The new European copyright law from 2011 protects recordings (the laws for compositions are different) made in 1963 or later for 70 years, but only if the recordings were published within 50 years after they were made. Recordings made before 1963 are out of copyright in the EU.

If they remain unreleased, recordings from 1965 will fall out of copyright in the EU at the end of 2015 (it does not matter if they circulate among collectors or not). For 1966 the cut off date would be the end of 2016 and so on. It would be legal for anybody to release those recordings in Europe.

In recent years Bob Dylan's people have addressed the problem by releasing so-called "50th Anniversary Collections" of previously unreleased material in limited quantities in Europe in order to save/extend the copyright on those recordings.

If the Rolling Stones do not do something similar, the European labels specializing in out-of-copyright recordings could release previously unreleased 1965 live and studio recordings next year and it would be perfectly legal in the EU.

Does anybody know if the Rolling Stones will address the problem, or will they simply let the recordings fall out of copyright in the EU?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-01 18:21 by MrEcho.

Jagger must consider "useless" the handful of 63-65 tracks that have leaked on boots over the years. So...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-01 17:05 by dcba.

Too late, it's already happening:

[www.iorr.org]

[www.iorr.org]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

I guess my thinking goes, who the hell cares?

If after 50 years they haven't saw fit to release this material to fans that would snap it up in a second, maybe we're all better off to see these other companies release all this stuff.

I'm all for official releases, but if this stuff was never ever going to be 'officially' released anyway at least now we'll get it.

Rather surprised not even an attempt at releasing a BBC package.

Yes, they let the 1963 and 1964 stuff fall out of copyright, but will they let the same happen for 1965? I mean, 1965 is the year where things get really interesting.

Then again, maybe they feel that with "Charlie Is My Darling" they have taken care of the unreleased 1965 material they consider worthy of release.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-01 17:15 by MrEcho.

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MrEcho
Yes, they let the 1963 and 1964 stuff fall out of copyright

Not totally, as they included the 1963 IBC demos and the 1964 Live at Camden Theatre tracks in the super deluxe GRRR.

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rootsman

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MrEcho
Yes, they let the 1963 and 1964 stuff fall out of copyright

Not totally, as they included the 1963 IBC demos and the 1964 Live at Camden Theatre tracks in the super deluxe GRRR.

Yes, maybe those are the only unreleased 1963 and 1964 recordings they feel are worthy of copyright protection. See "Charlie Is My Darling" for 1965.

Could be, because both "GRRR" (including IBC and Camden) and "Charlie" were released after the passing of the new law in the EU.

I am suprised that the team at ABKCO havent followed the Dylan approach.
As an organisation, they have always been very focussed on copyright issues.To their advantage, of course.

Look, the thing is that this "falling out of copyright"-thing is more or less peanuts for the Stones. The handful of circulating excellent-quality outtakes have no mass market appeal. And no matter how excellent a bootleg - or ("legal bootleg" in this case) - release is, any authorized release from the original master tapes on ABKCO will sound even better and will be snapped up by the target market - us Stones fans - anyway, for sound quality and collecting reasons.

Plus, small labels can only take advantage of "out of copyright"-stuff when it is in fact circulating on bootlegs or otherwise in collector's circles. Material that never leaked from the vaults in any form can't be exploited by anybody else than the Stones and ABKCO.

Would be interesting to get some kind of statement from ABKCO in this topic, of course.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-01 18:58 by alimente.

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alimente
Look, the thing is that this "falling out of copyright"-thing is more or less peanuts for the Stones. The handful of circulating excellent-quality outtakes have no mass market appeal. And no matter how excellent a bootleg - or ("legal bootleg" in this case) - release is, any authorized release from the original master tapes on ABKCO will sound even better and will be snapped up by the target market - us Stones fans - anyway, for sound quality and collecting reasons.

Plus, small labels can only take advantage of "out of copyright"-stuff when it is in fact circulating on bootlegs or otherwise in collector's circles. Material that never leaked from the vaults in any form can't be exploited by anybody else than the Stones and ABKCO.

Would be interesting to get some kind of statement from ABKCO in this topic, of course.

Those are actually damn good points.

Which brings me to my original conclusion, which is 'bring it on'.

