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Turner68

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kleermaker

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Turner68

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kleermaker

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Naturalust

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kleermaker

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RockingLonestar

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pepganzo
It is a great live album also with some studio works. Also waiting for Columbus of little feat has got a lot of overdubs and it is brilliant

Waiting For Columbus is one of my all time faves since it was released, way back in 1978. And it will ever be.
When the remastered and expanded Version was released in 2002, I read in the liner notes for the first time that on the album are many overdubs and edits.
But I don´t mind, it remains one of my faves of all times, not only live recordings, but recordings in general.
And for me it´s the same with GYYYO.

But with (so many) overdubs, it's no longer a live album, but a hybrid between a live and a studio album.

Technically you are 100% right. But the result is so good it doesn't matter much to me. There really isn't much to prove if the objective is to provide the best product to the people.

The value of true live recordings is rather subjective. I'm not so sure I can quantify what it means to me. There are some live recordings like Frampton Comes Alive that really draw you in with the audience sounds and participation and there are studio recordings that were basically recorded live in the studio where you can't tell what has been overdubbed. And of course the hybrids when the live flavor comes thru but overdubs have been done and the live recordiings like Fonda Theater where "corrections" have been made.

But I must admit there is a wow factor involved when a hot band is captured live and no overdubs are done. Allman Brothers at Fillmore East comes to mind.

What does a true live album/recording mean to you kleerie?

I like live music more than studio music, however great the latter can be. But nothing, not even the best sound equipment at home, can defeat the live experience of music, no matter what music it is. It doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to be perfectly in tune, but it fascinates me to hear how it really was played. So to me a true live recording is second best to a live experience. It's pure and vulnerable, different from any studio album.

i agree with you. have you seen the stones on this tour? i would strongly recommend it.

No I wouldn't do that, even if it were for free. I'm a stubborn taylorite and I don't like the live Stones any longer since 1975. I saw them nonetheless in 1976 and 1982 and heard my judgement confirmed. So I'm just half a fan, though the firt 10 years count for so much more.

In 1973 it was pure magic and overwhelming, in 1976 it was, well, enjoyable but also disappointing, but in 1982 it was all over for me. At that time they were also an anachronism. The Stones belong to the sixties and the first years of the seventies to me. In that era they were also societally relevant.

Funnily enough I like the studio Stones since 1975 absolutely more than the live Stones, though the last years I almost only listen to the live Stones from the Taylor-era. They never bore me.

you and i agree, although we differ on whether losing taylor was the source of the decline (i think GHS and IORR were disasters) or it was age, drugs, and complacency. they're a nostalgia act now. they are still loads of fun, but nonetheless a nostalgia act and, as you say, an anachronism.

Having seen at least one show on every US tour starting with 75, I find there is an ebb and flow of great nights and rough nights on every tour.
75 was rougher around the edges but raw and sexy - and hearing the IORR tracks live was great!
78 was fantastic, raw tight and stripped down with a smaller band and hearing much of Some Girls live was... Wow!
81 was energetic but Ernie Watts didn't have the right feel for the Stones, and Tattoo You is not as good as GHS or IORR - with the Taylor riffs.

The big tours that followed were big splashy spectacles until the No Security Tour when they switched to more dates in arenas, and really delivered an intimate rockin vibe with the B-Stage sets, which felt much more like the tight Stones of old.

The 2013 Taylor Tour had some really good shows (I was lucky to catch the Staples show) and this current tour has been very good.

They are not a nostalgia act. They are a working band who haven't been releasing much new material, and don't really have to. Even if they recorded the next Let It Bleed or Exile would anyone be able to let the greatness of their past go?
Could they be like Neil Young and just play new stuff? They have so many great songs that everybody wants them to play, and first timers want to hear the warhorses. The Stones come to get off with the crowd - every show.

Check the mirror because Maybe it's not the Stones who are stuck in the 60's, and maybe it's not the Stones who are a nostalgia act.

I saw them last weekend, trust me, it's a great tour, and the closest thing you will get to seeing the 60s Rolling Stones ;-)

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john lomax
Also, in HTW, Taylor's rhythm has not been replaced in the solo section - it is still there, just lower in the mix. There is no extra open-g rhythym guitar in this section.

