At What point do you think Mick Jagger took control over running the band.
From a standpoint of who is boss within the Stones, it would appear that Mick and Keith have equal percentages. Some decisions have been diplomatic in the past, with the band having a one man one vote process on choosing singles for release etc.
But what seems evident for a considerable time now is that Mick decides if they are going to make an album or not, or if they going to tour or not.
Also what songs they will play each night on tour.
Basically why did Keith give up his equal status in the Jagger Richards collaboration.
Was it anything for a quite life on Keith's part, was it a case of i cant make him sing what he don't like. But surely the same could be said about playing guitar on something you don't like. Was it a case of its Mick's way or the high way !!

I mean, he probably took over in like the early 70s, if not earlier when Brian left. He was still getting messed up in the 70s, but he always seemed like he was making sure the band wasn't completely dying. You know, he was always more in control than Keith was. I would guess his control was sealed when he returned to the Stones being his full time thing with Steel Wheels. I'd guess it only grew from there.

But I don't know that for certain so if anyone has the definite answer that would be illuminating.

1978

Priest

1964

Mick did not choose to "take over". No one else in the band even thought about
"being the "go-to guy." They each saw Mick as being the most capable to deal with Allen Klein, for example, and as someone they could trust. Keith, for example, didn't want to get all the phone calls dealing with the "day to day stuff." Jagger had, for a time, attended the London School of
Economics until the Rolling Stones became a band to be reckoned with. His parents had always felt strongly about him having a "good education."

Individual members looked at every contract that dealt with "income" but not
necessarily with studying bills, tour expenses etc. They had personal lawyers when they deemed it necessary but did not want to be bothered with "band stuff" on a weekly basis.

Jagger in effect became a manager but never really referred to himself in this way to the band. And he was not paid a fee or percentage as "real" managers receive.

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keefriffhards
At What point do you think Mick Jagger took control over running the band.
From a standpoint of who is boss within the Stones, it would appear that Mick and Keith have equal percentages. Some decisions have been diplomatic in the past, with the band having a one man one vote process on choosing singles for release etc.
But what seems evident for a considerable time now is that Mick decides if they are going to make an album or not, or if they going to tour or not.
Also what songs they will play each night on tour.
Basically why did Keith give up his equal status in the Jagger Richards collaboration.
Was it anything for a quite life on Keith's part, was it a case of i cant make him sing what he don't like. But surely the same could be said about playing guitar on something you don't like. Was it a case of its Mick's way or the high way !!

I agree with what Stonesrule says, but I think at a certain point Keith started to abdicate many musical decisions too - I think he just lost interest in the band as a creative force.

This can be seen when he makes comments like "I have no particular vision or plans for the band" - he enjoys playing with it, but it's not his life.

I think this because he was really disappointed at what transpired in the 80s, and that Steel Wheels proved to him that the Jagger approach of "Vegas Stones" would work and be successful, and that his collaboration with Mick was otherwise over. At this point Keith decided he was more "along for the ride" than "roll to nick's rock".

So I'd say this happened at some point on the Steel Wheels tour.

But, I honestly have no clue. Perhaps one day Charlie will tell us his impression.

In his first book Bill lamented that for the DANDELION video Mick called up Keith and...Marianne Faithfull. And not Bill or Charlie or Brian (who indeed are nowhere to be seen in the video). I'd say Bill's is a fair complaint.

Thank God he did.

Have The stones ever been under control ?????????????



ROCKMAN

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stonesrule
Mick did not choose to "take over". No one else in the band even thought about
"being the "go-to guy." They each saw Mick as being the most capable to deal with Allen Klein, for example, and as someone they could trust. Keith, for example, didn't want to get all the phone calls dealing with the "day to day stuff." Jagger had, for a time, attended the London School of
Economics until the Rolling Stones became a band to be reckoned with. His parents had always felt strongly about him having a "good education."

Individual members looked at every contract that dealt with "income" but not
necessarily with studying bills, tour expenses etc. They had personal lawyers when they deemed it necessary but did not want to be bothered with "band stuff" on a weekly basis.

Jagger in effect became a manager but never really referred to himself in this way to the band. And he was not paid a fee or percentage as "real" managers receive.

