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DandelionPowderman

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Come On

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Doxa

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Rank Stranger
One track less? In Germany we are used to it!
Over here the previous EP "Five By Five" despite the title had only four songs!
And the live shows in 1973 were shorter than their counterparts from the 72 tour, but I digress...

But hey, you got your own album in 1964 - AROUND AND AROUND - a great compilation of their early British singles and EP tracks! (and was "2120 Sth Michican Avanue" even that longer one...). With that you didn't have any use for their fisrt two EPs...

- Doxa

Phew! Yeah, but without live-version of 'Route 66' poooor germans...

Luckily they got December's Children

December's Children is not an original German LP, but an USA release.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-06 21:49 by Rank Stranger.

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Rank Stranger

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DandelionPowderman

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Come On

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Doxa

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Rank Stranger
One track less? In Germany we are used to it!
Over here the previous EP "Five By Five" despite the title had only four songs!
And the live shows in 1973 were shorter than their counterparts from the 72 tour, but I digress...

But hey, you got your own album in 1964 - AROUND AND AROUND - a great compilation of their early British singles and EP tracks! (and was "2120 Sth Michican Avanue" even that longer one...). With that you didn't have any use for their fisrt two EPs...

- Doxa

Phew! Yeah, but without live-version of 'Route 66' poooor germans...

Luckily they got December's Children

December's Children is not an original German LP, but an USA release.

But distributed worldwide.

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DandelionPowderman

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Rank Stranger

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DandelionPowderman

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Come On

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Doxa

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Rank Stranger
One track less? In Germany we are used to it!
Over here the previous EP "Five By Five" despite the title had only four songs!
And the live shows in 1973 were shorter than their counterparts from the 72 tour, but I digress...

But hey, you got your own album in 1964 - AROUND AND AROUND - a great compilation of their early British singles and EP tracks! (and was "2120 Sth Michican Avanue" even that longer one...). With that you didn't have any use for their fisrt two EPs...

- Doxa

Phew! Yeah, but without live-version of 'Route 66' poooor germans...

Luckily they got December's Children

December's Children is not an original German LP, but an USA release.

But distributed worldwide.

But only if you could find a shop that dealt in imports.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Interestingly, all three UK EPs were issued in North America but only in Canada and with the UK catalogue numbers.



[www.45cat.com]
[www.45cat.com]
[www.45cat.com]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

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Rank Stranger
Top review (again!), Doxa!

Especially the "You can't fake that youthful energy..." chapter.

Reminds me that I would love to hear that live recording from the earlier days made by the bassist from Jeff Beck's group!

By the way, years ago I read somewhere that "'I'm Moving On" isn't a live recording, but what the heck!

This is one of the best releaes by the band!

yes i read that too.i'm moving on recorded at chess june 1964

The EP version is great! I always loved the Everybody Needs Somebody transition to Pain In My Heart. Nice raw sounding early Stones!

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vancouver


yes i read that too.i'm moving on recorded at chess june 1964

They may have recorded the song then, but no way is it what was included on the EP.

Whether I'm Moving On is live or not, it's a highlight of the Jones-era catalogue. Route 66 is also excellent. What a brilliant live band they were at this time.

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Rank Stranger
I presume you are all aware that there's some more exciting live stuff from this tour on the "Charlie Is My Darling" soundtrack.
Please don't get me wrong, I really love this stuff, but all live?
There are some doubts.
From Wikipedia: [en.wikipedia.org]

Quote:
"Renowned for its raw-sounding quality, got LIVE if you want it! has endured as a live artifact, more for its historical than musical appeal. Reportedly engineer Glyn Johns had hung microphones over the balcony for the recording; however, this is called into question as "I'm Alright" on the Got Live If You Want It! LP (recorded and released a year later) contains the same backing track but with different vocals. This would have been impossible if the recordings were made as described. Additionally, "I'm Moving On" features (at the very least) a harmonica overdub as the instrument can be heard underneath Jagger's vocal during the first verse while Brian Jones (the group's other harmonica player) is playing slide guitar. These two tracks may even be studio recordings re-tooled to give the impression of being live. The lack of studio documentation relating to The Stones' Decca recordings makes this difficult to confirm but this approach was used the following year on the US Got Live If You Want It! LP."