Well, this (and former post) doesn't surprise me, but it seems as if everyone believes everything Matthijs states, even though he doesn't mention any source nor explains anything.

It may be his interpretation of what he hears, but, conform the DPM theory, that is not automatically fact.

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kleermaker

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john lomax
Also, in HTW, Taylor's rhythm has not been replaced in the solo section - it is still there, just lower in the mix. There is no extra open-g rhythym guitar in this section.

Well, this (and former post) doesn't surprise me, but it seems as if everyone believes everything Matthijs states, even though he doesn't mention any source nor explains anything.

It may be his interpretation of what he hears, but, conform the DPM theory, that is not automatically fact.

I said I wasn´t convinced about all of Mathijs´s findings. But many of them actually seem spot on.

And you clearly misunderstood something along the way here. If I suddenly insisted that Taylor didn´t play the solo on Sway, you would react, right?

BTW, your lack of respect for real musicians is amazing. You should be glad that people who actually are schooled in music take the trouble of going through stuff for other posters to learn.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-03 15:19 by DandelionPowderman.

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kleermaker

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john lomax
Also, in HTW, Taylor's rhythm has not been replaced in the solo section - it is still there, just lower in the mix. There is no extra open-g rhythym guitar in this section.

Well, this (and former post) doesn't surprise me, but it seems as if everyone believes everything Matthijs states, even though he doesn't mention any source nor explains anything.

It may be his interpretation of what he hears, but, conform the DPM theory, that is not automatically fact.

Jagger did a lot of overdubs, Richards edited his solo on Carol, maybe more, Some of Wyman's bum notes vanished, and, I think even Taylor did some edits. God knows what else. As I posted earlier in this thread, it's probably the top of the iceberg. Taylor got some bars wiped, that's what Mathijs focussed on, so he must love Taylor's playing. Enjoy the beautiful summer in Holland. Is Taylor still in our country? A (male) friend of him texted me he is relaxing these days.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-03 15:26 by LuxuryStones.

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DandelionPowderman
If I suddenly insisted that Taylor didn´t play the solo on Sway, you would react, right?

BTW, your lack of respect for real musicians is amazing. You should be glad that people who actually are schooled in music take the trouble of going through stuff for other posters to learn.

No I wouldn't. Because I know that you consider yourself a "real musician" that is "schooled in music" too, just like your comrade Matthij. So everything you say about music must be true.

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
If I suddenly insisted that Taylor didn´t play the solo on Sway, you would react, right?

BTW, your lack of respect for real musicians is amazing. You should be glad that people who actually are schooled in music take the trouble of going through stuff for other posters to learn.

No I wouldn't. Because I know that you consider yourself a "real musician" that is "schooled in music" too, just like your comrade Matthij. So everything you say about music must be true.

Yeah, that's why you thanked me for the Taylor-video I made...

Things are never black and white, kleerie. When people do research about your favourite band, from your favourite era, you should be more grateful, no matter which planet you are on.

You can all for yourself hear the overdubs if you listen to ‘@#$%& Yer Ya-Ya's Out!’ (VGP-160), ‘Get Your Ya-Ya’s Out Complete’ by DAC, ‘Get Yer Alternate Ya-Ya's Out 1969 [IMP] and The Apple Acetate ‘Get Your Yah Yah’s Out.

All overdubs are quite clear, as for most parts the original track can also be heard, and on some tracks (like Little Queenie and Jumping Jack Flash) there are overdubs that did not end up on the official release.

The days that I spent hours comparing tracks or recording sources are all long over. But I do spent quite some time in planes (I do about 70 flights per year, of which 40 intercontinental) and I do have this fabulous Bose earphone, sometimes thing suddenly stick out. Like this overdub on Honky Tonk, where I suddenly heard a third guitar. John Lomax has a point though –I did not check it with the official version, so the overdub might not be present there.

The Stray Cat overdub is obvious once you’ve heard it (that’s a nod to Johan Cruijff), and it is in open D.

