Quote
keefriffhards

Quote
bmuseed
Mick is the exception to the rule! A musical talent with a business acumen. He had the best interests of the band in mind and they knew it. The band always had a veto power but for the most part, didn't need to use it.. Everything was implied, never stated...

And yet with his business acumen they did not have much to show for their efforts financially until the mega 81' 82' world tour.
I agree he is a great business man post 81' but not so sure about up to that point.

His acumen was yet to be developed to it's current edge in 72, when ABKCO successfully gained the publishing rights to Sweet Virginia, Loving Cup, All Down the Line, Shine a Light, and Stop Breaking Down, after correctly determining, and proving, those five tunes had been for all purpose and intent worked up in an executable form while still under contract to ABKCO. Did Jagger really think Klein was asleep at the wheel?

Quote
Testify
Mick and Keith are complementary, their solo albums are not masterpieces, but between Wandering Spirit and Talk is Cheap, WS is much better!

No not again
Can we just agree to differ, you like dog sh-t in the doorway and i like talk is cheap.

There is no accounting for bad taste

Quote
HMS

Quote
mickschix
HOGWASH, HMS!! You can't really believe Keith TAUGHT MICK how to write! As I recall, Andrew Oldham MADE them learn writing skills together. Now, granted, in the very beginning, Mick was not a guitar player so Keith may have taught Mick the chords BUT he did not teach Mick lyric writing or even melody writing, for that matter.
" As Tears Go By", one of their first creations is beautifully simple, written by both Mick & Keith. As someone said earlier, Mick is the poetic one but he " hears melodies in his head" just as Keith does....foolish statement, IMO.

Without Keith Mick would have never ever penned a line in his life. Take a look at his solo-albums and it is clear to see how poor his songwriting-skills are when Keith is not around. Mick´s solo-efforts sound best when he is trying to write in Keith-style. As for lyrics, he is not much of a poet, it´s quite the same all over again. Without Keith he is completely lost. Ever was, always will be. Keith is the major force in the Stones-universe. Like a plant needs the sun, Mick needs Keith, he needed him back then and he even more needs him now.

I think you are totally underestimating Mick's abilities to pen a song by himself. Tunes like Brown Sugar, Dead Flowers, 100 Years Ago and many others were written by Mick alone. Sure Keith help make the recordings better but to say Mick needed or needs Keith to write songs is uninformed and ignorant. Keith style and Mick style were once much closer than you may think. I am not denying that they had some special magic as a team at one time. I don't think it's possible to get it back either really, their musical sensibilities may have drifted too far apart. Perhaps they can close the gap with some true roots music, I hope so.

Micks solo albums aren't the best example of his stuff, imo, you've got to remember it was the 80's and both the music biz and the songs floating around the air were arguably at an all time low. Mick seems highly influenced by the musical atmosphere around him and it was pretty bleak at that time, imo.

I'm not sure why we haven't had any true classics for a long time from either one, together or individually but I suspect they have just pretty much burned through what they truly had to say that was unique and incredibly special. Neither has truly moved me with a new composition in decades.

As far as Jagger being a poet, his lyrics aren't all particularly poetic but they're great as song lyrics. He is a brilliant lyricist, or at least he was, some of the more recent stuff lacks the magic he once penned. I suspect his pampered lifestyle and guarded persona has just made him a bit out of touch with what most people see and feel.But I imagine if he actually put some effort into poetry he would be brilliant at that too,

Wandering Spirit is Mick Jagger trying to write Keith-style-songs. It worked pretty well and so WS is a rather good imitation of a "real" Stones-album. Although I like Wandering Spirit, Mick Jagger imitating The Rolling Stones made not much sense. Anyway its his best solo-effort. Many critics praised he album, and I think most Stones-fans liked it. Talk Is Cheap & Main Offender could have been close to masterpieces, if only these albums had a singer and a drummer...

Too Rude live from Hollyweird is perfection...better then the Stones

Quote
Naturalust

I think you are totally underestimating Mick's abilities to pen a song by himself. Tunes like Brown Sugar, Dead Flowers, 100 Years Ago and many others were written by Mick alone. Sure Keith help make the recordings better but to say Mick needed or needs Keith to write songs is uninformed and ignorant. Keith style and Mick style were once much closer than you may think. I am not denying that they had some special magic as a team at one time. I don't think it's possible to get it back either really, their musical sensibilities may have drifted too far apart. Perhaps they can close the gap with some true roots music, I hope so.

