Hi. Does anyone know what Keith/Mick T. used to get the really cool guitar sound on the studio version of Sister Morphine? The part I'm talking about starts at 0:57, and it sounds like a slide is definitely being used, but does anyone know what kind of guitar/what pedal/what tuning? Any advice would be really appreciated. Thanks very much

Ry Cooder used his slide, if it's the electric guitar you're asking about. A dry, but punchy sound. Don't know which amp, though. No Taylor on this track. Keith on acoustic.

Sounds to me like an open G tuned guitar probably close and distant mic'ed played though a small but loud guitar amp, possibly a Fender Twin Reverb. The amp may have been put in a small room or booth to get that more natural sounding reverb. Just a guess I have no factual information about that session except that it was Ry Cooder playing as DP has stated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-03 02:25 by Naturalust.

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DandelionPowderman
Ry Cooder used his slide, if it's the electric guitar you're asking about. A dry, but punchy sound. Don't know which amp, though. No Taylor on this track. Keith on acoustic.

Oh it's Ry Cooder? Cool, thanks

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Naturalust
Sounds to me like an open G tuned guitar probably close and distant mic'ed played though a small but loud guitar amp, possibly a Fender Twin Reverb. The amp may have been put in a small room or booth to get that more natural sounding reverb. Just a guess I have no factual information about that session except that it was Ry Cooder playing as DP has stated.

Thank you!

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DandelionPowderman
Ry Cooder used his slide, if it's the electric guitar you're asking about. A dry, but punchy sound. Don't know which amp, though. No Taylor on this track. Keith on acoustic.

Sounds pretty wet to me my friend. One of the things that makes it stick out so much from the rest of the track.

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Naturalust
Sounds to me like an open G tuned guitar probably close and distant mic'ed played though a small but loud guitar amp, possibly a Fender Twin Reverb. The amp may have been put in a small room or booth to get that more natural sounding reverb. Just a guess I have no factual information about that session except that it was Ry Cooder playing as DP has stated.

You consider a Twin small!!! Damn !! I will agree that they are loud.

Open-g, probably capoed at the 2nd fret.

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jabhead

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Naturalust
Sounds to me like an open G tuned guitar probably close and distant mic'ed played though a small but loud guitar amp, possibly a Fender Twin Reverb. The amp may have been put in a small room or booth to get that more natural sounding reverb. Just a guess I have no factual information about that session except that it was Ry Cooder playing as DP has stated.

You consider a Twin small!!! Damn !! I will agree that they are loud.

Yeah, anything one guy can carry into the studio or venue with only one trip is small. lol. The move away from the stacks of Ampegs and Marshalls and using the PA to amplify the sound from smaller amps has caused a big improvement in live sound, imo. Some guys even put a pexiglass shield in front of their amps to keep the stage sound coming from the amps at a reasonable level and allow the FOH mixer more control over the sound getting to the whole audience.

As a live sound mixer I have often had to turn the guitars down in the mix in order to balance to overall sound to the audience in theaters and other smaller venues because the amps from the stage were so loud! It's why some soundboard mixes have less guitar volume because the board and PA isn't needed to achieve the best sound balance for the house.

My personal favorite amps these days are tube amps with lower wattages which get great tone without being too loud for other instruments and overpowering the monitor signals. My Marshall stacks have been collecting dust for years!

I just looked at the timeisonourside site and found this quote from Mick Taylor about the Sticky Fingers sessions. Confirms they used some Twins! And it's very possibly that tight echo was used on Ry's slide part for Sister Morphine.

They'd master things really, really hot. It's not that we played incredibly loud in the studio; we used to use small amps. Most of the time we'd use Fender Twin Reverbs. There's a certain kind of tape echo that they used to use a lot when Jimmy Miller was producing records for them, like a Revox echo. That's the kind of echo that's on the guitar intro from Can't You Hear Me Knocking and a few other things. If you listen you can hear it - it's a very fast, tight echo.

