It is a work of art not a performance. Sometimes artists use a photo and then create art on top of it or distort the photo. An album in 1969 was the same. The idea was to create a perfect live experience..

"And another guitar overdub on Ya-Ya's"

Who cares. We are listening to STICKY FINGERS LIVE in 2015. Learn to live with overdubs on official releases.

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kleermaker

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Turner68

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kleermaker

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Naturalust

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kleermaker

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RockingLonestar

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pepganzo
It is a great live album also with some studio works. Also waiting for Columbus of little feat has got a lot of overdubs and it is brilliant

Waiting For Columbus is one of my all time faves since it was released, way back in 1978. And it will ever be.
When the remastered and expanded Version was released in 2002, I read in the liner notes for the first time that on the album are many overdubs and edits.
But I don´t mind, it remains one of my faves of all times, not only live recordings, but recordings in general.
And for me it´s the same with GYYYO.

But with (so many) overdubs, it's no longer a live album, but a hybrid between a live and a studio album.

Technically you are 100% right. But the result is so good it doesn't matter much to me. There really isn't much to prove if the objective is to provide the best product to the people.

The value of true live recordings is rather subjective. I'm not so sure I can quantify what it means to me. There are some live recordings like Frampton Comes Alive that really draw you in with the audience sounds and participation and there are studio recordings that were basically recorded live in the studio where you can't tell what has been overdubbed. And of course the hybrids when the live flavor comes thru but overdubs have been done and the live recordiings like Fonda Theater where "corrections" have been made.

But I must admit there is a wow factor involved when a hot band is captured live and no overdubs are done. Allman Brothers at Fillmore East comes to mind.

What does a true live album/recording mean to you kleerie?

I like live music more than studio music, however great the latter can be. But nothing, not even the best sound equipment at home, can defeat the live experience of music, no matter what music it is. It doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to be perfectly in tune, but it fascinates me to hear how it really was played. So to me a true live recording is second best to a live experience. It's pure and vulnerable, different from any studio album.

i agree with you. have you seen the stones on this tour? i would strongly recommend it.

No I wouldn't do that, even if it were for free. I'm a stubborn taylorite and I don't like the live Stones any longer since 1975. I saw them nonetheless in 1976 and 1982 and heard my judgement confirmed. So I'm just half a fan, though the firt 10 years count for so much more.

In 1973 it was pure magic and overwhelming, in 1976 it was, well, enjoyable but also disappointing, but in 1982 it was all over for me. At that time they were also an anachronism. The Stones belong to the sixties and the first years of the seventies to me. In that era they were also societally relevant.

Funnily enough I like the studio Stones since 1975 absolutely more than the live Stones, though the last years I almost only listen to the live Stones from the Taylor-era. They never bore me.

you and i agree, although we differ on whether losing taylor was the source of the decline (i think GHS and IORR were disasters) or it was age, drugs, and complacency. they're a nostalgia act now. they are still loads of fun, but nonetheless a nostalgia act and, as you say, an anachronism.

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DandelionPowderman

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LuxuryStones

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RockingLonestar

Why can´t the overdubbed rhythm parts of Taylor, especcially on Carol and Queenie, not be overdubbed by Taylor? I think he plays a very good Berry rhythm guitar on Let It Rock (Leeds and Marquee) and Star STar (Brüssel).

Probably Richards being a controle freak.

Or a producer?

well played Mr. Powderman :-)

Glyn Johns may have had something to do with it as well.

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DoomandGloom
It is a work of art not a performance. Sometimes artists use a photo and then create art on top of it or distort the photo. An album in 1969 was the same. The idea was to create a perfect live experience..

And that's exactly how it is. Expresses perfectly what I was saying in my last post.

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DoomandGloom
It is a work of art not a performance. Sometimes artists use a photo and then create art on top of it or distort the photo. An album in 1969 was the same. The idea was to create a perfect live experience..

bingo.

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kleermaker
The Stones belong to the sixties and the first years of the seventies to me. In that era they were also societally relevant.

Strangely I think the Stones might be the first to agree with you on that one, musically speaking anyway. In some ways I think the sixties and early seventies still represent the best that truly creative and exciting rock music had to offer and the time which Taylor chose his exit with Stones represents the death of it all figuratively as well as literally.

There are exceptions of course but by the 80's the true flame was extinguished and most of what came later was an attempt at rekindling it all from the coals. It partially explains my fascination with music from around 1966 to 1975 or so even though I didn't buy my first record till years later. Kids and animals have that innate sense of sincerity.