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treaclefingers

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alimente
Look, the thing is that this "falling out of copyright"-thing is more or less peanuts for the Stones. The handful of circulating excellent-quality outtakes have no mass market appeal. And no matter how excellent a bootleg - or ("legal bootleg" in this case) - release is, any authorized release from the original master tapes on ABKCO will sound even better and will be snapped up by the target market - us Stones fans - anyway, for sound quality and collecting reasons.

Plus, small labels can only take advantage of "out of copyright"-stuff when it is in fact circulating on bootlegs or otherwise in collector's circles. Material that never leaked from the vaults in any form can't be exploited by anybody else than the Stones and ABKCO.

Would be interesting to get some kind of statement from ABKCO in this topic, of course.

Those are actually damn good points.

Which brings me to my original conclusion, which is 'bring it on'.

Absolutely - BRING IT ON, BRING IT ON!!! And please - do it while I'm still alive and well!

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alimente

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treaclefingers

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alimente
Look, the thing is that this "falling out of copyright"-thing is more or less peanuts for the Stones. The handful of circulating excellent-quality outtakes have no mass market appeal. And no matter how excellent a bootleg - or ("legal bootleg" in this case) - release is, any authorized release from the original master tapes on ABKCO will sound even better and will be snapped up by the target market - us Stones fans - anyway, for sound quality and collecting reasons.

Plus, small labels can only take advantage of "out of copyright"-stuff when it is in fact circulating on bootlegs or otherwise in collector's circles. Material that never leaked from the vaults in any form can't be exploited by anybody else than the Stones and ABKCO.

Would be interesting to get some kind of statement from ABKCO in this topic, of course.

Those are actually damn good points.

Which brings me to my original conclusion, which is 'bring it on'.

Absolutely - BRING IT ON, BRING IT ON!!! And please - do it while I'm still alive and well!

Yeah, I think this 50 year rule does everyone a favour, which is put it out there already, or risk it being put out legally by someone else.

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treaclefingers
Rather surprised not even an attempt at releasing a BBC package.

What's up with that? Everyone else has released a BBC Sessions album

Yes, a BBC vinyl set would be groovers. Why not release the whole Stones catalogue on vinyl in mono for the first time, such as "Beggars Banquet" and "Their Satanic Majesties Request"? At least Abko could do it for Record Store Day.

Charles Baudelaire
1821-1867

The Beatles got around this in 2013 by releasing via itunes about 50 outtakes from 63/64. They were heavily priced and only available for a short period. But it was sufficient to establish ownership. Maybe the Stones will follow...... like they did with TSMR ;-)

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MrThompsonWooft
The Beatles got around this in 2013 by releasing via itunes about 50 outtakes from 63/64. They were heavily priced and only available for a short period. But it was sufficient to establish ownership. Maybe the Stones will follow...... like they did with TSMR ;-)

They're still listed:

[itunes.apple.com]

[itunes.apple.com]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

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MrEcho

In recent years Bob Dylan's people have addressed the problem by releasing so-called "50th Anniversary Collections" of previously unreleased material in limited quantities in Europe in order to save/extend the copyright on those recordings

it fact the quantities were so extremely limited that only a handful of copies were sold in even fewer countries…
This year there are rumors of a massive releases of all 1966 recordings as a part of the famous bootleg series

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2000man
What's up with that? Everyone else has released a BBC Sessions album

It was seriously considered back in 1998, but aborted for some reasons (very probably copyright issues).
Again a nice project for the "From The Vault" serie.

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mitch

It was seriously considered back in 1998, but aborted for some reasons (very probably copyright issues).

You mean songwriting rights? What's the point in working on the release spending weeks on it too see the money generated by sales going to Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley's estate, etc etc.

[spelling edited...]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-03 18:36 by dcba.

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dcba
What's the point in working on the release spending wekks on it too see the money gengerated by sales going to Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley's estate, etc etc.

Well, this consideration didn't prevent the Beatles "Live at the BBC" to be released.
But I agree the stones whole BBC sessions will offer less than 5 songs written by the stones (counting Dust My Pyramids...).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-03 17:06 by mitch.

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dcba

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mitch

It was seriously considered back in 1998, but aborted for some reasons (very probably copyright issues).

You mean songwriting rights? What's the point in working on the release spending wekks on it too see the money gengerated by sales going to Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley's estate, etc etc.

