Quote
stonehearted
<<Filler was when the record company wanted to cash in on a band that had two hit singles (with two b-sides) and threw them in a studio for three days so they could release an album.>>

Yes, but by that definition this also includes....


Rolling Stones No. 1, recorded after having had two hit singles (with two B-sides).

Yep. That's the album with Now I Got A Witness on it.
That's brazen filler.

Probably the first album where they consciously tried not to include filler was Aftermath.

ROCKMAN

Quote
andrewt

Quote
stonehearted
<<Filler was when the record company wanted to cash in on a band that had two hit singles (with two b-sides) and threw them in a studio for three days so they could release an album.>>

Yes, but by that definition this also includes....


Rolling Stones No. 1, recorded after having had two hit singles (with two B-sides).

Yep. That's the album with Now I Got A Witness on it.
That's brazen filler.

Probably the first album where they consciously tried not to include filler was Aftermath.

Any idea why they stopped this policy in the 70s

Quote
Turner68
indian girl on emotional rescue,

I won't debate the merits of the Indian Girl, but "filler" means that it's plainly obvious that the band and/or songwriter just wasn't into it and therefore didn't put any serious work into it.

With Indian Girl, that's not obvious to me. Same with Winter and Break the Spell. Which is more filler, Streets of Love or Sweet Neocon? While SOL ain't that great, Mick seems to have put some serious effort into writing it. The band's fingerprints were minimal, but I won't call it filler. Sweet Neocon has a good title, but there's no evidence that anyone in the band cared one damn bit about this song. Filler. "Too Tough" is filler. I don't even know why I like that song. But it ain't because of the lyrics/performance/arrangement/energy. Mailed it straight in. Maybe that's why I like it!

Quote
whitem8
Nothing on Exile is filler. They set out to make a double album. They recorded more than enough for three albums. Yet, they selected every song to purposely be on Exile. So no filler.

I doubt you'd say that if they had used all that was recorded in France and nothing from the SF sessions...

Quote
carlorossi

Quote
Turner68
indian girl on emotional rescue,

I won't debate the merits of the Indian Girl, but "filler" means that it's plainly obvious that the band and/or songwriter just wasn't into it and therefore didn't put any serious work into it.

With Indian Girl, that's not obvious to me. Same with Winter and Break the Spell. Which is more filler, Streets of Love or Sweet Neocon? While SOL ain't that great, Mick seems to have put some serious effort into writing it. The band's fingerprints were minimal, but I won't call it filler. Sweet Neocon has a good title, but there's no evidence that anyone in the band cared one damn bit about this song. Filler. "Too Tough" is filler. I don't even know why I like that song. But it ain't because of the lyrics/performance/arrangement/energy. Mailed it straight in. Maybe that's why I like it!

it's all subjective i think, which is why it's interesting to talk about!

emotional rescue fits to me the pattern described above of a couple hits - emotional rescue and she's so cold - with a bunch of filler thrown in to make an album that can be released and sold. i think they phoned in most of the album honestly. if they'd wanted to make the best album possible perhaps they would have put some more songs from the SG/ER sessions on... clearly, it think, they wanted to save the other hits (SMU for example) for a future album.

i definitely agree with what you and others say about what might be filler actually turning out to be a great song, even if the band had no regard for it. artists are often not the best judges of their work - and time usually is. perhaps too tough is an example, i would also argue that much of EOMS the band might have considered filler (well, MJ at least) but turned out to be crucial to the album's status.

this is a good topic because there is no clear cut "right" answer and lots of opinions to discuss :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-06 07:30 by Turner68.

Quote
Turner68
indian girl on emotional rescue,
winter on GHS
cherry oh baby on B&B

these are examples of filler.

factory girl = not filler

Come on, Winter is not filler and neither is Indian Girl. And not because I happen to like them. I don't particularly like Cherry Oh Baby, but even that is not filler. They tried something "new": playing a reggae cover, and they do a bad job, but that doesn't mean it's filler. In the same as Gomper is complete BS but not really filler (Sing This All Together is, though).
Top filler for me would be: Hang Fire, Lies, Where The Boys Go, Fight. Stuff where they just banged out some chords, in obvious chord schemes and Mick Jagger shouts something on top of it without any meaning.