- Mick Taylor, 1979

This picture is fantastic.
Here something about Sister Morphine from Sean Egan' 'The making of Let it Bleed'






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-03 10:34 by pepganzo.

CYHMK is wet, SM is dry for that kind of distortion. Sounds like a Fender indeed, but not sure about the Twin. Mathijs?

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pepganzo


This picture is fantastic.
Here something about Sister Morphine from Sean Egan' 'The making of Let it Bleed'

Cool! Thanks very much for posting that

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Naturalust

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jabhead

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Naturalust
Sounds to me like an open G tuned guitar probably close and distant mic'ed played though a small but loud guitar amp, possibly a Fender Twin Reverb. The amp may have been put in a small room or booth to get that more natural sounding reverb. Just a guess I have no factual information about that session except that it was Ry Cooder playing as DP has stated.

You consider a Twin small!!! Damn !! I will agree that they are loud.

Yeah, anything one guy can carry into the studio or venue with only one trip is small. lol. The move away from the stacks of Ampegs and Marshalls and using the PA to amplify the sound from smaller amps has caused a big improvement in live sound, imo. Some guys even put a pexiglass shield in front of their amps to keep the stage sound coming from the amps at a reasonable level and allow the FOH mixer more control over the sound getting to the whole audience.

Good grief, I wondered about that. It's fun to crank it up but I've always much more enjoyed having my amps not so loud but having the monitor just loud enough. A little wiggle room is nice.

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Naturalust
As a live sound mixer I have often had to turn the guitars down in the mix in order to balance to overall sound to the audience in theaters and other smaller venues because the amps from the stage were so loud! It's why some soundboard mixes have less guitar volume because the board and PA isn't needed to achieve the best sound balance for the house.

I've done sound here and there and have always focused on having the kick drum and snare being the highest thing in the mix musically - if the band is good and it's more blues than heavy. Of course in small rooms it's way too easy for someone with a Twin or small Marshall to overpower everything so the vocals always end up on the verge of having that dog whistle cheese grating feedback the room.

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Naturalust
My personal favorite amps these days are tube amps with lower wattages which get great tone without being too loud for other instruments and overpowering the monitor signals. My Marshall stacks have been collecting dust for years!

The only Marshall stack I have is one of those minis, the battery powered ones. I do have a Marshall Guv'nor stomp box though. I like those. They're great. No need to lug the stack around when you can just have a stomp box.

I played for years with a Super in the States (until I smartened up one night after talking to someone from DBT and got the Hot Rod). Unfortunately in Europe I was always stuck with a Twin. I can't stand a Twin - way too loud and way too clean! No wiggle room! (I guess I like that term, eh?) Once I got a grip on the Hot Rod I stopped using the Super. It's way too much of a hassle to drag around and I'm not interested in beating myself up lugging that goddamned boat anchor around. Besides, the reverb in it sucks, which is hilarious. It's strictly a studio amp now. If I ever run across a Deluxe that's not too expensive I'll pick one of them up since they're a good mix between a Super and a Hot Rod.

I did a gig once a few years back where I brought my Hot Rod Deluxe as a backup(!) and my Champ as my main and one person in particular could not believe I was playing through the Champ for a gig (they also didn't like the sound of it but country singers are generally music idiots anyway ha ha). The beauty of a Champ is it's quiet. So with a good sound dude...

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DandelionPowderman
CYHMK is wet, SM is dry for that kind of distortion. Sounds like a Fender indeed, but not sure about the Twin. Mathijs?

Well with the obvious roomy feel from the reverb/delay used on the slide track compared to everything else in the mix, I'd call it pretty wet. Hard to say what combination of distant mic'ing and/or effects were used to get the sound. CYHMK is way less reverb type delay and more of a super tight single bounce delay to fatten up the track with considerable more guitar amp distortion to my ears. Probably recorded with a close mic'ed distorted amp and the tight delay added in the mix.

It's all subjective but if someone asked me which was wetter I'd say the Sister Morphine track.