Micks solo albums aren't the best example of his stuff, imo, you've got to remember it was the 80's and both the music biz and the songs floating around the air were arguably at an all time low. Mick seems highly influenced by the musical atmosphere around him and it was pretty bleak at that time, imo.

I'm not sure why we haven't had any true classics for a long time from either one, together or individually but I suspect they have just pretty much burned through what they truly had to say that was unique and incredibly special. Neither has truly moved me with a new composition in decades.

As far as Jagger being a poet, his lyrics aren't all particularly poetic but they're great as song lyrics. He is a brilliant lyricist, or at least he was, some of the more recent stuff lacks the magic he once penned. I suspect his pampered lifestyle and guarded persona has just made him a bit out of touch with what most people see and feel.But I imagine if he actually put some effort into poetry he would be brilliant at that too,

I think you overestimate Mick here, both musically and poetically. I am sure he did not write those tunes you mentioned all on his own and offered them ready and complete to the band. As a matter of fact both J. and R. did not. They always got help from others. If Jagger was such a brilliant songwriter, then why did he not make it on his own? For Keith goes the same. Outside the framework of the band they couldn't make it. They both owe everything to 1) each other and 2) the band.

Do you really mean: "if Jagger put some effort into poetry he would be brilliant at that too"? So it is laziness and/or lack of interest that has robbed the world of another brilliant poet like Homer and Dante? I don't think so.

Quote
kleermaker

Quote
Naturalust

I think you are totally underestimating Mick's abilities to pen a song by himself. Tunes like Brown Sugar, Dead Flowers, 100 Years Ago and many others were written by Mick alone. Sure Keith help make the recordings better but to say Mick needed or needs Keith to write songs is uninformed and ignorant. Keith style and Mick style were once much closer than you may think. I am not denying that they had some special magic as a team at one time. I don't think it's possible to get it back either really, their musical sensibilities may have drifted too far apart. Perhaps they can close the gap with some true roots music, I hope so.

Micks solo albums aren't the best example of his stuff, imo, you've got to remember it was the 80's and both the music biz and the songs floating around the air were arguably at an all time low. Mick seems highly influenced by the musical atmosphere around him and it was pretty bleak at that time, imo.

I'm not sure why we haven't had any true classics for a long time from either one, together or individually but I suspect they have just pretty much burned through what they truly had to say that was unique and incredibly special. Neither has truly moved me with a new composition in decades.

As far as Jagger being a poet, his lyrics aren't all particularly poetic but they're great as song lyrics. He is a brilliant lyricist, or at least he was, some of the more recent stuff lacks the magic he once penned. I suspect his pampered lifestyle and guarded persona has just made him a bit out of touch with what most people see and feel.But I imagine if he actually put some effort into poetry he would be brilliant at that too,

I think you overestimate Mick here, both musically and poetically. I am sure he did not write those tunes you mentioned all on his own and offered them ready and complete to the band. As a matter of fact both J. and R. did not. They always got help from others. If Jagger was such a brilliant songwriter, then why did he not make it on his own? For Keith goes the same. Outside the framework of the band they couldn't make it. They both owe everything to 1) each other and 2) the band.

Do you really mean: "if Jagger put some effort into poetry he would be brilliant at that too"? So it is laziness and/or lack of interest that has robbed the world of another brilliant poet like Homer and Dante? I don't think so.

I think there wee many songs that Mick wrote completely without help actually. Both Taylor and Keith confirm this in interviews. No doubt the band helped shape them into the great stuff we hear on the records but I believe the truly hard and creative work was done by Jagger.

I think the reason Mick and Keith didn't have huge huge success on their own had to do with lots of factors. Timing, state of the music biz and that basically both artists had lost touch with the pulse of society, burned themselves out a bit and not hungry enough. I doubt if the Stones stayed together during those solo years we would have had any true classics either, hard to say. The period of true brilliance was waning, can't last forever.