I've listened the track with that in mind, and no, I can't heard that. The only harmonica I can hear is the solo and and the outro, neither clashing with Mick's vocals (that is: Jagger plays them). I've listened some other live version of the song as well, and the arrangement is the same there:

[www.youtube.com]

The issue with "I'm Alright" is a bit odd I admit. Seemingly the backing track is the same in the US LP version of the same title. THe vocals there are, of course, over-dubbed (like is with "Time Is On My Side" from the same source - done initially to the UK EP). Is that technically impossible - none of the original vocals to be heard/being rejected - I don't know.

- Doxa

Glyn supposedly had 3 tracks, one for the band, one for the crowd... one for vocals < a direct feed.

I recall comparing some of the suspect recordings and the backings were not exactly the same through the whole of a particular track. When there were vocal differences there were also differences in guitars, bass, drums.

This suggests they possibly spliced/edited together different recordings of particular tracks for I'm Alright etc.

I might be recalling that wrong though.

...

Overdubs/edits or not, what is worth noting is that, aside from sound quality, there's really nothing wrong or anything that feels wrong when you compare these 1965 official releases with bootleg recordings from same era.

We don't hear any live vocals bleeding through ala Ya-Ya's.

...

I guess it is likely they are not 100% true live as it happened recordings, but any additions, atleast for the EP, have been handled well...

or

... maybe they are all raw in studio recordings with audience screams looped on. ><

They definitely did some funky trickery for Live 1965/CIMD live release.

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His Majesty
Glyn supposedly had 3 tracks, one for the band, one for the crowd... one for vocals < a direct feed.

I recall comparing some of the suspect recordings and the backings were not exactly the same through the whole of a particular track. When there were vocal differences there were also differences in guitars, bass, drums.

This suggests they possibly spliced/edited together different recordings of particular tracks for I'm Alright etc.

I might be recalling that wrong though.

...

Overdubs/edits or not, what is worth noting is that, aside from sound quality, there's really nothing wrong or anything that feels wrong when you compare these 1965 official releases with bootleg recordings from same era.

We don't hear any live vocals bleeding through ala Ya-Ya's.

...

I guess it is likely they are not 100% true live as it happened recordings, but any additions, atleast for the EP, have been handled well...

or

... maybe they are all raw in studio recordings with audience screams looped on. ><

They definitely did some funky trickery for Live 1965/CIMD live release.

If so, it's a bit easier to do with today's technology, though.

Yeah, definitely.

Until the release of the Edmonton (London, U.K.) show that formed part of the deluxe Charlie Is My Darling set, the Stones' third and final Decca EP was the only real, genuine live-release from the 'Brian era' Perhaps I am being a little cruel towards it's U.S. namesake, but the London LP is poor in comparison. A different tour, of course. The problem with your latter is the rushed-feel and the unfortunate overdubbing of unreleased studio-takes. No, the Got Live If You Want It! EP is an essential slice of primal, rock n' roll; sheer exciting and exhilaration. The greatest live rock n' roll act of 1965, surely? Only The Who could've matched them then, I would say.

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Big Al
Until the release of the Edmonton (London, U.K.) show that formed part of the deluxe Charlie Is My Darling set, the Stones' third and final Decca EP was the only real, genuine live-release from the 'Brian era' Perhaps I am being a little cruel towards it's U.S. namesake, but the London LP is poor in comparison. A different tour, of course. The problem with your latter is the rushed-feel and the unfortunate overdubbing of unreleased studio-takes. No, the Got Live If You Want It! EP is an essential slice of primal, rock n' roll; sheer exciting and exhilaration. The greatest live rock n' roll act of 1965, surely? Only The Who could've matched them then, I would say.

Well said

Weren't the Charlie Is My Darling and GRRR (with the Camden 1964-show)-releases released almost simultaneously round November 2012, or is my memory playing tricks on me?

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Doxa

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Rank Stranger
I presume you are all aware that there's some more exciting live stuff from this tour on the "Charlie Is My Darling" soundtrack.
Please don't get me wrong, I really love this stuff, but all live?
There are some doubts.
From Wikipedia: [en.wikipedia.org]

Quote:
"Renowned for its raw-sounding quality, got LIVE if you want it! has endured as a live artifact, more for its historical than musical appeal. Reportedly engineer Glyn Johns had hung microphones over the balcony for the recording; however, this is called into question as "I'm Alright" on the Got Live If You Want It! LP (recorded and released a year later) contains the same backing track but with different vocals. This would have been impossible if the recordings were made as described. Additionally, "I'm Moving On" features (at the very least) a harmonica overdub as the instrument can be heard underneath Jagger's vocal during the first verse while Brian Jones (the group's other harmonica player) is playing slide guitar. These two tracks may even be studio recordings re-tooled to give the impression of being live. The lack of studio documentation relating to The Stones' Decca recordings makes this difficult to confirm but this approach was used the following year on the US Got Live If You Want It! LP."