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stones2000

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pepganzo


This picture is fantastic.
Here something about Sister Morphine from Sean Egan' 'The making of Let it Bleed'

Cool! Thanks very much for posting that

You are always welcome Stones2000

At 2,17 in comes the ...what? I've played this a million times but can't work out how this sound is made. Is it a keyboard with a chimes effect? If anyone has detailed knowledge of this I'd be grateful,
It's almost a harpsichord but with undertones of a threat,

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Naturalust

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DandelionPowderman
CYHMK is wet, SM is dry for that kind of distortion. Sounds like a Fender indeed, but not sure about the Twin. Mathijs?

Well with the obvious roomy feel from the reverb/delay used on the slide track compared to everything else in the mix, I'd call it pretty wet. Hard to say what combination of distant mic'ing and/or effects were used to get the sound. CYHMK is way less reverb type delay and more of a super tight single bounce delay to fatten up the track with considerable more guitar amp distortion to my ears. Probably recorded with a close mic'ed distorted amp and the tight delay added in the mix.

It's all subjective but if someone asked me which was wetter I'd say the Sister Morphine track.

We're talking about two different things. It's correct technically that straight from the amp-sound can be called dry, and sound with added effects can be called wet. But this is only 50 percent of what we're discussing.

BECAUSE: There also is a listening aspect to this ie the outcome of the sound. In the world of the listener (not merely the technical terms) a sound may sound wet or dry. Here the adjectives are used to describe what we hear. For instance, Bill's bouncing bass has more than once been described as «rubber-sounding».

It's within this I use the terms wet and dry, and I know many others do that.

Another example: On his guitar solo on Terrifying, Ronnie has a very dry sound. He uses a lot of reverb and probably other effects on it.

On Winning Ugly, Keith plays practically without reverb, little sustain and no overdrive. Still, his sound is dripping wet.

Ry Cooder has indeed a clever mic-ing and tonnes of reverb on his SM guitar, and it sounds wonderful. But the sound, what we hear, is a crisp, dry and sharp sound, whilst Keith on CYHMK gives us dirt, grit, mud and a fat, wet sound.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-05 10:55 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

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Naturalust

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DandelionPowderman
CYHMK is wet, SM is dry for that kind of distortion. Sounds like a Fender indeed, but not sure about the Twin. Mathijs?

Well with the obvious roomy feel from the reverb/delay used on the slide track compared to everything else in the mix, I'd call it pretty wet. Hard to say what combination of distant mic'ing and/or effects were used to get the sound. CYHMK is way less reverb type delay and more of a super tight single bounce delay to fatten up the track with considerable more guitar amp distortion to my ears. Probably recorded with a close mic'ed distorted amp and the tight delay added in the mix.

It's all subjective but if someone asked me which was wetter I'd say the Sister Morphine track.

We're talking about two different things. It's correct technically that straight from the amp-sound can be called dry, and sound with added effects can be called wet. But this is only 50 percent of what we're discussing.

BECAUSE: There also is a listening aspect to this ie the outcome of the sound. In the world of the listener (not merely the technical terms) a sound may sound wet or dry. Here the adjectives are used to describe what we hear. For instance, Bill's bouncing bass has more than once been described as «rubber-sounding».

It's within this I use the terms wet and dry, and I know many others do that.

Another example: On his guitar solo on Terrifying, Ronnie has a very dry sound. He uses a lot of reverb and probably other effects on it.

On Winning Ugly, Keith plays practically without reverb, little sustain and no overdrive. Still, his sound is dripping wet.

Ry Cooder has indeed a clever mic-ing and tonnes of reverb on his SM guitar, and it sounds wonderful. But the sound, what we hear, is a crisp, dry and sharp sound, whilst Keith on CYHMK gives us dirt, grit, mud and a fat, wet sound.

Ok I understand your use of the terms but from my perspective it's a bit simpler that that. Dry just means uneffected and wet means additional effects are added. Effects can come from the amp, stomp boxes or other outboard gear either in the tracking or mixing stage and can be of any type, distortion, reverb delay, etc.