Not really sure about the Jagger the poet stuff, since he hasn't tried I guess we'll never know. His approach to lyrics obviously isn't a purely poetic one, nor should it be really.

Todd Snider

On his album Agnostic Hymns and Stoner Fables, Todd Snider documents the ups and downs of the Jagger-Richards songwriting partnership with the tune “Brenda,” the title of which refers to Keith’s less-than-flattering nickname for his lead-singing counterpart.

American Songwriter recently asked Snider to write a column on one of his songwriting heroes. The East Nashville folkie and author responded with a free-verse ode to Jagger (who just recently became a great-grandfather), praising his stand-alone songwriting brilliance and utter fearlessness.

Read an excerpt from his new book I Never Met A Story I Didn’t Like here.

* * * *

when people ask me who I think the best songwriter is
I say I think it’s in the ear of the beholder

but when somebody asks
me who my favorite songwriter is, I say,
Mick
without hesitation.

did I mean to say Mick and Keith?
no.
don’t get me wrong.
Keith is number three for me behind Bob

to give you an example
of how deeply we have been affected by
the work of these men

let me point out that I have said
none of their last names
and you know who I am talking about

anything I ever saw or heard
that had anything to do with any of them
free or for sale
I saw it heard it
and love it for making my life better

after 30 years of doing regular business with them
I have zero point zero customer complaints
and that includes solo albums
and collaborations

but
Mick is my favorite
lyricist, songwriter, producer, singer, front man

the front man bit you seldom get any arguments about
he seduces women and angers men.
he scares everybody
and fears nothing.
if that ain’t rock and roll
@#$%& you.

vocal tone isn’t really a talent I guess
after a guy hits notes
you either dig the sound or you don’t

you can’t switch amps like a guitar player
vocally
for me Mick is the sweet spot
between Petty, Dylan, Lennon types
and Van Morrison, McCartney, Prince types
he can take his voice almost anywhere

the producer part his
sometimes grateful partner
gets a lot of credit for
but go listen to Soul Survivor before Mick got it
you can hear that song before Mick and after

or watch any studio video
Mick Jagger is the leader of the Rolling Stones
my god.
the thought of it would make a president sweat.

as a songwriter
and by that I mean melodic composition writer
or say
which notes to sing and where
I would use the word
greatness.

for an example of this greatness
buy a Mick Jagger solo album
or
more easily
I could refer you to all the songs
that he sings with his band
the Rolling Stones

you may have heard a few
of them already
hell
I bet you could think of one to hum to yourself
before I finish this sentence.

so now we come to the two things about him that set him apart
the furthest for me
and that’s
the lyrics

I think he is the most fearless public person of my lifetime
and when I hear the words he writes
I have to wonder if that fearlessness is the heart or core
of why the poetry seems to so easily
pour filterlessly from the heart without pomp or circumstance or mythology
into a song wide open to be what it wants (i.e. Sympathy For The Devil)

and I think had Mick Jagger not been so envied, attractive to women, androgynously handsome,
willing to dance. willing to frighten. his words would be poured over by stoners.
in short.
if he wasn’t the best stripper
he would get credit for being the best poet

but as it stands
the second best poet can’t dance, sing or strip for shit.
so he gets to be first best in our history books
but even he knows whats up

Bob Dylan told Keith Richards
“see Keith I could write a “Satisfaction” but you could never write a “Like A Rolling Stone”
and I agree
that Keith Richards probably isn’t going to sit down and pen anything
that moves people like “Like A Rolling Stone” does
I am not sure I agree that Bob Dylan has a riff in his catalogue
that could stand up next to “Satisfaction”
at least not to my taste
but one thing for sure
he didn’t say that to Mick Jagger
who wrote