Quote
GasLightStreet

Quote
whitem8
Nothing on Exile is filler. They set out to make a double album. They recorded more than enough for three albums. Yet, they selected every song to purposely be on Exile. So no filler.

I doubt you'd say that if they had used all that was recorded in France and nothing from the SF sessions...

But they didn't so it is a moot point. Mick particularly spent a lot of time deciding the tracks for the album and track order. They did more production in LA with additional backing musicians, etc. Exile has no filler. Its a very concerted artistic statement.

A Bigger Bang - just about a whole album of filler. ><

Quote
Turner68

Quote
andrewt

Quote
stonehearted
<<Filler was when the record company wanted to cash in on a band that had two hit singles (with two b-sides) and threw them in a studio for three days so they could release an album.>>

Yes, but by that definition this also includes....


Rolling Stones No. 1, recorded after having had two hit singles (with two B-sides).

Yep. That's the album with Now I Got A Witness on it.
That's brazen filler.

Probably the first album where they consciously tried not to include filler was Aftermath.

Any idea why they stopped this policy in the 70s

Cocaine?

The non-glib answer: too men yes-men, probably.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-06 15:56 by andrewt.

[/quote]

Sweet Neocon has a good title, but there's no evidence that anyone in the band cared one damn bit about this song.[/quote]

BASED ON WHAT, do the band STOP playing on this? Take a break? Have a cup of tea, midstream? Mick forget his words? Don't get this comment. Surely if the band cares not a whit about this, it would not be on the record.

Sure, YOU can say YOU don't like it, but to speak for the band? Hmmmm...

Quote
carlorossi

Quote
Turner68
indian girl on emotional rescue,

I won't debate the merits of the Indian Girl, but "filler" means that it's plainly obvious that the band and/or songwriter just wasn't into it and therefore didn't put any serious work into it.

With Indian Girl, that's not obvious to me. Same with Winter and Break the Spell. Which is more filler, Streets of Love or Sweet Neocon? While SOL ain't that great, Mick seems to have put some serious effort into writing it. The band's fingerprints were minimal, but I won't call it filler. Sweet Neocon has a good title, but there's no evidence that anyone in the band cared one damn bit about this song. Filler. "Too Tough" is filler. I don't even know why I like that song. But it ain't because of the lyrics/performance/arrangement/energy. Mailed it straight in. Maybe that's why I like it!

I love absolutely everything about Too Tough.

Quote
GasLightStreet
On a double album that is scraping the barrel of things that are optional for time on an album to "fill it out", EXILE has that (and their 3 recent, on vinyl anyway, double albums, VL, BTB and ABB, clearly have filler). After all, they dipped into previous sessions to fill out the album since it's not all from France because, as Keith stated, they wanted to 'throw it all in there' - even though it clearly wasn't "everything". And obviously they didn't finish all that they could've from the France sessions. They used some leftovers from the STICKY FINGERS sessions for whatever reason instead.

Why people can't objectively hear filler on EXILE is beyond me.

I wanted to address a couple of points in your post, which I have heard from other fans, because I think they come from Mick's misguided views of Exile expressed in interviews over the years.

First, that quote about wanting to "throw it all in there" is Mick, I believe (not 100% sure). And we all know that Mick "never understood why fans loved" Exile, because it "didn't have hits" and the "production was bad." Mick was just being influenced by the reviews at the time, which were not all positive. For all the incredible natural talent that he has, I have never seen a major rock star (with the possible exception of Paul McCartney), who so easily allows his opinions about his own work to be shaped by critics. By 2010, the critics have come around and Exile is often cited as the greatest rock album ever made. So, during interviews about the reissue, Mick explains that he was just being a jerk, and joking before: "People would say 'it's my favorite album' and I would reply 'it's not mine' just to be unpleasant. I really don't have a favorite". (or something like that, I don't have the interview. Maybe it's on the Stones in Exile DVD).

The idea of leftovers from the Sticky Fingers sessions being used as "filler" on Exile also comes from Mick's quotes. Keith's view is more accurate. All of the sessions - England, Nellcote, Los Angeles - are part of one continuous effort that resulted in two albums (SF and Exile). If you look at the tracks that were started during the Sticky Fingers sessions, I think you have Tumbling Dice, Sweet Virginia, All Down The Line, Stop Breaking Down, and maybe Sweet Black Angel (?). Maybe there are more. Hardly scraping the barrell.