For me the overdubs don’t take anything away from the greatness of the album, which I still regard as one of the best ever live albums (next to Derek and the Domino’s Live at Fillmore and Little Feat’s Waiting for Columbus).

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-03 16:44 by Mathijs.

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Mathijs
You can all for yourself here the overdubs if you listen to ‘@#$%& Yer Ya-Ya's Out!’ (VGP-160), ‘Get Your Ya-Ya’s Out Complete’ by DAC, ‘Get Yer Alternate Ya-Ya's Out 1969 [IMP] and The Apple Acetate ‘Get Your Yah Yah’s Out.

All overdubs are quite clear, as for most parts the original track can also be heard, and on some tracks (like Little Queenie and Jumping Jack Flash) there are overdubs that did not end up on the official release.

The days that I spent hours comparing tracks or recording sources are all long over. But I do spent quite some time in planes (I do about 70 flights per year, of which 40 intercontinental) and I do have this fabulous Bose earphone, sometimes thing suddenly stick out. Like this overdub on Honky Tonk, where I suddenly heard a third guitar. John Lomax has a point though –I did not check it with the official version, so the overdub might not be present there.

The Stray Cat overdub is obvious once you’ve heard it (that’s a nod to Johan Cruijff), and it is in open D.

For me the overdubs don’t take anything away from the greatness of the album, which I still regard as one of the best ever live albums (next to Derek and the Domino’s Live at Fillmore and Little Feat’s Waiting for Columbus).

Mathijs

Well, this is what I call an informative post!

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
If I suddenly insisted that Taylor didn´t play the solo on Sway, you would react, right?

BTW, your lack of respect for real musicians is amazing. You should be glad that people who actually are schooled in music take the trouble of going through stuff for other posters to learn.

No I wouldn't. Because I know that you consider yourself a "real musician" that is "schooled in music" too, just like your comrade Matthij. So everything you say about music must be true.

Yeah, that's why you thanked me for the Taylor-video I made...

Things are never black and white, kleerie. When people do research about your favourite band, from your favourite era, you should be more grateful, no matter which planet you are on.

But that doesn't mean one has to be uncritical! There are no absolute authorities here on anything regarding the music. I think I have a problem with your attitude here Dandie, about being grateful instead of critical and sometimes also sceptical, about not giving an unwelcome opinion and more of such moral things. In that way we are completely each other's opposite, just like our preference for the music.

Btw: no one here does post against his/her own will, but only for her/his pleasure, and that's a good thing. So no one has to be grateful.

Well, thanks Mathijs for posting. For my part, I am baffled by that amazing expertise gathered on this board.

dead.flowers

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
If I suddenly insisted that Taylor didn´t play the solo on Sway, you would react, right?

BTW, your lack of respect for real musicians is amazing. You should be glad that people who actually are schooled in music take the trouble of going through stuff for other posters to learn.

No I wouldn't. Because I know that you consider yourself a "real musician" that is "schooled in music" too, just like your comrade Matthij. So everything you say about music must be true.

Yeah, that's why you thanked me for the Taylor-video I made...

Things are never black and white, kleerie. When people do research about your favourite band, from your favourite era, you should be more grateful, no matter which planet you are on.

But that doesn't mean one has to be uncritical! There are no absolute authorities here on anything regarding the music. I think I have a problem with your attitude here Dandie, about being grateful instead of critical and sometimes also sceptical, about not giving an unwelcome opinion and more of such moral things. In that way we are completely each other's opposite, just like our preference for the music.

Btw: no one here does post against his/her own will, but only for her/his pleasure, and that's a good thing. So no one has to be grateful.

Grateful for the efforts, critical to the contents.

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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john lomax
Also, in HTW, Taylor's rhythm has not been replaced in the solo section - it is still there, just lower in the mix. There is no extra open-g rhythym guitar in this section.

Well, this (and former post) doesn't surprise me, but it seems as if everyone believes everything Matthijs states, even though he doesn't mention any source nor explains anything.

It may be his interpretation of what he hears, but, conform the DPM theory, that is not automatically fact.

I said I wasn´t convinced about all of Mathijs´s findings. But many of them actually seem spot on.