“the sunshine bores the daylights out of me”
and
“you can’t always get what you want but if you try sometimes you get what you need”
and
“what can a poor boy do ‘cept for sing for a rock and roll band”
and
“people say I’m a loser, but I still get lucky on the side”
and
“laugh. I nearly died”
and
“I’m free to do what I want any old time”
and
“my best friend he shoots water rats and feeds them to his geese
and
“can’t I have my ups and downs? can’t you see I’m human?”
and
“she drove her pick up truck painted green and blue”
and
“god gave me everything I want. come on I’ll give it to you”
and
“I was born in a cross fire hurricane”
and
“there she was sitting in the corner. a little bleary. worse for the wear and tear”
and
“Our love is like our music / It’s here and then it’s gone”
and
“I see the girls go by, dressed in their summer clothes / I have to turn my head until my darkness goes”
and
“Like a newborn baby, it just happens every day”
and
“Please allow me to introduce myself, I’m a man of wealth and taste”
and
“Onstage the band has got problems / They’re a bag of nerves on first nights”
and
“now I’m just one of your cocks”

I COULD DO THIS ALL DAY
THAT’S OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
YOU COULD DO THIS ALL DAY

for fifty years this guy
has been ready to open his heart
and write it down
for his band
and

he doesn’t have to create a bunch
of mythology around himself
to get steeled up enough to do it.

he just does it.
his mystery is @#$%& you.
and if that ain’t rock and roll
@#$%& you

Jagger will let you watch him put on this make up
and when he’s done
you will think he is gone

Jagger deliberately dresses to anger boys
who are uptight about their own sexuality
he wants bullies
to want to kill him
and if he has to
he’ll lick a guy’s face to get that going

that didn’t happen cuz he was all @#$%& up that night on SNL
that happened cuz he’s Mick Jagger
all the time.
no bullshit.

he doesn’t have to pretend he didn’t help plan the party
to be the shaman at it
he doesn’t have to pretend he is reluctant to even be
at the party
in order to read his poetry at it.

he says he is not going to write a book

to me this says a lot about Mick

as a fan watching from way up at the top of the stadium
who is
unbelievably and overwhelming
grateful
to be entertained by the whole mess

it seems to me
that while Bob Dylan and Keith Richards
go way out of their way to make sure
everybody knows
how little they care
what everybody thinks
about them

Jagger just doesn’t

if I could pick only one person
to ever get another songwriting lesson from
it would be Mick Jagger
I think he is so good all around at everything
a person could bring to the job
that it sometimes gets lost in the shuffle
that as a songwriter
he is arguably one of the best to ever do it.

and in closing, I would like to add,
that if you went back and took all the music in the world
that came out
before 1985
and threw it away
as if it had never been heard
I would still say this

and furthermore
if nobody had ever
heard of
or seen
the Rolling Stones
and they were
only playing songs
off their Bigger Bang album
and it was
in a bar
that was kinda empty
tonight
as in this very evening

and I walked in and saw it and heard it

I would believe
I was witnessing the future of rock and roll

which ain’t much really
I mean
it can’t change the world
per say
so to speak
and what have you
say no more
right?
I mean
we all know
it’s only rock and roll
but
I have personally grown quite fond of it.

when Mick Jagger sticks his pin in his heart
and suicides right on stage

man oh man oh man
does it satisfy my bleeding heart

TS

"I'm the boss."

More pics here >>> [www.cnn.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-28 19:41 by Title5Take1.

Quote
Munichhilton
Too Rude live from Hollyweird is perfection...better then the Stones

love it.

Quote
Title5Take1
"I'm the boss."

More pics here >>> [www.cnn.com]

I can only imagine how easy it is to boss people around when you look like this

Time to post this again

Mick Jagger: Our Most Underrated Songwriter?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-28 20:26 by Bliss.

Quote
Bliss
Time to post this again

Mick Jagger: Our Most Underrated Songwriter?

in that case, definitely time to post this quote from the article you linked to above:

"But before I go any further, I think it’s important to say that when I say “Mick Jagger has written,” I mean the songs that Mick Jagger and Keith Richards have written. Most of them are written for Mr. Jagger’s voice , for his persona. But I have a feeling that the writing credit “Jagger/Richards” represents a real collaboration, whatever the division of labor may be."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-28 21:39 by Turner68.

Quote
harlem shuffle
Todd Snider

On his album Agnostic Hymns and Stoner Fables, Todd Snider documents the ups and downs of the Jagger-Richards songwriting partnership with the tune “Brenda,” the title of which refers to Keith’s less-than-flattering nickname for his lead-singing counterpart.