Quote
bitusa2012

Sweet Neocon has a good title, but there's no evidence that anyone in the band cared one damn bit about this song.[/quote]

BASED ON WHAT, do the band STOP playing on this? Take a break? Have a cup of tea, midstream? Mick forget his words? Don't get this comment. Surely if the band cares not a whit about this, it would not be on the record.

Sure, YOU can say YOU don't like it, but to speak for the band? Hmmmm...[/quote]

The band will play whatever Mick or Keith tell them to. There's nothing horrible about the song, musically or otherwise. It's just lazy all the way around. Sounds like Mick cooked up the lyrics during the tea break. Same with the guitars. Keith: "Can I just play Love is Strong and speed it up a hair?" Charlie: "Why not, that's what I'm doing!" Mick: "Alright then".

But Streets of Love, which I really do detest, has all the marks of having been written and rewritten by Jagger until he got it to his liking, for better or worse. The performance of the band in the studio is uninspired, so it might call it musical filler, but the song itself is not, imo.

Quote
carlorossi

Quote
bitusa2012

Sweet Neocon has a good title, but there's no evidence that anyone in the band cared one damn bit about this song.

BASED ON WHAT, do the band STOP playing on this? Take a break? Have a cup of tea, midstream? Mick forget his words? Don't get this comment. Surely if the band cares not a whit about this, it would not be on the record.

Sure, YOU can say YOU don't like it, but to speak for the band? Hmmmm...[/quote]

The band will play whatever Mick or Keith tell them to. There's nothing horrible about the song, musically or otherwise. It's just lazy all the way around. Sounds like Mick cooked up the lyrics during the tea break. Same with the guitars. Keith: "Can I just play Love is Strong and speed it up a hair?" Charlie: "Why not, that's what I'm doing!" Mick: "Alright then".

But Streets of Love, which I really do detest, has all the marks of having been written and rewritten by Jagger until he got it to his liking, for better or worse. The performance of the band in the studio is uninspired, so it might call it musical filler, but the song itself is not, imo.[/quote]

high praise indeed

I share the motive of the opening post, something which most of the answerers do not seem to do, not even by declaring their disagreement. Maybe stonehearted with some right holds up "Now I've Got a Witness" as a song by motive meant for the Rolling Stones to be a filler. However, measured by the result, it does not end up that way.

Then I want to hold that no song by the Stones has been a planned and realized filler. When their latest albums allegedly have been left over to the buyers more or less totally, that does not reflect a filler approach, but rather an awareness with the band that in an increasing degree the latterday Stones product is received differently, relatively over what has been presented by each release.

My bid as to what actual fillers might be, by an example: In their time, the Four Tops to my knowledge, released six great hits. Four of them were in the mould of "Reach Out, I'll Be There". In addition, their hits comprised "If I Were a Carpenter" and "Walk Away Renee". I bought those songs on a vinyl compilation many years ago. The rest of the album consisted of approximatedly four songs more (writing this on my phone far from home). I may be wrong about the other songs. However, the Four Tops' version of the Monkees' hit "Last Train to Clarksville" appears to me as an ideal case of the definition of 'filler'.

Posters' naming of songs they do not approve of, as "fillers", is an expression of intellectual laziness. Besides, a result of their wishes to scorn others' taste. Another word is needed, otherwise the tag can't be taken seriously any more.

Quote
Witness
However, the Four Tops' version of the Monkees' hit "Last Train to Clarksville" appears to me as an ideal case of the definition of 'filler'.

Can we agree that the Stones version of the Temptations hit "My Girl" is filler?

An earlier post gets it right. Just because you don't like a song doesn't make it filler. And covers are not "filler" just by virtue of their being covers - otherwise the entire first couple of Stones albums would be filler and that makes no sense.

Filler is precisely what it says: something dashed off to fill an album, usually with little thought to quality, and with minimal effort. Another earlier post hits it on the head - those early Beach Boys albums had stuff like 'Carl's first guitar solo' or 'I'm bugged at my Old Man' or 'Brian and Mike argue' (or something like that), just utter nonsense to fill out an album. Motown albums had tons of casually tossed off covers that are probably legitimately called 'filler', but those artists were so good, people loved it anyway.

