In The Sun and the Moon and the Rolling Stones is this line: "According to Oldham, Brian just didn't have it. He prospered when musicianship was everything, but struggled when writing became paramount." p 105

Which echoes Bill in his coffee-table Stones book: "Brian had more musical talent than the rest of the Stones combined." Combined!

Am I supposed to tell an aspiring 13-year-old rock musician, "You'll only hurt yourself learning how to read notated music." (Keith actually said in a guitar magazine that he briefly learned some musical notation but quickly forgot it, thinking it interfered with his gut feel.)

Quote
Title5Take1
In The Sun and the Moon and the Rolling Stones is this line: "According to Oldham, Brian just didn't have it. He prospered when musicianship was everything, but struggled when writing became paramount." p 105

Which echoes Bill in his coffee-table Stones book: "Brian had more musical talent than the rest of the Stones combined." Combined!

Am I supposed to tell an aspiring 13-year-old rock musician, "You'll only hurt yourself learning how to read notated music." (Keith actually said in a guitar magazine that he briefly learned some musical notation but quickly forgot it, thinking it interfered with his gut feel.)

Not necessarily - But as a musician who did learn to read music (but never uses the knowledge), my observation is that players who are given formal training USUALLY (not always) play as they were TAUGHT to play. Players who pick it up on their own play how they FEEL - which in the end is what makes for a worthwhile artist. That's why I'd rather listen to Keith Richards than some session ace who could look at the sheet music to something and play it like a robot...Just my opinionated self's opinion...

Keith is a great musician.
You hear this is sports sometimes, that athlete so-and-so isn't a great athlete, implying that he gets it down with grit and determination and magic pixie dust. It's silly.
All of them are great musicians, Jagger included. They wouldn't have played with each other if not.

Quote
wonderboy
Keith is a great musician.
You hear this is sports sometimes, that athlete so-and-so isn't a great athlete, implying that he gets it down with grit and determination and magic pixie dust. It's silly.
All of them are great musicians, Jagger included. They wouldn't have played with each other if not.

You are exactly right...but there are snobs out there who would say you're not a great musician unless you can read music and play very difficult pieces....which I feel is a huge load of rubbish!

brian wasn't a "trained musician" any more than keith was-

what bill was talking about was that brian just had a knack for playing instruments-he could pick up anything and be playing it very well in a couple of days.

he played the sax on a beatles song for instance,you would'nt think of brian and saxophone right away,his gift was in that sort of ability.john lennon was very fond of brian and i think was the first one to say"he's his own worst enemy'.also the flutes,harpsicord etc that you hear on the mid-60's stones songs were played by him as well.

he couldn't write songs that we know of,he didn't live long enough to ever know for sure.when you die at 26 you run the risk of others stating your place in history and mick and keith have had no problem talking up brians downside while barely mentioning the flavor he added to to their mid-sixties catalague with a rainbow of instuments.

proof brian's music lives on HOT ROCKS IS THERE BEST SELLING ALBUM,mick & keith never talk about his music,sad,sad, this is life.

I've always had half a theory that extremely talented musicians of Brian's ilk get off more on the physical playing of the instrument than they do on the music itself.

I've known a couple of guys like that. Can play any new instrument they pick up within half an hour... and play them a piece of music once and they'll play it straight back at you.

The same guys on the other hand didn't have much imagination when it came to coming up with anything new or different of their own composition.

Yes, Brian participated in quite a lot of experimental music... but I suspect his instinctive interest in instruments & musical forms was more cerebral than emotional.

Does this make any sense ?

[As an afterthought, the guys I knew were also both a little awkward socially and very difficult to "know".
I'm very loathe to use the word but they were maybe borderline autistic.


There's obviously a very broad spectrum... and I wouldn't pretend to know a great deal about it

...but maybe Brian fits that template too ? ]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-05-25 10:33 by Spud.

Quote
kish_stoned
proof brian's music lives on HOT ROCKS IS THERE BEST SELLING ALBUM,mick & keith never talk about his music,sad,sad, this is life.

A good part of the songs in their setlists are Brian era songs. They speak for themselves:

Jumping Jack Flash
Street Fighting Man
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Let's Spend The Night Together
Gimmie Shelter
Honky Tonk Women
Paint It, Black
Midnight Rambler
Sympathy For The Devil
Ruby Tuesday
Satisfaction
You Got The Silver

Brian played on most of these songs, including Midnight Rambler and You Got The Silver.

Elvis Presley didn't wrote any songs so he can't sing ... is there anything like that Andrew is looking for when it comes to Brian?

2 1 2 0

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
kish_stoned
proof brian's music lives on HOT ROCKS IS THERE BEST SELLING ALBUM,mick & keith never talk about his music,sad,sad, this is life.