American Songwriter recently asked Snider to write a column on one of his songwriting heroes. The East Nashville folkie and author responded with a free-verse ode to Jagger (who just recently became a great-grandfather), praising his stand-alone songwriting brilliance and utter fearlessness.

Read an excerpt from his new book I Never Met A Story I Didn’t Like here.

* * * *

when people ask me who I think the best songwriter is
I say I think it’s in the ear of the beholder

but when somebody asks
me who my favorite songwriter is, I say,
Mick
without hesitation.

did I mean to say Mick and Keith?
no.
don’t get me wrong.
Keith is number three for me behind Bob

to give you an example
of how deeply we have been affected by
the work of these men

let me point out that I have said
none of their last names
and you know who I am talking about

anything I ever saw or heard
that had anything to do with any of them
free or for sale
I saw it heard it
and love it for making my life better

after 30 years of doing regular business with them
I have zero point zero customer complaints
and that includes solo albums
and collaborations

but
Mick is my favorite
lyricist, songwriter, producer, singer, front man

the front man bit you seldom get any arguments about
he seduces women and angers men.
he scares everybody
and fears nothing.
if that ain’t rock and roll
@#$%& you.

vocal tone isn’t really a talent I guess
after a guy hits notes
you either dig the sound or you don’t

you can’t switch amps like a guitar player
vocally
for me Mick is the sweet spot
between Petty, Dylan, Lennon types
and Van Morrison, McCartney, Prince types
he can take his voice almost anywhere

the producer part his
sometimes grateful partner
gets a lot of credit for
but go listen to Soul Survivor before Mick got it
you can hear that song before Mick and after

or watch any studio video
Mick Jagger is the leader of the Rolling Stones
my god.
the thought of it would make a president sweat.

as a songwriter
and by that I mean melodic composition writer
or say
which notes to sing and where
I would use the word
greatness.

for an example of this greatness
buy a Mick Jagger solo album
or
more easily
I could refer you to all the songs
that he sings with his band
the Rolling Stones

you may have heard a few
of them already
hell
I bet you could think of one to hum to yourself
before I finish this sentence.

so now we come to the two things about him that set him apart
the furthest for me
and that’s
the lyrics

I think he is the most fearless public person of my lifetime
and when I hear the words he writes
I have to wonder if that fearlessness is the heart or core
of why the poetry seems to so easily
pour filterlessly from the heart without pomp or circumstance or mythology
into a song wide open to be what it wants (i.e. Sympathy For The Devil)

and I think had Mick Jagger not been so envied, attractive to women, androgynously handsome,
willing to dance. willing to frighten. his words would be poured over by stoners.
in short.
if he wasn’t the best stripper
he would get credit for being the best poet

but as it stands
the second best poet can’t dance, sing or strip for shit.
so he gets to be first best in our history books
but even he knows whats up

Bob Dylan told Keith Richards
“see Keith I could write a “Satisfaction” but you could never write a “Like A Rolling Stone”
and I agree
that Keith Richards probably isn’t going to sit down and pen anything
that moves people like “Like A Rolling Stone” does
I am not sure I agree that Bob Dylan has a riff in his catalogue
that could stand up next to “Satisfaction”
at least not to my taste
but one thing for sure
he didn’t say that to Mick Jagger
who wrote

“the sunshine bores the daylights out of me”
and
“you can’t always get what you want but if you try sometimes you get what you need”
and
“what can a poor boy do ‘cept for sing for a rock and roll band”
and
“people say I’m a loser, but I still get lucky on the side”
and
“laugh. I nearly died”
and
“I’m free to do what I want any old time”
and
“my best friend he shoots water rats and feeds them to his geese
and
“can’t I have my ups and downs? can’t you see I’m human?”
and
“she drove her pick up truck painted green and blue”
and
“god gave me everything I want. come on I’ll give it to you”
and
“I was born in a cross fire hurricane”
and
“there she was sitting in the corner. a little bleary. worse for the wear and tear”
and
“Our love is like our music / It’s here and then it’s gone”
and
“I see the girls go by, dressed in their summer clothes / I have to turn my head until my darkness goes”
and
“Like a newborn baby, it just happens every day”
and
“Please allow me to introduce myself, I’m a man of wealth and taste”
and
“Onstage the band has got problems / They’re a bag of nerves on first nights”
and
“now I’m just one of your cocks”