I've listened the track with that in mind, and no, I can't heard that. The only harmonica I can hear is the solo and and the outro, neither clashing with Mick's vocals (that is: Jagger plays them). I've listened some other live version of the song as well, and the arrangement is the same there:

[www.youtube.com]

The issue with "I'm Alright" is a bit odd I admit. Seemingly the backing track is the same in the US LP version of the same title. THe vocals there are, of course, over-dubbed (like is with "Time Is On My Side" from the same source - done initially to the UK EP). Is that technically impossible - none of the original vocals to be heard/being rejected - I don't know.

- Doxa

I wondered about the harmonica a long time ago. See [www.iorr.org]

At the very end you can hear Mick shout 'Auw' while the harmonica goes on.

RnT

^ It might not be Mick.

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DandelionPowderman

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Big Al
Until the release of the Edmonton (London, U.K.) show that formed part of the deluxe Charlie Is My Darling set, the Stones' third and final Decca EP was the only real, genuine live-release from the 'Brian era' Perhaps I am being a little cruel towards it's U.S. namesake, but the London LP is poor in comparison. A different tour, of course. The problem with your latter is the rushed-feel and the unfortunate overdubbing of unreleased studio-takes. No, the Got Live If You Want It! EP is an essential slice of primal, rock n' roll; sheer exciting and exhilaration. The greatest live rock n' roll act of 1965, surely? Only The Who could've matched them then, I would say.

Well said

Weren't the Charlie Is My Darling and GRRR (with the Camden 1964-show)-releases released almost simultaneously round November 2012, or is my memory playing
tricks on me?

Thank you

I'm not sure off-hand, but they were released around the same time as each other. The holy grail of 'Brian era' live performances is surely the 1968 NME Pollwinners. Even if it were to just be a scratchy audio release, I think we'd all snap it up! The fact that it was actually filmed - whole thing or partially - and partially broadcasted on British regional television, can only make one constantly wonder over the possibility of its existence.

I'd suggest the holy grail of Brian era "live" is Bill's Radio Luxembourg acetate. An album length set recorded live at the Radio Luxembourg studios from March 64 featuring several otherwise unrecorded titles in studio quality without screams.
We don't even know that NME 68 exists for sure.
Unfortunately the fact that it was broadcast in full or partially means very little in terms of it's survival. I've been working on a couple of Radio/TV projects the last 2 or 3 years. Despair sunk in a long time ago regarding surviving UK TV appearances by all and sundry. It really is bleak. I've chased bits of footage around the world so to speak. It's a bummer.
Not impossible though so chin up... there are "private collections" and those unknown "private collections" contain some fabulous stuff, certainly from an audio point of view.
Back on topic, I am not convinced this EP is entirely live. Even if I'm Moving On is a studio cut with overdubbed screams it's still brilliant. The reverb on the harmonica does not sound like a British studio does it ? I thought Glyn mixed it in the UK. Could it be a roughed up RCA/Chess cut ?
Plus i saw a setlist / review from this UK tour and it did not feature I'm Moving On but that could have been a journalist error.
Doesn't matter though. I have a Louis Armstrong EP that has an overdubbed audience - loved it since i was 2 ...found out it was fake live and it still blows my tits off 45 years later. I'd be happy to put I'm Moving On in that section.

I'm Moving On was played several times on the 1965 UK and European tours.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

The IMO version on Live In England '65 is a different version as well. Brian is even more prominent in the mix on that version.

Oh yeah in Germany for sure but i remember reading a review (possibly in NME) detailing the EP plans and listing what the Stones had played (at Edmonton????) and Moving On was not listed - could have been an error/omission though.
What does anyone think of the reverb on the mouth organ - sure isn't Regent Sound is it ? IBC maybe ?
gonna give it a good listen tonight - that's not much of a punishment is it ?!

The recording could have come from Liverpool or Manchester. The version on Live 1965 sounds very different.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

That 'Live in England '65' or whatever it's called, is just as good, if not better. A live version of Little Red Rooster that really stings, and an equally good I'm Movin' On.

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24FPS
That 'Live in England '65' or whatever it's called, is just as good, if not better. A live version of Little Red Rooster that really stings, and an equally good I'm Movin' On.

So true!

I was always under the impression that most of these tracks were infact recorded live at Newcastle and Bristol although made to look like The Royal Albert Hall.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-09 22:08 by geordiestone.