Anyway I appreciate your honesty about the issue even though I am somewhat saddened by the underlying truth of it, it certainly takes courage to express such views here on iorr in 2015. I wish I could have bought you front row seats for the Fonda show or the Belly Up, it likely wouldn't have changed your opinion but I'll bet it would have softened your heart just a wee bit. Seeing Mick Keith and Charlie still kicking out live music is pretty powerful and perhaps your imagination could have filled in the Taylor parts.

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Turner68

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DandelionPowderman

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LuxuryStones

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RockingLonestar

Why can´t the overdubbed rhythm parts of Taylor, especcially on Carol and Queenie, not be overdubbed by Taylor? I think he plays a very good Berry rhythm guitar on Let It Rock (Leeds and Marquee) and Star STar (Brüssel).

Probably Richards being a controle freak.

Or a producer?

well played Mr. Powderman :-)

Indeed, 5 children having a good daddy, Glyn Johns, who asked Richards to edit his fixed solo., or whatever.

Interesting, thanks Mathijs!

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Mathijs
Just found another guitar overdub on Ya-Ya's...During Keith's solo on Honky Tonk Women, Taylor's counter rhythm guitar is removed and replaced by Richards playing an heavy, straight forward Berry rhythm.
So now we have:

JJF - Taylor partially removed during the outro section (the E - D - C# - B parts)
Carol - Taylor's main rhythm part, overdubbed by Richards. Taylor's counter turn-arounds still present
Stray Cat - Richards standard tuned rhythm guitar during the verses ('oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat') replaced with a much heavier open-tuned rhythm guitar
Midnight Rambler - Taylor removed during parts of the slow, middle piece. Probably due to tuning problems / tuning up
Little Queenie - Taylors main rhythm guitar replaced by Richards
Honky Tonk Woman – Taylor’s rhythm guitar replaced in the solo section

Mathijs

Can't you take audio snippets and post them so we can hear the differences for ourselves?

my theory is he figured out the rhythm part during keith's solo was in open g and knew that taylor was playing standard tuning.

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kleermaker
But with (so many) overdubs, it's no longer a live album, but a hybrid between a live and a studio album.

Did you post the Ya Ya's on YouTube with the correct running order and missing songs? The missing songs sound great, what is the source of those songs?

Interesting that Keith allowed Bill's clinker in MR to stand. Bill goes to B-A-E a bar to soon before Mick's harp solo. I've learned to live with it but, Keith, you could have fixed it, and probably overdubbed the bass yourself. Still, good stuff.

If Keith didn't fix it then it was meant to be and bill's part is all the better for its daring to be nonconformist. :-)

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The Sicilian

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kleermaker
But with (so many) overdubs, it's no longer a live album, but a hybrid between a live and a studio album.

Did you post the Ya Ya's on YouTube with the correct running order and missing songs? The missing songs sound great, what is the source of those songs?

well we have both thanks in a large part to kleer.... That's what really counts right here in 2015. Were some of us fooled? I can't see how when the vocal leakage has always been evident. Got Live.. Is also part of the same chain of production. I wish there were a Beatles Ya Ya's. Funny to imagine that KR would see far enough into the future where people analyze these tracks so deeply. It is a testimony to the album. Is it a live album? I worked on quite a few and we did fixes always. By the 80's our technology was better and live recordists did a better job. Tom Dowd was a master editor and accomplished miracles with a razor blade and sampling style tricks on The Allmans at The Filmore and Cream's Wheels of Fire. The Last waltz is doctored heavily as well.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-03 06:20 by DoomandGloom.

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DoomandGloom

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The Sicilian

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kleermaker
But with (so many) overdubs, it's no longer a live album, but a hybrid between a live and a studio album.

Did you post the Ya Ya's on YouTube with the correct running order and missing songs? The missing songs sound great, what is the source of those songs?

well we have both thanks in a large part to kleer.... That's what really counts right here in 2015. Were some of us fooled? I can't see how when the vocal leakage has always been evident. Got Live.. Is also part of the same chain of production. I wish there were a Beatles Ya Ya's. Funny to imagine that KR would see far enough into the future where people analyze these tracks so deeply. It is a testimony to the album. Is it a live album? I worked on quite a few and we did hjfixes always. By the 80's our technology was better and live recordists did a better job. Tom Dowd was a master editor and accom

i think we have a consensus:

if you want to hear a band and how they sound live, go see them live.

if you want to hear an artifact that replicates in reasonable quality how they sounded on a tour, get the live album, or dvd.

if you want to hear poor audio, incomplete songs, bad mixes but exactly what was played, go on the internet and hope that some hero has posted recordings directly from the show.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-03 06:32 by Turner68.