I COULD DO THIS ALL DAY
THAT’S OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
YOU COULD DO THIS ALL DAY

for fifty years this guy
has been ready to open his heart
and write it down
for his band
and

he doesn’t have to create a bunch
of mythology around himself
to get steeled up enough to do it.

he just does it.
his mystery is @#$%& you.
and if that ain’t rock and roll
@#$%& you

Jagger will let you watch him put on this make up
and when he’s done
you will think he is gone

Jagger deliberately dresses to anger boys
who are uptight about their own sexuality
he wants bullies
to want to kill him
and if he has to
he’ll lick a guy’s face to get that going

that didn’t happen cuz he was all @#$%& up that night on SNL
that happened cuz he’s Mick Jagger
all the time.
no bullshit.

he doesn’t have to pretend he didn’t help plan the party
to be the shaman at it
he doesn’t have to pretend he is reluctant to even be
at the party
in order to read his poetry at it.

he says he is not going to write a book

to me this says a lot about Mick

as a fan watching from way up at the top of the stadium
who is
unbelievably and overwhelming
grateful
to be entertained by the whole mess

it seems to me
that while Bob Dylan and Keith Richards
go way out of their way to make sure
everybody knows
how little they care
what everybody thinks
about them

Jagger just doesn’t

if I could pick only one person
to ever get another songwriting lesson from
it would be Mick Jagger
I think he is so good all around at everything
a person could bring to the job
that it sometimes gets lost in the shuffle
that as a songwriter
he is arguably one of the best to ever do it.

and in closing, I would like to add,
that if you went back and took all the music in the world
that came out
before 1985
and threw it away
as if it had never been heard
I would still say this

and furthermore
if nobody had ever
heard of
or seen
the Rolling Stones
and they were
only playing songs
off their Bigger Bang album
and it was
in a bar
that was kinda empty
tonight
as in this very evening

and I walked in and saw it and heard it

I would believe
I was witnessing the future of rock and roll

which ain’t much really
I mean
it can’t change the world
per say
so to speak
and what have you
say no more
right?
I mean
we all know
it’s only rock and roll
but
I have personally grown quite fond of it.

when Mick Jagger sticks his pin in his heart
and suicides right on stage

man oh man oh man
does it satisfy my bleeding heart

TS

thanks for digging that up again...a good read, again!

I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.

Quote
72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.

yeah, not really...depends on the vice we're talking about.

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.

yeah, not really...depends on the vice we're talking about.

But,being oversexed doesn't rob you of your creativity,mental clarity and musical prowess.

Quote
72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.

Mick was in DAMAGE control...thats all

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.

yeah, not really...depends on the vice we're talking about.

Well done

Quote
Jesse1960
His acumen was yet to be developed to it's current edge in 72, when ABKCO successfully gained the publishing rights to Sweet Virginia, Loving Cup, All Down the Line, Shine a Light, and Stop Breaking Down, after correctly determining, and proving, those five tunes had been for all purpose and intent worked up in an executable form while still under contract to ABKCO. Did Jagger really think Klein was asleep at the wheel?

The last bit is incorrect. When the ABKCO contract ended, an accounting of all tracks in the vault was undertaken to determine ownership. Titles were assigned and recording copyright and publishing rights were set with the titles listed with a 1970 publishing date. This is standard legalities before releasing the artist to go elsewhere if they are not taking their copyrights with them. It is ABKCO's property. Four of the five songs on EXILE you list were included in the 1970 contract dissolution. Some of them were still works-in-progress, but it was agreed to assign these to ABKCO. The exception was "Sweet Virginia" where the similarity to a certain BEGGARS BANQUET outtake was acknowledged and the track was assigned to ABKCO as publisher likely on legal advice. As acrimonious as relations were with both ABKCO and Decca in the 1970s, they were still generous enough to allow STICKY FINGERS to be released while hanging onto the masters and publishing rights. It was in everyone's best interest to cooperate although almost immediately (Andrew's liner notes to MORE HOT ROCKS and later METAMORPHOSIS) contained jibes that their best work was behind them. The one exception which went uncontested was releasing the formless jam session with Ry Cooder as JAMMING WITH EDWARD. Likely the decision to not credit the "songs" to Jagger-Richards was a factor despite an embryonic version of "Midnight Rambler" (uncredited as such) appearing.