A good part of the songs in their setlists are Brian era songs. They speak for themselves:

Jumping Jack Flash
Street Fighting Man
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Let's Spend The Night Together
Gimmie Shelter
Honky Tonk Women
Paint It, Black
Midnight Rambler
Sympathy For The Devil
Ruby Tuesday
Satisfaction
You Got The Silver

Brian played on most of these songs, including Midnight Rambler and You Got The Silver.

Did Brian play on Gimme Shelter? I thought that was all Keith. And wasn't HTW the first thing Mick Taylor played on?

Brian didn't play on the track Gimmie Shelter, but he played on the same album.

There are many stories about the evolvement of HTW, and most likely Brian was around and played on it, before they recorded it. There is even an embryonic version, suspiciously similar to HTW, on the Satanic Sessions bootleg.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Brian didn't play on the track Gimmie Shelter, but he played on the same album.

There are many stories about the evolvement of HTW, and most likely Brian was around and played on it, before they recorded it. There is even an embryonic version, suspiciously similar to HTW, on the Satanic Sessions bootleg.

That's what I thought. Thanks DP!

My impression is that Mick and keith early on realized that they wanted to be a duo of songwriters like Leiber&Stoller or Lennon&McCartney; no need for anybodyelse. Once the duo started to roll out the tunes there was no way that format was going to be changed. Plus they enjoyed @#$%& with Brian's head.
Rock and roll,
Mops

Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
kish_stoned
proof brian's music lives on HOT ROCKS IS THERE BEST SELLING ALBUM,mick & keith never talk about his music,sad,sad, this is life.

A good part of the songs in their setlists are Brian era songs. They speak for themselves:

Jumping Jack Flash
Street Fighting Man
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Let's Spend The Night Together
Gimmie Shelter
Honky Tonk Women
Paint It, Black
Midnight Rambler
Sympathy For The Devil
Ruby Tuesday
Satisfaction
You Got The Silver

Brian played on most of these songs, including Midnight Rambler and You Got The Silver.

Did Brian play on Gimme Shelter? I thought that was all Keith. And wasn't HTW the first thing Mick Taylor played on?

And did he play on "You Can't Always Get What You Want"?

Quote
mtaylor

Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
kish_stoned
proof brian's music lives on HOT ROCKS IS THERE BEST SELLING ALBUM,mick & keith never talk about his music,sad,sad, this is life.

A good part of the songs in their setlists are Brian era songs. They speak for themselves:

Jumping Jack Flash
Street Fighting Man
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Let's Spend The Night Together
Gimmie Shelter
Honky Tonk Women
Paint It, Black
Midnight Rambler
Sympathy For The Devil
Ruby Tuesday
Satisfaction
You Got The Silver

Brian played on most of these songs, including Midnight Rambler and You Got The Silver.

Did Brian play on Gimme Shelter? I thought that was all Keith. And wasn't HTW the first thing Mick Taylor played on?

And did he play on "You Can't Always Get What You Want"?

Only on Rock'n'Roll Circus, hence it's a Brian era song.

I don't see the connection between the first part of the question (Brian's inability to write songs) and the second part (benefit of learning musical notation).

I think the point was just being made that although Jones may have had the talent and ability to master more musical instruments than Mick or Keith, he lacked their ability to create original songs. That really has nothing to do with the ability to read notated music.

Of course Brian was a trained musician. His mother was a friggin' piano teacher, and his dad played organ in the choir. Bill took piano lessons for a couple years when he was young, and Bill played synthesizer on a few Stones recordings.

Brian had otherworldly talent, and who knows how much of that came from musical training. But he certainly could do things the others couldn't touch. It was a combination of skill and feel. That's what enabled him to take slide parts like Little Red Rooster and I Can't Be Satisfied and walk them uptown without losing their funk.

After a while everything becomes a job and maybe when Brian felt his guitar playing was a job, he rebelled against it, like he'd rebelled against everything else.

I think there are many examples that show us that being a musical virtuoso does not
necessarily make you a gifted song writer. And the other way around is also true;
many great song writers are not really great instrumentalists.
It's just a different talent, song writing and playing an instrument.

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

Quote
Koen
I don't see the connection between the first part of the question (Brian's inability to write songs)
and the second part (benefit of learning musical notation).

Me neither.
Does the OP think that "writing songs" entails knowing musical notation? or the opposite??

I quit taking lessons after eight years because I wanted to learn how to improvise and write songs.

I'm glad I did both, though. Being able to read sheets come in handy in music at some point, no matter what

Quote
with sssoul

Quote
Koen
I don't see the connection between the first part of the question (Brian's inability to write songs)
and the second part (benefit of learning musical notation).

Me neither.
Does the OP think that "writing songs" entails knowing musical notation? or the opposite??

Good question. When I used to be in a band, writing songs entailed scribbling the guitar chords on top of the lyrics, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's not how most rockers do it. I did take some piano lessons and learned to read music when I was about 8 years old, but the knowledge never really served me much in the world of rock and roll.