No one I know would ever call a signal with reverb on it, dry. The grey area if any may be the overdriven sounds some amps make when they are turned up loud. This is clearly an "effect" but in studio terms the signal is still considered dry. But when things like master volumes are used to get distortion, some people might describe the sound as wet, especially if there is another feed coming from the preamp which is not distorted.

So I don't use the terms as adjectives to describe the final sound of what I'm hearing as much as just whether or not the signal is effected or not. That's pretty standard studio speak here in the USA.

So it's possible Ry's slide was recorded dry with a distant mic to get the reverb/delay effect but I'm guessing he used some amp reverb and/or effects were added in the mix.

You are describing the signals, not the sound per se. But that's all right. I use the same terms as you do when describing the signals.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-05 19:45 by DandelionPowderman.

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bathsheba
At 2,17 in comes the ...what? I've played this a million times but can't work out how this sound is made. Is it a keyboard with a chimes effect? If anyone has detailed knowledge of this I'd be grateful,
It's almost a harpsichord but with undertones of a threat,

Well, I'm learning a lot about wet and dry. Perhaps my question is too dumb?

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bathsheba

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bathsheba
At 2,17 in comes the ...what? I've played this a million times but can't work out how this sound is made. Is it a keyboard with a chimes effect? If anyone has detailed knowledge of this I'd be grateful,
It's almost a harpsichord but with undertones of a threat,

Well, I'm learning a lot about wet and dry. Perhaps my question is too dumb?

The problem is that Nitzche isn't credited on other things than piano. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that he played harpsichord or something similar that created that sound, though.

A piano, Bathsheba. As wet as an ocean.

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z
A piano, Bathsheba. As wet as an ocean.

Moisted by a big room?

Or a plate?

Hmm, this is great. It's fascinating. It's a whole new vocabulary.

So if it's Jack on piano - then as you all say it must be a very wet piano, that is, with an extra harpsichordy effect. I can't wait to use these new (new to me) expressions somewhere.
I didn't realise they had the technology then to just make a bog standard piano sound like that.

The "technology" was there even before the piano, Bathsheba.

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DandelionPowderman

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bathsheba

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bathsheba
At 2,17 in comes the ...what? I've played this a million times but can't work out how this sound is made. Is it a keyboard with a chimes effect? If anyone has detailed knowledge of this I'd be grateful,
It's almost a harpsichord but with undertones of a threat,

Well, I'm learning a lot about wet and dry. Perhaps my question is too dumb?

The problem is that Nitzche isn't credited on other things than piano. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that he played harpsichord or something similar that created that sound, though.

Either a piano being played very hard and eq'd, or a tack piano, certainly not a harpsichord.

I hear a dry amp playing loud in the very large, fantastic sounding studio 1 of Olympic studio. You can hear the band playing live, recorded by engineers who are trained the old fashioned way in microphone setup.

Concerning the gear -pictures of the 1969 sessions show Vox AC30's, Vox Supreme, small WEM amps and a large HiWatt DR-103 head and cab. Fender amps do not seem to appear until 1970. I have no clue what amp Cooder used on this track, but if I had to guess it would be something relatively small, like a WEM.

The guitar most likely is Keith's ES-330. There's pictures of Cooder playing this guitar with a capo on the second fret, recording Sister Morphine. Cooder would mostly play his 1966 Stratocaster setup for slide in these years, but it is not a Strat sound for sure.

Mathijs

The cabinet (left of Mick in the pic posted in this thread), could that be the DR-103?

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Mathijs


Concerning the gear -pictures of the 1969 sessions show Vox AC30's, Vox Supreme, small WEM amps and a large HiWatt DR-103 head and cab. Fender amps do not seem to appear until 1970. I have no clue what amp Cooder used on this track, but if I had to guess it would be something relatively small, like a WEM.

A Fender Showman is shown in spring 1969.

[www.gearslutz.com]