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kleermaker
Both Jagger's and Keith's solo albums are average at best. They do nothing to me and cannot even stand in the shadow of the worst Stones album. Besides, both needed the band to make the songs they 'wrote' really special.

As for the lyrics: Jagger has certainly written some fine lyrics indeed, no doubt about that. But calling him a poet is too far stretched.

The only argument I have on the first point is to note that once Mick and Keith embarked on solo careers, the band ceased to function as a band in improving their songs together and apart. I may prefer Charlie and Ronnie (and when he was still there, Bill) as players, but from DIRTY WORK on Stones recordings are really interchangeable with Mick and Keith solo sessions in terms of the quality of the songs. The collaboration between them if still existent had seen the dynamic change irrevocably now that they had established themselves as separate entities artistically. Neither can escape the shadow of the Stones, though. Every solo effort is viewed in the context of whether a song is Stonesish or not.

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Rocky Dijon

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kleermaker
Both Jagger's and Keith's solo albums are average at best. They do nothing to me and cannot even stand in the shadow of the worst Stones album. Besides, both needed the band to make the songs they 'wrote' really special.

As for the lyrics: Jagger has certainly written some fine lyrics indeed, no doubt about that. But calling him a poet is too far stretched.

The only argument I have on the first point is to note that once Mick and Keith embarked on solo careers, the band ceased to function as a band in improving their songs together and apart. I may prefer Charlie and Ronnie (and when he was still there, Bill) as players, but from DIRTY WORK on Stones recordings are really interchangeable with Mick and Keith solo sessions in terms of the quality of the songs. The collaboration between them if still existent had seen the dynamic change irrevocably now that they had established themselves as separate entities artistically. Neither can escape the shadow of the Stones, though. Every solo effort is viewed in the context of whether a song is Stonesish or not.

That all sounds good but there is the possibility that even working together as a team, exactly as they had in the past as one artistic entity, the songs still wouldn't have been nearly as good as the ones done earlier.

I think the premise that it was all about how they worked together is a bit overstated. It still comes down to them not having near as good ideas, imo.

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I did have to take Mick to a few discos - which are not my favorite places in the world - because Mick likes to go out and dance at night. So I did that. That was my sacrifice. I humored him. And that's when I knew we could work together."

That's hilarious. He had to take the wife out dancing.

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72hotrocks

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treaclefingers

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72hotrocks
I'd say Mick was in control when Keith decided to be a Junkie for a few years,and then traded that for 30 years of coked-out drunkenness.
Mick is in control because he HAS self-control.

yeah, not really...depends on the vice we're talking about.

But,being oversexed doesn't rob you of your creativity,mental clarity and musical prowess.

I'd like to introduce you to Goddess In The Doorway, Primitive Cool and She's The Boss.

HOLY SHIT! Where have I been? I had never seen that piece by Todd Snider on Mick nor the article by Ron Rosenbaum about Mick being under-rated as a songwriter. Both pieces are absolutely brilliant and GOD I wish I'd written them!! DAMN! Thank you for re-posting them Bliss &Harlem Shuffle. It's great to have well known and respected authors back up what I've been saying forever...but they said it 1000 times better than I could have. Well done Todd and Ron! Much appreciated.

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HMS
Wandering Spirit is Mick Jagger trying to write Keith-style-songs. It worked pretty well and so WS is a rather good imitation of a "real" Stones-album. Although I like Wandering Spirit, Mick Jagger imitating The Rolling Stones made not much sense. Anyway its his best solo-effort. Many critics praised he album, and I think most Stones-fans liked it. Talk Is Cheap & Main Offender could have been close to masterpieces, if only these albums had a singer and a drummer...

So um, which Keith song does "Sweet Thing" sound like?" They're Mick songs. They're Mick songs he would normally hold for the Stones, but they're all Mick songs. There's nothing on there that sounds remotely like a Keith solo composition.