Quote
24FPS
Of course Brian was a trained musician. His mother was a friggin' piano teacher, and his dad played organ in the choir. Bill took piano lessons for a couple years when he was young, and Bill played synthesizer on a few Stones recordings.

Brian had otherworldly talent, and who knows how much of that came from musical training. But he certainly could do things the others couldn't touch. It was a combination of skill and feel. That's what enabled him to take slide parts like Little Red Rooster and I Can't Be Satisfied and walk them uptown without losing their funk.

After a while everything becomes a job and maybe when Brian felt his guitar playing was a job, he rebelled against it, like he'd rebelled against everything else.

yeah that sounds pretty plausible and since his position in the band got pushed away from being a leader figure and all and he didn't really have anything to make "his own" (mick starting to play harmonica, keith on the guitar) personally i think he started experimenting with more instruments, often unusual or exotic, to feel like he had something of his own and that he brought something significant to the group, instead of being the "secondary guitar player" or something of that kind.

and i do also think he poured a lot of his feelings into the instruments he played, if i remember correctly he once said something like "i only feel like myself when i'm playing an instrument/ i can only really be myself when i'm playing an instrument".

i'm still so upset that mick and especially keith just completely disregard brian's very existence and importance to the band, it's pretty disrespectful imo considering brian was the one who actually formed the band, gave it it's name, got them gigs in the beginning and contributed greatly to almost all of their greatest hits.
he can't even be here to defend himself much less tell his truth and side of the story! he's already in a coffin 10ft under ground you can't bury him more then he already is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-05-26 21:25 by annajulia.

No doubt Brian was vital to the creation of the Stones and their attitude and style.
But once Mick and Keith started writing songs, it didn't really matter who the other guitar player was. They wrote great songs with Brian, Ronnie, Mick Taylor playing guitar, also with guests like Harvey Mandel and Wayne Perkins, also with Keith taking all the parts, even some with Jagger playing guitar.
The songwriting and arranging are the key things.

Quote
wonderboy
No doubt Brian was vital to the creation of the Stones and their attitude and style.
But once Mick and Keith started writing songs, it didn't really matter who the other guitar player was. They wrote great songs with Brian, Ronnie, Mick Taylor playing guitar, also with guests like Harvey Mandel and Wayne Perkins, also with Keith taking all the parts, even some with Jagger playing guitar.
The songwriting and arranging are the key things.

So if the songwriting aint happening any more......what is left?

Quote
jlowe

Quote
wonderboy
No doubt Brian was vital to the creation of the Stones and their attitude and style.
But once Mick and Keith started writing songs, it didn't really matter who the other guitar player was. They wrote great songs with Brian, Ronnie, Mick Taylor playing guitar, also with guests like Harvey Mandel and Wayne Perkins, also with Keith taking all the parts, even some with Jagger playing guitar.
The songwriting and arranging are the key things.

So if the songwriting aint happening any more......what is left?

Like most bands, playing "greatest hits" concerts and earning lots of money and having fun.

Brian was a great musician / the best of them all and was vital in the beginning of the Stones era.

He had a fragile personality, couldn't handle fame and that he wasn't the star in the band. He got caught in drugs and drinking, that was the end of his career and life. Unfortunately.

An interesting question - what would have happened to Keith, if he had not been arrested in Toronto, would he have continued with drugs and....

Somehow, the case in Toronto was a "wake-up call" to him and he got rid of heroin and Anita, else he might have passed away.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-05-27 01:10 by mtaylor.

that's the company line-that brian had a "fragile personality" and couldn't handle the fortune and fame.

but is that really true? he was screwed up on drugs and not functioning very well but how many times has that happened to keith,charlie and ronnie and they've had their ass covered?

in one plus one we see brian playing on tracks for beggars banquet and we also see him passed out, i've seen plenty of pictures of other members of the band in the same condition.as dandy said he also was playing pretty well at the rock and roll circus.

it's part of the tragedy of brians death that we never got to hear his side of things.what i do know is that when lennon,mccartney or bill wyman spoke of him it had a bit of a different tone than mick or keiths.

Brian was an imaginative musician but an erratic human being.
Like he just got lost in himself when it came to respecting other people.
One cannot blame the other Stones, for example, when it came to the
terrible way he treated young woman and his assorted children.

Great responses. Most got that my "question" was sort of "impressionistic," in the hopes of impressionistic answers (anecdotal, opinionated, etc.), which have been very interesting.

I've marveled at the Doors being among the most trained among rock bands, but it was the totally untrained member—Jim Morrison—who started as the main song writer, until one day he told the other Doors, "I'm tired of writing all the songs. You come up with something." And Robby Krieger's first-ever-written song was Light My Fire. But Jim continued as a major songwriter. Imagine a previously unmusical buddy of yours saying, "This summer I wrote some poems in my head, and attached melodies to them so as not to forget the words, and they've ended up songs. I'd like to find a singer to sing them." That was Jim on Venice Beach. Good thing he told Ray Manzarek and not a Berklee College of Music professor.