Quote
treaclefingers
high praise indeed

I picture Mick in his lonely writer's garret, smiling away at having chosen the word "Rubicon". I guess it was originally for a solo record, so his head was in another place. A bad one. I think it could have been a very good song with some lyric tweaking, production changes, and major overhaul of vocal delivery and guitar presence.

Quote
andrewt

Quote
Witness
However, the Four Tops' version of the Monkees' hit "Last Train to Clarksville" appears to me as an ideal case of the definition of 'filler'.

Can we agree that the Stones version of the Temptations hit "My Girl" is filler?

From my point of view, the answer is no. To make a try on a song that the Stones probably estimated highly, does not make it a filler. And to include it on albums, may be seen as an act of sincerety, not as contributing a filler.

Dirty Work from the beginning to the end

Highwire,Sex Drive,...the four on Forty Licks,D&G,OMS...another kind of fillers...

Quote
andrewt

Quote
Witness
However, the Four Tops' version of the Monkees' hit "Last Train to Clarksville" appears to me as an ideal case of the definition of 'filler'.

Can we agree that the Stones version of the Temptations hit "My Girl" is filler?

No, it's a cover, not a filler. And a good one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-07 10:51 by bitusa2012.

Quote
drbryant

Quote
GasLightStreet
On a double album that is scraping the barrel of things that are optional for time on an album to "fill it out", EXILE has that (and their 3 recent, on vinyl anyway, double albums, VL, BTB and ABB, clearly have filler). After all, they dipped into previous sessions to fill out the album since it's not all from France because, as Keith stated, they wanted to 'throw it all in there' - even though it clearly wasn't "everything". And obviously they didn't finish all that they could've from the France sessions. They used some leftovers from the STICKY FINGERS sessions for whatever reason instead.

Why people can't objectively hear filler on EXILE is beyond me.

I wanted to address a couple of points in your post, which I have heard from other fans, because I think they come from Mick's misguided views of Exile expressed in interviews over the years.

First, that quote about wanting to "throw it all in there" is Mick, I believe (not 100% sure). And we all know that Mick "never understood why fans loved" Exile, because it "didn't have hits" and the "production was bad." Mick was just being influenced by the reviews at the time, which were not all positive. For all the incredible natural talent that he has, I have never seen a major rock star (with the possible exception of Paul McCartney), who so easily allows his opinions about his own work to be shaped by critics. By 2010, the critics have come around and Exile is often cited as the greatest rock album ever made. So, during interviews about the reissue, Mick explains that he was just being a jerk, and joking before: "People would say 'it's my favorite album' and I would reply 'it's not mine' just to be unpleasant. I really don't have a favorite". (or something like that, I don't have the interview. Maybe it's on the Stones in Exile DVD).

The idea of leftovers from the Sticky Fingers sessions being used as "filler" on Exile also comes from Mick's quotes. Keith's view is more accurate. All of the sessions - England, Nellcote, Los Angeles - are part of one continuous effort that resulted in two albums (SF and Exile). If you look at the tracks that were started during the Sticky Fingers sessions, I think you have Tumbling Dice, Sweet Virginia, All Down The Line, Stop Breaking Down, and maybe Sweet Black Angel (?). Maybe there are more. Hardly scraping the barrell.

It was Keith that said 'throw it all in there' from what I read.

Yeah, Tumbling Dice, although not in the form it is on EOMS, Sweet Virginia, All Down The Line, Stop Breaking Down, Sweet Black Angel and Shine A Light were recorded for SF.

Scraping the barrel is more about the France sessions turning out to be not the total picture as the album is heralded - they needed to dip into previous sessions. Not sure where the 'filler' from the SF sessions comes from. Maybe because I think Sweet Black Angel is filler?

I still find it mind blowing that I'm Not Signifying didn't make EOMS.

Quote
Turner68

Quote
carlorossi

Quote
Turner68
indian girl on emotional rescue,

I won't debate the merits of the Indian Girl, but "filler" means that it's plainly obvious that the band and/or songwriter just wasn't into it and therefore didn't put any serious work into it.