There is some interesting stuff in Stanley Booth's book that indicates Mick was the go to guy in 1969 but also some stuff that indicates he was rather cavalier about it all. Obviously he has grown into the role with promoters like Michael Cohl saying they have never seen an artist who was so interested and involved in the minute detail of the business dealings.

I wonder does Mick even have a personal manager? Keith has Jane Rose but I've never heard of anyone managing Mick at that level, at least since Jane Rose left him for Keith. You get the feeling with a couple good lawyers to keep everything legal that Jagger is a force to be reckoned with and one of the best managers in the business.

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stonesrule
Mick did not choose to "take over". No one else in the band even thought about
"being the "go-to guy." They each saw Mick as being the most capable to deal with Allen Klein, for example, and as someone they could trust. Keith, for example, didn't want to get all the phone calls dealing with the "day to day stuff." Jagger had, for a time, attended the London School of
Economics until the Rolling Stones became a band to be reckoned with. His parents had always felt strongly about him having a "good education."

Individual members looked at every contract that dealt with "income" but not
necessarily with studying bills, tour expenses etc. They had personal lawyers when they deemed it necessary but did not want to be bothered with "band stuff" on a weekly basis.

Jagger in effect became a manager but never really referred to himself in this way to the band. And he was not paid a fee or percentage as "real" managers receive.

I think this is a fair assessment of what in fact happened. And as time goes by, Mick gets really 'good' at doing it, so that even if someone else wanted to get involved, it's Mick's baby now.

Overall, from the business perspective, I think they could probably have done far worse.

People are forgetting who formed the band, and who in the early days before proper and professional management got on the phone to arrange for club gigs and who was drafting letters to the BBC to get them auditions, and who, based on these activities, saw to it that he got an extra 5 quid more a week than the other band members: Brian Jones. In the beginning, it was his band, and he saw himself as the leader.

Brian was throwing his full lot into the band when Mick was still only semi-committed and still attending business school, unable even to make some gigs in which case "Eric the Mod" (Eric Clapton) would stand in at the mic.

But the point at which Mick takes over and Brian's status as leader is diminished is documented in Phelge's book, Phelge's Stones.



It's early 1964 and the band is just coming back from a week-long holiday with their new single Not Fade Away currently in the top 10. They have a gig lined up, but Charlie is still on holiday with new wife Shirley. So they deputize Marty Wilde's drummer Mickey Waller to fill in. Backstage at the venue before the gig, Waller is curious about how much he'll be making for the gig. It seems he has it in his head that he'll be getting an equal cut of the take, so he approaches the go-to guy for an answer--Brian. Brian was none too assertive on this occasion and tells him to see Mick. Waller is expecting one fifth of the £350 the band will be getting, but Mick asserts that he'll be paid union rates instead (17 quid). Brian doesn't want to get involved, and backstage after the gig Waller complains to Brian, who promises him, "Don't worry; I'll sort it out. I'll see you all right."

As Phelge goes on to note: "...the balance of power within the band changed forever that night. Brian had opted out of any leadership role in dealing with Mickey Waller."
--Phelge's Stones, p. 209

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Rockman
Have The stones ever been under control ?????????????

I always thought they were Out of Control.

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Cristiano Radtke

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Rockman
Have The stones ever been under control ?????????????

I always thought they were Out of Control.

i knew that was coming

By 1969 Mick was well in control....in the 70's Keith completely was in his "own world(i.e. addict) and when he tried to regain some control Mick was off on a solo career in the 80's. The band has never recovered artistically.

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Naturalust

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stonesrule
Mick did not choose to "take over". No one else in the band even thought about
"being the "go-to guy." They each saw Mick as being the most capable to deal with Allen Klein, for example, and as someone they could trust. Keith, for example, didn't want to get all the phone calls dealing with the "day to day stuff." Jagger had, for a time, attended the London School of
Economics until the Rolling Stones became a band to be reckoned with. His parents had always felt strongly about him having a "good education."

Individual members looked at every contract that dealt with "income" but not
necessarily with studying bills, tour expenses etc. They had personal lawyers when they deemed it necessary but did not want to be bothered with "band stuff" on a weekly basis.

Jagger in effect became a manager but never really referred to himself in this way to the band. And he was not paid a fee or percentage as "real" managers receive.