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bleedingman
Interesting that Keith allowed Bill's clinker in MR to stand. Bill goes to B-A-E a bar to soon before Mick's harp solo. I've learned to live with it but, Keith, you could have fixed it, and probably overdubbed the bass yourself. Still, good stuff.

Bill wrote it! He should get songwriting credit! Where's the Bill Wyman thread?!?

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Mathijs
Stray Cat - Richards standard tuned rhythm guitar during the verses ('oh yeah, you're a strange stray cat') replaced with a much heavier open-tuned rhythm guitar
Mathijs

I don't hear it (not for lack of listening, I assure you). It certainly isn't the open G tuning. Not that it couldn't be an overdub, as it does sound 'heavier', as you put it. But to my ears, that chorus part is just bar chords in
standard tuning with some good punch and distortion. And if it was dubbed, perhaps Keith used a different open tuning to make it a tad easier, but I can't imagine why they would do that if the net effect is that of simple bar chords.

Not barre chords. If it's in standard tuning, it's the chord with the open A string and sus + additions.

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DandelionPowderman
Not barre chords. If it's in standard tuning, it's the chord with the open A string and sus + additions.

Ah, by 'chorus', I thought you meant the "oh yeah, you're a..." part. As for the "hangin' mattah" (A) part, I'll have to give it another listen.

EDIT: You found it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-07-03 10:00 by DandelionPowderman.

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carlorossi

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DandelionPowderman
Not barre chords. If it's in standard tuning, it's the chord with the open A string and sus + additions.

Ah, by 'chorus', I thought you meant the "oh yeah, you're a..." part. As for the "hangin' mattah" (A) part, I'll have to give it another listen.

And so I did, and right you are. Never noticed it before, excellent editing job.

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Stoneburst

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lem motlow
pretty much every live record has overdubs on it and comes up here every little while.

then we have to tell a bunch of fans that yes-there are dubs on live at leeds,the song remains the same,ya ya's and every other live record that you love.and by the way there is no santa claus.

then we get the "hey,[insert name of record no one has heard of here] has not one overdub on it.then we all take time out to yawn and think about how much we dont care.

Two of my favourites (the Allman Brothers' and Derek & The Dominos' respective Fillmore East albums) don't have overdubs, so far as I'm aware. At most, one or two songs are spliced together from different performances. And the guitar fixes on Live At Leeds and TSRTS are nowhere near as significant as the ones on Ya-Ya's.

As far as I know there are no overdubs on The Song Remains The Same (or any other Led Zeppelin officialyy released live recording), but millions of editing.If you are interested in Details: [www.thegardentapes.co.uk]

I am listening to it right now. in Carol I think Taylirs parts are still played by Taylor (ie I don't think it's Keith iverdubbing rhythym). This is because the particular sound and style of that rhythm playing is definitely Taylor.

In astray Cat the bit that Mathjis says is open tuning is not - it is standard tuning. It may be overdubbed, but td definitely standard tuning. Sounds good either way.

Also, in HTW, Taylor's rhythm has not been replaced in the solo section - it is still there, just lower in the mix. There is no extra open-g rhythym guitar in this section.

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RipThisBone
"And another guitar overdub on Ya-Ya's"

Who cares. We are listening to STICKY FINGERS LIVE in 2015. Learn to live with overdubs on official releases.

Yeah but it's interesting. They didn't play bad they just perfected an album. It's fun to compare official releases with boots

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bleedingman
Interesting that Keith allowed Bill's clinker in MR to stand. Bill goes to B-A-E a bar to soon before Mick's harp solo. I've learned to live with it but, Keith, you could have fixed it, and probably overdubbed the bass yourself. Still, good stuff.

Yeah lol! Funny because it sort of belongs in there. That mistake has to be there or it wouldn't be the yayas version of MR.

Bill has a few on Love In Vain as well.

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Redhotcarpet

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bleedingman
Interesting that Keith allowed Bill's clinker in MR to stand. Bill goes to B-A-E a bar to soon before Mick's harp solo. I've learned to live with it but, Keith, you could have fixed it, and probably overdubbed the bass yourself. Still, good stuff.

Yeah lol! Funny because it sort of belongs in there. That mistake has to be there or it wouldn't be the yayas version of MR.

I completely agree with that.