With Indian Girl, that's not obvious to me. Same with Winter and Break the Spell. Which is more filler, Streets of Love or Sweet Neocon? While SOL ain't that great, Mick seems to have put some serious effort into writing it. The band's fingerprints were minimal, but I won't call it filler. Sweet Neocon has a good title, but there's no evidence that anyone in the band cared one damn bit about this song. Filler. "Too Tough" is filler. I don't even know why I like that song. But it ain't because of the lyrics/performance/arrangement/energy. Mailed it straight in. Maybe that's why I like it!

it's all subjective i think, which is why it's interesting to talk about!

emotional rescue fits to me the pattern described above of a couple hits - emotional rescue and she's so cold - with a bunch of filler thrown in to make an album that can be released and sold. i think they phoned in most of the album honestly. if they'd wanted to make the best album possible perhaps they would have put some more songs from the SG/ER sessions on... clearly, it think, they wanted to save the other hits (SMU for example) for a future album.

i definitely agree with what you and others say about what might be filler actually turning out to be a great song, even if the band had no regard for it. artists are often not the best judges of their work - and time usually is. perhaps too tough is an example, i would also argue that much of EOMS the band might have considered filler (well, MJ at least) but turned out to be crucial to the album's status.

this is a good topic because there is no clear cut "right" answer and lots of opinions to discuss :-)

Following the Some Girls album, there was no way Emotional Rescue be anything other than what you just described. So I'd say many 'filler' tracks on that particular album.

This is why the 1968-1972 period was so strong, the peak of Stones creativity and output. Four LPs in a row during that period that were simply great, sealing the Stones place in pop rock history as one of the all-time great rock groups.

Quote
Silver Dagger
A Bigger Bang - just about a whole album of filler. ><

Looking their output ever since, it looks like that they also made the same observation...

- Doxa

Filler or not?
For me it's simply good music or not.
Most of the so-called fillers from "The Rolling Stones No.1." to "Undercover" period are so great that I can't imagine to throw any of them out.

Quote
nightskyman

Quote
Turner68

Quote
carlorossi

Quote
Turner68
indian girl on emotional rescue,

I won't debate the merits of the Indian Girl, but "filler" means that it's plainly obvious that the band and/or songwriter just wasn't into it and therefore didn't put any serious work into it.

With Indian Girl, that's not obvious to me. Same with Winter and Break the Spell. Which is more filler, Streets of Love or Sweet Neocon? While SOL ain't that great, Mick seems to have put some serious effort into writing it. The band's fingerprints were minimal, but I won't call it filler. Sweet Neocon has a good title, but there's no evidence that anyone in the band cared one damn bit about this song. Filler. "Too Tough" is filler. I don't even know why I like that song. But it ain't because of the lyrics/performance/arrangement/energy. Mailed it straight in. Maybe that's why I like it!

it's all subjective i think, which is why it's interesting to talk about!

emotional rescue fits to me the pattern described above of a couple hits - emotional rescue and she's so cold - with a bunch of filler thrown in to make an album that can be released and sold. i think they phoned in most of the album honestly. if they'd wanted to make the best album possible perhaps they would have put some more songs from the SG/ER sessions on... clearly, it think, they wanted to save the other hits (SMU for example) for a future album.

i definitely agree with what you and others say about what might be filler actually turning out to be a great song, even if the band had no regard for it. artists are often not the best judges of their work - and time usually is. perhaps too tough is an example, i would also argue that much of EOMS the band might have considered filler (well, MJ at least) but turned out to be crucial to the album's status.

this is a good topic because there is no clear cut "right" answer and lots of opinions to discuss :-)

Following the Some Girls album, there was no way Emotional Rescue be anything other than what you just described. So I'd say many 'filler' tracks on that particular album.

This is why the 1968-1972 period was so strong, the peak of Stones creativity and output. Four LPs in a row during that period that were simply great, sealing the Stones place in pop rock history as one of the all-time great rock groups.

I think I'd actually agree with that...a lot of the tracks on ER have that 'filler' feel. However they are good filler even though they are throwaway tracks. Summer Romance and Let Me Go are in the same category as Lies and Neighbours. They aren't necessary at all, just there to fill the rest of the lines on the vinyl. However they're actually all pretty good songs.

Maybe the writing is a bit sub par, but the performances make the difference.

Quote
Silver Dagger
A Bigger Bang - just about a whole album of filler. ><

A Bigger filler

Quote
latebloomer
One person's filler is another person's treasure. Case in point, Winter. It is adored by many, including myself. Go call it filler over on the MT thread and you might lose your own...

Shame on whoever enjoys 'Short & Curlies'! I cringe just thinking about it...

Winter, however, is a very good song (I won't call it excellent, but it is by no means a...filler!