There is some interesting stuff in Stanley Booth's book that indicates Mick was the go to guy in 1969 but also some stuff that indicates he was rather cavalier about it all. Obviously he has grown into the role with promoters like Michael Cohl saying they have never seen an artist who was so interested and involved in the minute detail of the business dealings.

I wonder does Mick even have a personal manager? Keith has Jane Rose but I've never heard of anyone managing Mick at that level, at least since Jane Rose left him for Keith. You get the feeling with a couple good lawyers to keep everything legal that Jagger is a force to be reckoned with and one of the best managers in the business.

there's a point where wyman says he had to keep track of the money because no one else would - i think they were all cavalier about it until the late 60s and really the key decision was hiring Rupert, who makes it clear mick was in a leadership role there.

i don't think keith was ever a leader on the business side - it was brian then mick. i think keith was the leader on the music side whenever he was conscious, until as i mention above the steel wheels/urban jungle tour timeframe.

I love that photo of all the Stones on the cover of TATTOO YO... oh, wait.

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Title5Take1
I love that photo of all the Stones on the cover of TATTOO YO... oh, wait.

Goats head soup before that

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Naturalust

I wonder does Mick even have a personal manager? Keith has Jane Rose but I've never heard of anyone managing Mick at that level, at least since Jane Rose left him for Keith. You get the feeling with a couple good lawyers to keep everything legal that Jagger is a force to be reckoned with and one of the best managers in the business.

Depends on your exact definition, but he will have someone; it's possible that someone at Marathon Music takes on the role.

Although I've been a student of Law in the past, I've no idea exactly what a Lawyer employed by someone like Jagger would have responsibility for. It's possible they could fulfil part of the role, but that would still leave a lot of administrative and other work for Jagger: who books the cars and planes and arranges where and what time to meet for his various projects and engagements? Not a Lawyer...

.....

Olly.

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Olly

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Naturalust

I wonder does Mick even have a personal manager? Keith has Jane Rose but I've never heard of anyone managing Mick at that level, at least since Jane Rose left him for Keith. You get the feeling with a couple good lawyers to keep everything legal that Jagger is a force to be reckoned with and one of the best managers in the business.

Depends on your exact definition, but he will have someone; it's possible that someone at Marathon Music takes on the role.

Although I've been a student of Law in the past, I've no idea exactly what a Lawyer employed by someone like Jagger would have responsibility for. It's possible they could fulfil part of the role, but that would still leave a lot of administrative and other work for Jagger: who books the cars and planes and arranges where and what time to meet for his various projects and engagements? Not a Lawyer...

I would consider what you describe as a personal assistant, which I'm sure Mick has at times. Managers are the ones who usually line up new work, projects and business deals and take a significant percentage of all earnings to do so. The lines probably get a bit blurred with someone like Jane Rose who probably employs personal assistants of her own and provides services above and beyond that of a typical Manager.

Obviously Mick uses lawyers to do unpleasant work like call Taylor and tell him he's not guesting on the Zip Code Tour.

...and that would be the Stones' Director of Business Affairs whose name escapes me now but she's credited son SSS (and Live at the Marquee) as a co-executive producer. She's also the one who set the prices for the O2 shows and got a choir involved according to an article in the Times (Guardian?)...oh and designed TShirts for these shows too apparently!

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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Naturalust

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Olly

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Naturalust

I wonder does Mick even have a personal manager? Keith has Jane Rose but I've never heard of anyone managing Mick at that level, at least since Jane Rose left him for Keith. You get the feeling with a couple good lawyers to keep everything legal that Jagger is a force to be reckoned with and one of the best managers in the business.

Depends on your exact definition, but he will have someone; it's possible that someone at Marathon Music takes on the role.

Although I've been a student of Law in the past, I've no idea exactly what a Lawyer employed by someone like Jagger would have responsibility for. It's possible they could fulfil part of the role, but that would still leave a lot of administrative and other work for Jagger: who books the cars and planes and arranges where and what time to meet for his various projects and engagements? Not a Lawyer...

I would consider what you describe as a personal assistant, which I'm sure Mick has at times. Managers are the ones who usually line up new work, projects and business deals and take a significant percentage of all earnings to do so. The lines probably get a bit blurred with someone like Jane Rose who probably employs personal assistants of her own and provides services above and beyond that of a typical Manager.