Using that analogy, we would have never got to hear Dylan's last studio effort, Maccas covers albums etc etc.
Sometimes the old warhorses are better doing covers albums.

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mitch

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dcba
What's the point in working on the release spending wekks on it too see the money gengerated by sales going to Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley's estate, etc etc.

Well, this consideration didn't prevent the Beatles "Live at the BBC" to be released.
But I agree the stones whole BBC sessions will offer less than 5 songs written by the stones (counting Dust My Pyramids...).

I'm not sure Dust My Pyramids still exists. In fact sadly, i've yet to encounter 100% solid evidence that any of the bands music sessions (aside from what we already have on boot) survive.
I have (a little) experience when it comes to compiling a bbc sessions set for legal release - not The Stones btw. It is such a thankless pain in the ass that to be quite frank i can see why even people who really love music or an artist just give up. i'll elaborate at some point but i'm making tea for my kids.

this is a win win situation for us stones fans.

and gives the band, abkco and anyone who has access to these circulating bootlegs t a few decisionto make and soon, as time passes quickly more and more material risks falling out of copyright which is just more good news for us.

at least when the band stop for whatever reasons, the material that falls out of copyright will keep us going for a good few years yet.

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ash

I'm not sure Dust My Pyramids still exists.

For your information:

1998 Jan. 4: Early Rolling Stones Recordings Found
BBC archivists and retired producers have unearthed more than 20 'lost' recordings from the early career of the Rolling Stones, which may now be released as a potentially best-selling disc, according to Sunday Times. The songs were recorded for BBC radio between October 1963 and September 1965. Archivists at the BBC had uncovered 13 of the original 42 titles recorded by the group for radio. In addition, it said, more than 10 others had been preserved by former producers who should have ``wiped'' the tapes. Late additions: Two of the recovered songs are Dust My Pyramids (written by B.Jones and Richards?) and I Wanna Love You from the Rhytmn and Blues session.

[www.iorr.org]

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mitch

Quote
ash

I'm not sure Dust My Pyramids still exists.

For your information:

1998 Jan. 4: Early Rolling Stones Recordings Found
BBC archivists and retired producers have unearthed more than 20 'lost' recordings from the early career of the Rolling Stones, which may now be released as a potentially best-selling disc, according to Sunday Times. The songs were recorded for BBC radio between October 1963 and September 1965. Archivists at the BBC had uncovered 13 of the original 42 titles recorded by the group for radio. In addition, it said, more than 10 others had been preserved by former producers who should have ``wiped'' the tapes. Late additions: Two of the recovered songs are Dust My Pyramids (written by B.Jones and Richards?) and I Wanna Love You from the Rhytmn and Blues session.

[www.iorr.org]

Thanks Mitch but i have to question the source of that "late additions" bit.
While 2120 South Michigan exists from that show and you'd imagine that there must be a good chance that the rest of the session survived, neither Dust nor I Wanna Love You appear in the BBC Worldwide catalogue for overseas sales or in a database i have seen at the BBC though i must admit I am unsure how comprehensive that database was.

More to the point, what exactly is I Wanna Love You.
On the BBC Programme as Broadcast sheet which i have personally seen, the track is listed as being written by Pitney and published by Bron Music lasting 1.45.
Good luck with that ! There is no song with that title copyrighted to Gene Pitney on the BMI database listing. I've found no reference to a song with that title on any Pitney fan sites either.
Are the band thought to have played a song with that title at any time ?
It's not listed for Jagger/Richards or Nanker/Phelge and none of the songs with that title on the BMI database look likely candidates.
Now i could be wrong but i think it likely that the wrong title (and/or composer) were documented by the BBC - there are many incidences of that happening but it certainly looks to me as if a tape of an apparently non-existent song has been confirmed as existing in that late additions you quote ?
If, however the tape has been heard in recent years then i would assume that it would be referred to under whatever title it really is. Probably.