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geordiestone
I was always under the impression that most of these tracks were infact recorded live at Newcastle and Bristol although made to look like The Royal Albert Hall.

You're thinking of the LP of the same name


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Ah yes, thank you i see.

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ash
I'd suggest the holy grail of Brian era "live" is Bill's Radio Luxembourg acetate. An album length set recorded live at the Radio Luxembourg studios from March 64 featuring several otherwise unrecorded titles in studio quality without screams.
We don't even know that NME 68 exists for sure.
Unfortunately the fact that it was broadcast in full or partially means very little in terms of it's survival. I've been working on a couple of Radio/TV projects the last 2 or 3 years. Despair sunk in a long time ago regarding surviving UK TV appearances by all and sundry. It really is bleak. I've chased bits of footage around the world so to speak. It's a bummer.
Not impossible though so chin up... there are "private collections" and those unknown "private collections" contain some fabulous stuff, certainly from an audio point of view.

I wholeheartedly agree with your suggestion! While the NME 1968's almost mythical status derives more or less from the fact that it was Brian's last concert appearance and the live debut of JJF, considering the length (two songs only) and choice of musical material I would not rate it higher than the fabled Circus warm-up tracks "Route 66" and "Confession the Blues", while the Radio Luxembourg recordings offer, as you have already correctly stated, offer "an album length set recorded live at the Radio Luxembourg studios from March 64 featuring several otherwise unrecorded titles in studio quality without screams".

I've once heard that a tape of these recordings was once offered through a "mysterious telephone call" to Swingin' Pig in Luxembourg back in the day for a hefty sum, but when asked to send in or hand over a sample tape of snippets of each song to check it's authenticity, the person in question never showed up - could very well have been an attempted scam though.

On a sad note, it was depressing to hear that when Radio Luxembourg finally called it a day, their entire archive was simply discarded. This information, again, came from the Swingin' Pig's luxembourg lawyer who was a close friend of Radio Luxembourg's (last) director.

Of course it is still possible that some of their tapes and other materials were rescued from the dustbin by certain individuals with a foresight, but after all these decades, I would guess that at least something would have showed up already in one form or another.

One can only hope that the master tape or at least a tape copy of the 1964 Radio Luxembourg session still survives in the band's personal archives, but if not, I'm afraid that Bill's acetate represents the sole surviving artefact from this session. An extremely precious historical artefact, no doubt about it.

To round it up, I must say that I've always had the suspicion that the circulating version of "Reelin' And Rockin'" that mysteriously popped up a decade ago is not a Chess Studio outtake as claimed, but originated from the Radio Luxembourg 1964 session instead because it simply does not sound like a Chess studio recording, more like a "live in the studio" rough mix for radio broadcasting purposes, not unlike, quite similar in fact to the BBC material. Any thoughts on this?

The status of the Radio Luxembourg archive is worse than the BBC's 1950's/60's archive of pop. Not possible i hear you cry, but it's true.
Many artists made radio series for Radio Luxembourg, sometimes just recording intros for records, other times recording huge numbers of tunes for 13 week series shows of 1/4 hr or 1/2 hr. Sadly, most of these recordings were ditched pretty quickly as stipulated by contracts. Some were re-used in subsequent series but then dumped. Paperwork and tapes are all gone so decent research and tape hunting is "a bit tricky".
Off air tapes do exist but the fluctuating reception in the UK means that sometimes it's difficult to tell if that's Cliff Richard and The Drifters playing an otherwise unreleased tune or an irritating high pitched whine overdubbed with static on a reel to reel powered by dying batteries. Some of you will say those 2 are the same thing.
That acetate of Bill's is a serious UK pop artifact. That it features an album of studio quality tunes by the Stones with Brian at a time when they had their shit together and were seriously kicking ass makes it all the more important.
As for Reelin and Rockin', i'll have to re-listen. It'd be very surprising if it's a Luxy track.
I've got to take the cat to the vet. Bye

The U.S. has AFRTS (Armed Forces Radio Television Service), a worldwide network of radio & TV stations around the globe. Now it's been supplanted by a satellite system, but they used to send out LPs and popular filmed TV shows. I'm pretty positive I helped Johnny Carson's estate hunt down a famous Dean Martin/Bob Hope/George Gobel appearance from the late 60s that did not exist in videotape, but a filmed copy was found in the AFRTS archives.

Did the Brits have such a media service for its various military bases around the world? There could be some treasures.