And you clearly misunderstood something along the way here. If I suddenly insisted that Taylor didn´t play the solo on Sway, you would react, right?

BTW, your lack of respect for real musicians is amazing. You should be glad that people who actually are schooled in music take the trouble of going through stuff for other posters to learn.

Having listened to Stray Cat again I can now hear that the overdub is indeed Open D. Sorry for doubting you Mathjis. Still not convinced about the HTW overdubs under the solo but will listen again!

I'd love to hear all the original MSG 69 performances - is there somewhere they are available online (eg you tube)??

You should be glad that people who actually are schooled in music take the trouble of going through stuff for other posters to learn.


Trouble? There are no martyrs here I hope, DP

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dead.flowers
Well, thanks Mathijs for posting. For my part, I am baffled by that amazing expertise gathered on this board.

dead.flowers

A lot of it is BS. Some people just want to be heard right or wrong.

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LuxuryStones
You should be glad that people who actually are schooled in music take the trouble of going through stuff for other posters to learn.


Trouble? There are no martyrs here I hope, DP

It's just that when people use a lot of time researching something, they don't deserve a f vck you in return, imo.

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RockinJive

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dead.flowers
Well, thanks Mathijs for posting. For my part, I am baffled by that amazing expertise gathered on this board.

dead.flowers

A lot of it is BS. Some people just want to be heard right or wrong.

Show us where it's wrong.

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DandelionPowderman

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RockinJive

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dead.flowers
Well, thanks Mathijs for posting. For my part, I am baffled by that amazing expertise gathered on this board.

dead.flowers

A lot of it is BS. Some people just want to be heard right or wrong.

Show us where it's wrong.

I do over 80 international flights a year. Prove me wrong.

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RockinJive

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DandelionPowderman

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RockinJive

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dead.flowers
Well, thanks Mathijs for posting. For my part, I am baffled by that amazing expertise gathered on this board.

dead.flowers

A lot of it is BS. Some people just want to be heard right or wrong.

Show us where it's wrong.

I do over 80 international flights a year. Prove me wrong.

Seemingly, you didn´t have any problems with the musical contents...

I too play guitar. I do think it gives insight to the technical/mechanics of what's going on.

Also, as a player, I don't simply by default defer to another musician......... However, Mathjis is damn near infallible with this stuff, and DP is real close!

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RockinJive

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DandelionPowderman

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RockinJive

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dead.flowers
Well, thanks Mathijs for posting. For my part, I am baffled by that amazing expertise gathered on this board.

dead.flowers

A lot of it is BS. Some people just want to be heard right or wrong.

Show us where it's wrong.

I do over 80 international flights a year. Prove me wrong.

I must have missed the part where someone questioned your flying international expertise. I take 350 subway rides a year with my beloved Ipod playlists in various audio formats. I've learned a lot from the various audiophiles and fellow musicians on this board and appreciate their sharing their knowledge. If I don't agree with anyone, I just move on. But I am a simple man.

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bleedingman

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RockinJive

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DandelionPowderman

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RockinJive

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dead.flowers
Well, thanks Mathijs for posting. For my part, I am baffled by that amazing expertise gathered on this board.

dead.flowers

A lot of it is BS. Some people just want to be heard right or wrong.

Show us where it's wrong.

I do over 80 international flights a year. Prove me wrong.

I must have missed the part where someone questioned your flying international expertise. I take 350 subway rides a year with my beloved Ipod playlists in various audio formats. I've learned a lot from the various audiophiles and fellow musicians on this board and appreciate their sharing their knowledge. If I don't agree with anyone, I just move on. But I am a simple man.

Im just one uping someone on this board. Someone that has a lot of bull.

Also, as a player, I don't simply by default defer to another musician......... However, Mathjis is damn near infallible with this stuff, and DP is real close![/quote]

And you have the authority to judge that, so you're surpassing even both mentioned posters. Great!

Some of these so called musicians also think keith and ronnie are "nailing it" during the last few tours. ..make up your own mind whether to trust their opinions..

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Eleanor Rigby
Some of these so called musicians also think keith and ronnie are "nailing it" during the last few tours. ..make up your own mind whether to trust their opinions..