Other possible errors in the article you quote - of course the songs were recorded between september 1963 and august 1965. The dates in the article are actually the transmission dates, small detail perhaps but nevertheless inaccurate.
It also says they recorded 42 titles
by my count they recorded 43 titles for the bbc namely;
2120 South Michigan Avenue
Ain't That Lovin' You Baby
Around And Around
Beautiful Delilah
Bye Bye Johnny
Carol
Come On
Confessing The Blues
Cops And Robbers
Cracking Up
Cry To Me
Don't Lie To Me
Down In The Bottom
Down The Road Apiece
Dust My Pyramids
Everybody Needs Somebody To Love
Fannie Mae
Hi Heel Sneakers
I Can't Be Satisfied
(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
I Just Wanna Make Love To You
If You Need Me
I'm Moving On
I'm Talking About You
It's All Over Now
I Wanna Be Loved
I Wanna Love You !?!?!?!?
I Wanna Be Your Man
The Last Time
Little By Little
Memphis, Tennessee
Mercy, Mercy
Mona
Money
Not Fade Away
Oh Baby, We've Got A Good Thing Going
Pretty Thing
Roll Over Beethoven
Route 66
The Spider And The Fly
Walking The Dog
You Better Move On
You Can Make It If You Try

Finally, comparing what is written in The Independent in 1998 - their man David Lister listened to 20 or so songs and the paper says the BBC now claim to have up to 40 songs.
The Sunday Times reports the BBC had 13 titles and uncovered more than 10 others. They give a total of more than 20 songs that could be released.

BBC International list 18 titles available to foreign stations.
Via bootlegs we have 37 different titles (excluding Money/Talking About You/Pretty Thing/I Want To Be Loved/Dust My Pyramids/I Wanna Love You!?!?!?).

Going back to my original post - "I'm not sure Dust My Pyramids still exists."
I hope i'm wrong but i see no real evidence indicating either it or "I Wanna Love You!?!?!?" still exist.
BTW, Dust My Pyramids was 25 seconds long. I just spent hours writing this rubbish !

ash, it would be good to hear about the horrors of compiling a BBC set, if you can bear to spend more hours writing about it. It's a pity the Stones have never done it; there are some excellent live performances including songs you can't find anywhere else.

Green Lady, sure i'll be back later.
I completely agree re a Stones BBC release. I'm pretty much of the opinion that a BBC Sessions set should be mandatory for all those great 50s/60s bands. It should also be mandatory not to screw around with the source material - see The Beatles/Cream/Hendrix and The Hollies sets as just 4 examples (though in fairness, Apple did undo some of their mess ups when reissuing Live At The BBC Vol 1).

Quote
MrEcho
The new European copyright law from 2011 protects recordings (the laws for compositions are different) made in 1963 or later for 70 years, but only if the recordings were published within 50 years after they were made. Recordings made before 1963 are out of copyright in the EU.

If they remain unreleased, recordings from 1965 will fall out of copyright in the EU at the end of 2015 (it does not matter if they circulate among collectors or not). For 1966 the cut off date would be the end of 2016 and so on. It would be legal for anybody to release those recordings in Europe.

In recent years Bob Dylan's people have addressed the problem by releasing so-called "50th Anniversary Collections" of previously unreleased material in limited quantities in Europe in order to save/extend the copyright on those recordings.

If the Rolling Stones do not do something similar, the European labels specializing in out-of-copyright recordings could release previously unreleased 1965 live and studio recordings next year and it would be perfectly legal in the EU.

Does anybody know if the Rolling Stones will address the problem, or will they simply let the recordings fall out of copyright in the EU?

This has been dealt with a couple of years ago. The 70 years copyright protection can be extended by transfering copyrights. The 70 year period then starts all over. I understand this has been arranged a couple of years ago, with copyrights transfered to various business entities, and after death of the the directors (Mick, Keith, Charlie) to the family.

Mathijs

Quote
MrThompsonWooft
The Beatles got around this in 2013 by releasing via itunes about 50 outtakes from 63/64. They were heavily priced and only available for a short period. But it was sufficient to establish ownership. Maybe the Stones will follow...... like they did with TSMR ;-)

The Beatles were able to sell in massive quantities the Beatles Anthologies in CD & DVD because 1): Massive Marketing scheme (including 3-hour primetime broadcast tv special) and 2): They're the Beatles.

That made it easier to release the BBC sets they released on CD and also other 63/64 ottakes on Itunes...just saying.

Quote
Mathijs

This has been dealt with a couple of years ago. The 70 years copyright protection can be extended by transfering copyrights. The 70 year period then starts all over.

Mathijs

Wasn't the Disney mafia... sorry the Disney corp. the first "entity" to pull this trick? Iirc they were afraid some parts of the Disney empire went public in Europe?