Obviously Mick uses lawyers to do unpleasant work like call Taylor and tell him he's not guesting on the Zip Code Tour.

Yes, you're right, I gave false examples there.

Rather than booking planes, who arranges the terms of the lease?

Rather than merely checking when or where to meet, who haggles or dictates, on Jagger's behalf, when or where to meet?


These are tasks that are traditionally the remit of neither a PA nor a Lawyer.


And regarding Taylor, although it provides a humorous image, there would have been no need to engage the services of a Lawyer.

Taylor's lack of involvement on the Zip Code Tour is a moral issue (for some) but not a legal one.

.....

Olly.

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keefriffhards
Mick decides if they are going to make an album or not, or if they going to tour or not.
Also what songs they will play each night on tour.
Basically why did Keith give up his equal status in the Jagger Richards collaboration.

I wonder if Keith ever had any aspirations to decide in all these things.
I don't think it was a matter of giving up his equal status by letting Mick fuss over
these details. I think it was a matter of delegating tasks.

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

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gotdablouse
...and that would be the Stones' Director of Business Affairs whose name escapes me now but she's credited son SSS (and Live at the Marquee) as a co-executive producer. She's also the one who set the prices for the O2 shows and got a choir involved according to an article in the Times (Guardian?)...oh and designed TShirts for these shows too apparently!

Yes, but this is a different role from Jagger's Manager.

.....

Olly.

it still has always been about the band, and Jagger knows it.

he might have been more interested than anyone else in the band in business matters, but don't forget-

Bill Wyman was quite likely the more astute businessman in the Rolling Stones, yet his input was marginalized.

And no decisions regarding what they undertook as a band were ever unilateral,

especially decisions about recording or touring. if Charlie wasn't into it, they wouldn't do it, generally..

so he kind of de facto runs the band..

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duke richardson


especially decisions about recording or touring. if Charlie wasn't into it, they wouldn't do it, generally..

so he kind of de facto runs the band..

And Charlie was the first to be portrayed on an album cover without the other band mates,
way before Goat's Head Soup.

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

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duke richardson
it still has always been about the band, and Jagger knows it.

he might have been more interested than anyone else in the band in business matters, but don't forget-

Bill Wyman was quite likely the more astute businessman in the Rolling Stones, yet his input was marginalized.

And no decisions regarding what they undertook as a band were ever unilateral,

especially decisions about recording or touring. if Charlie wasn't into it, they wouldn't do it, generally..

so he kind of de facto runs the band..

In that respect though, if any of them aren't into recording or touring it's not going to happen. I get the feeling decisions are made as a group in those infamous band meetings, with the 4 key members each getting a vote. What would be interesting to know is how they resolve tie votes. Perhaps Jagger as CEO has the power to do so, who knows.

Jagger has the swing vote.

...get it - 'swing'...

ok I've had coffee..

He looks in charge during the 1969 tour (at least as seen in the film Gimme Shelter which documented the 1969 tour).

Who knows, really? He may have assumed leadership (meaning the one that provides a vision and direction for the band as a whole) as early as 1967 after Andrew Oldham left.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-20 16:49 by nightskyman.

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Naturalust

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duke richardson
it still has always been about the band, and Jagger knows it.

he might have been more interested than anyone else in the band in business matters, but don't forget-

Bill Wyman was quite likely the more astute businessman in the Rolling Stones, yet his input was marginalized.

And no decisions regarding what they undertook as a band were ever unilateral,

especially decisions about recording or touring. if Charlie wasn't into it, they wouldn't do it, generally..

so he kind of de facto runs the band..

In that respect though, if any of them aren't into recording or touring it's not going to happen. I get the feeling decisions are made as a group in those infamous band meetings, with the 4 key members each getting a vote. What would be interesting to know is how they resolve tie votes. Perhaps Jagger as CEO has the power to do so, who knows.

Do you really believe it is some kind of democratic voting process? How naieve!

More interesting is the fact that Jagger is very aware that he needs the Stones as a band/vehicle to be important himself. Jagger solo never attracted the masses: he just failed on his own.

Even more interesting is the question who controls the band musically/artistically. That is Jagger right now, but difficult to say since when. I would guess mid seventies.