So called musicians is right,,,,,,

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Mathijs

Stray Cat - Richards standard tuned rhythm guitar during the verses ('oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat') replaced with a much heavier open-tuned rhythm guitar


Mathijs

No, that's clearly standard tuning, naturally sounding, also because it's technically impossible to play an index finger bar mute like Keith does here with 'one finger only', you need at least two fingers (left) to support that. (no sus chords involved here)
And, most important, an open tuned guitar contains a perfect third, which isn't there were you describe the open tuning ('oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat'), be it open G, the tone b, open D, the tone f# or open E, the tone g#. You can hear the thirds in the song though, during the couplets, the b-string (in standard tuning of course). He's playing power chords during the verses, root, perfect fifth, octave using three strings. Keith's chords are neither major nor minor for that matter. At 1:25, 1:28 2:21 and 3:20 he's lifting his ring finger or changing position, the D5 into a C(5)-chord for a short moment, two or three strings at most. It also reveals the natural sound of the standard tuning. This would never happen with an open tuning in Keith's case, it would sound different... But your intuition is going in the right direction, power chords sound very heavy, especially when Keith plays it.

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LuxuryStones

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Mathijs

Stray Cat - Richards standard tuned rhythm guitar during the verses ('oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat') replaced with a much heavier open-tuned rhythm guitar


Mathijs

No, that's clearly standard tuning, naturally sounding, also because it's technically impossible to play an index finger bar mute like Keith does here with one finger only, you need at least two fingers (left) to support that. (no sus chords involved here)
And, most important, an open tuned guitar contains a perfect third, which isn't there were you describe the open tuning ('oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat'), be it open G, the tone b, open D, the tone f# or open E, the tone g#. You can hear the thirds in the song though, during the couplets, the b-string (in standard tuning of course). He's playing power chords during the verses, root, perfect fifth, octave using three strings. Keith's chords are neither major nor minor for that matter. At 1:25, 1:28 2:21 and 3:20 he's lifting his ring finger or changing position, the D5 into a C(5)-chord for a short moment, two or three strings at most. It also reveals the natural sound of the standard tuning. This would never happen with an open tuning in Keith's case, it would sound different... But your intuition is going in the right direction, power chords sound very heavy, especially when Keith plays it.

Well Dandie, I think you have to be grateful for this detailed explanation.

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kleermaker

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LuxuryStones

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Mathijs

Stray Cat - Richards standard tuned rhythm guitar during the verses ('oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat') replaced with a much heavier open-tuned rhythm guitar


Mathijs

No, that's clearly standard tuning, naturally sounding, also because it's technically impossible to play an index finger bar mute like Keith does here with one finger only, you need at least two fingers (left) to support that. (no sus chords involved here)
And, most important, an open tuned guitar contains a perfect third, which isn't there were you describe the open tuning ('oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat'), be it open G, the tone b, open D, the tone f# or open E, the tone g#. You can hear the thirds in the song though, during the couplets, the b-string (in standard tuning of course). He's playing power chords during the verses, root, perfect fifth, octave using three strings. Keith's chords are neither major nor minor for that matter. At 1:25, 1:28 2:21 and 3:20 he's lifting his ring finger or changing position, the D5 into a C(5)-chord for a short moment, two or three strings at most. It also reveals the natural sound of the standard tuning. This would never happen with an open tuning in Keith's case, it would sound different... But your intuition is going in the right direction, power chords sound very heavy, especially when Keith plays it.

Well Dandie, I think you have to be grateful for this detailed explanation.

[www.iorr.org]

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kleermaker
Also, as a player, I don't simply by default defer to another musician......... However, Mathjis is damn near infallible with this stuff, and DP is real close!

And you have the authority to judge that, so you're surpassing even both mentioned posters. Great![/quote]


Damn Kleer! I am in NO authority..... I just am saying, when I pick up a guitar to test different possibilities, and admittedly, at times effort to prove Matbjis wrong, I usually find he is indeed dead right......but I still test it..........guitar players....

As a footnote, also these days, to stay in good graces, everyone who posts must sign a waver saying that any current tour is the "best tour ever"...incredible! Or risk being exiled....