Late 1967....when ALO got the boot....or escaped dependent on which book you read.

In terms of Management, Mick clearly doesnt need a Jane Rose type of figure to organise his professional life. From what I can guage these are a few of the key figures in the Stones/Jagger camp:

JOE RASCOFF: US based and sometimes referred to as the Stones Business Manager
JOYCE SMITH: As referred to in this thread already
JAN FAVIE: Accountant, based in the Netherlands
SHERRY DALE: Runs their London office, also Marathon Music and Munro Sounds
LISA PORTMAN: Micks PA
plus of course lawyers/AEG/publicits and PR.

No doubt all bound by various confidentiality clauses!

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jlowe
Late 1967....when ALO got the boot....or escaped dependent on which book you read.

In terms of Management, Mick clearly doesnt need a Jane Rose type of figure to organise his professional life. From what I can guage these are a few of the key figures in the Stones/Jagger camp:

JOE RASCOFF: US based and sometimes referred to as the Stones Business Manager
JOYCE SMITH: As referred to in this thread already
JAN FAVIE: Accountant, based in the Netherlands
SHERRY DALE: Runs their London office, also Marathon Music and Munro Sounds
LISA PORTMAN: Micks PA
plus of course lawyers/AEG/publicits and PR.

No doubt all bound by various confidentiality clauses!

Rupert Loewenstein

Take from Wiki:

Loewenstein was the Rolling Stones' business adviser and financial manager from 1968 until 2007. In 1968, then working in London as a merchant banker, he was introduced to Mick Jagger by a mutual friend, art dealer Christopher Gibbs. According to Keith Richards, Loewenstein had never heard of Jagger before then. Jagger was of the opinion that the Stones' then manager, Allen Klein, was not paying them everything they were due.

Loewenstein is credited with transforming the Stones into a "global brand and one of the world's richest bands", in particular by encouraging them to take into account potential tax advantages in any decisions about where to record, rehearse or perform. He managed their release from an existing contract, which paid them almost nothing, and persuaded them of the tax advantages of leaving England and moving to the south of France. He channelled their earnings through a series of companies in the Netherlands, and got them to rehearse in Canada, rather than the United States, to reduce their tax bill. Richards said, "[t]he tax rate [in the U.K.] in the early '70s on the highest earners was 83 percent, and that went up to 98 percent for investments... It was Rupert's advice that we become non-resident". Loewenstein also copyrighted the famous red tongue logo, and enlisted corporates sponsors such as General Electric for tours.

Richards described how, until they started to tour large venues in the 1980s, the Stones did not make serious money. The first important one was the 1981–82 tour which broke box office records. By then, Loewenstein had reorganised the band's finances so that they did not "get cheated out of eighty percent of the takings... On a fifty-dollar ticket, up till then, [the band got] three dollars. He set up sponsorship and clawed back merchandising deals. He cleaned out the scams and fiddles, or most of them. He made us viable." In a 2002 interview, Richards said of Loewenstein: "He is a great financial mind for the market. He plays that like I play guitar. He does things like a little oilwell. And currency—you know, Swiss francs in the morning, switch to marks in the afternoon, move to the yen, and by the end of the day, how many dollars?"

Loewenstein never got involved in the music. He said he preferred classical music and never played a Stones recording by choice; if he had to listen to rock and roll, he preferred The Beatles. Richards confirmed: "Rupert didn't like rock and roll; he thought 'composing' was something done with a pen and paper, like Mozart."

Good quote but you wonder about Keiths grasp of the real world in his comment about making serious money.
In 1971 he, with Mick got a huge payment for back publishing royalties and by then they had already aquired a property portfolio which most peopke could only dream about.
The rent for his villa in France was high by anyones standards and his lifestyle was hardly one who was "broke".

Books unfortunately about the Stones are written by "wannabe Stones inner circle", but in fact are no more than journalists who are slightly more ambitious and more intellectual. I read a book on Keef ( treacle hates that term ) by Spanish Tony ( not an intellectual but equally ambitions ) that completely took the soul out of Keith. And i don't believe it to be a true indication of the man. So please, books on the Stones, keep them for the library..