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Title5Take1

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stonehearted

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Title5Take1
From the book (mine's paperback) Playboy Interviews with John Lennon & Yoko Ono: JOHN LENNON: "'Bless You' is again about Yoko. I think Mick Jagger took 'Bless You' and turned it into 'Miss You'... The engineer kept wanting me to speed that up—he said, 'This is a hit song if you'd just do it fast.' He was right. 'Cause as 'Miss You' it turned into a hit. I like Mick's record better. I have no ill feelings about it. I think it's a GREAT Stones track, and I really love it. But I do hear that lick in it. Could be subconscious or conscious. It's irrelevant. Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it."

The only vague similarity you might hear is at 0:30, when Lennon hums a line that he claims Jagger copped for the intro melody of Miss You--still not even close. Lennon was obviously lying about having given up on drugs, because you'd need a pretty good toke and a snort to see the similarities between the two songs that he talks about.

That melodic line is repeated more than once in "Bless You," and I think Lennon's claim is possible, myself. I always wondered why Mick titled it "Miss You" instead of "I Miss You"...until I read the Lennon quote, when I thought maybe Mick— with the similarity of the title—was obliquely tipping his hat to John.

Rod Stewart—I recently read in his autobiography—was sued by Ben Jor because a melodic line in "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy" was similar to one in Ben Jor's song "Taj Majal." Rod had heard the song a bunch in South America, but hadn't consciously copied that line (he says), but when it was pointed out he promptly paid Ben Jor royalties. He realized it was a lift, even if subconscious.

It's more like a direct rip than a lift, because when you hear the musical passage in question you can obviously hear where RS got that riff from:





Just like the comparison of My Sweet Lord to He's So Fine, where major melodic hooks--and tempos--are recognizably alike. Or the horn riff in Nowhere To Run when compared to the guitar riff in Satisfaction.

But I never saw the similarity between Bless You and Miss You [Mess You?], and I still don't see it now. That humming line is not even the main musical idea, or hook, in Bless You the way that Jagger's intro defines the musical ideas and passages of Miss You. None of the lyrics sung by Lennon in Bless You have any melodic resemblance to Jagger's in Miss You. The tempos of the two songs are completely different and the melodic passage in question is not the same--not the same notes running together. Bless You was a very minor song--one of those tuneless tracks from Walls and Bridges that gets lost in one's memory like an alcoholic haze. The claim by Lennon for having influenced The Stones' most recent number 1 hit was perhaps his wishing for the old glory days of his relevance, when The Beatles led and everyone--including The Stones--followed.

My judgment is for the defendant, and the party of Jagger/Richards owes nothing in this case to the estate of Lennon. Case dismissed.

Charlie Watts explained: "A lot of those songs like 'Miss You' were heavily influenced by going to the discos. You can hear it in a lot of those four on the floor rhythms and the Philadelphia-style drumming. Mick and I used to go to discos a lot... It was a great period. I remember being in Munich and coming back from a club with Mick singing one of the Village People songs - 'Y.M.C.A.', I think it was - and Keith went mad, but it sounded great on the dance floor."

Maybe John has his songs mixed up (Well, he did write a lot of them).

Maybe he meant "Scared" instead of "Bless You".

There is some similarity in the feel and maybe some chords between "Scared" and "Miss You".

The ending guitar solo does sound sort of similar to the "Miss You" melody.

This might be the lick that Lennon was talking about.







Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-07 09:39 by howled.

Yes, and I have read an interview where Lennon says "Scared" and that he felt Mick ripped it off. For the life of me I can't find that interview though!

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whitem8
Yes, and I have read an interview where Lennon says "Scared" and that he felt Mick ripped it off. For the life of me I can't find that interview though!

You're probably thinking of the Playboy interview, as cited above by Title5Take1, where he clearly claims he thinks it's Bless You that was sped up into Miss You.

Since we are talking about songs influencing other songs and musical bits from songs being lifted and grafted onto other songs, it's probably worth mentioning to note that the bass lines from Miss You were used by Van Halen for their 1981 song Push Comes To Shove.

No, I have the playboy interview book. And it is excellent. But I read in another interview where he clearly says "Scared". And it fits. You can here it.

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Naturalust
I can't hear this tune without thinking of sweaty bodies on the dance floor and white lines in the bathroom.

Well, during live performances of this tune not only the white guys line up in the bathroom ;-)

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howled
Maybe John has his songs mixed up (Well, he did write a lot of them).

Maybe he meant "Scared" instead of "Bless You".

There is some similarity in the feel and maybe some chords between "Scared" and "Miss You".

The ending guitar solo does sound sort of similar to the "Miss You" melody.

This might be the lick that Lennon was talking about.

But are they really similar? The chords are different between the two songs.

Scared is in the key of E minor and uses the chords E minor, A minor, E minor 7, A minor 7, B minor 7, C7, B7, B flat 7, A7, E7, D7, F7, B7+ [B Augmented 7], D9, and C9.

www.e-chords.com/chords/john-lennon/scared

Miss You is in the key of A minor and uses just five chords: A minor 7, D minor 7, F, E minor, and E.

www.e-chords.com/chords/the-rolling-stones/miss-you

Scared
Intro : (2 howlings no chords), Em Am Em7 x2]

Em Am Em7
I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm scared.
Em Am Em7
I'm scared, so scared.
Em Am E
I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm scared
Am7 Bm7
As the years roll away and the price that I paid
C7 B7
as the straws slip away.
B7 Bb7 A7 F7 D7
You don't have to suffer, it is what it is.
F7
No bell, book or candle
B7 B7(+5) B7
can get you out of this, oh, no.
Em Am Em7
I'm scarred, I'm scarred, I'm scarred.
Em Am Em7
I'm scarred
Em Am Em
I'm scarred, I'm scarred, I'm scarred
Am7 Bm7
Ev'ry day of my life, I just manage
C7 B7
I just wanna stay alive.
B7 Bb7 A7 F7 D7
You don't have to worry in heaven or hell.
F7
Just dance to the music,
B7 B7(+5) B7
You do it so well, well, well.
E7 D9
Hatred and jealousy gonna be the death of me,
C9 E7
I guess I knew it right from the start.
D9
Sing out about love and peace, don't wanna see the red raw meat,
C9 E7
the green eyed goddamn straight from your heart.

[Instrumental :
Em Am Em7 x2

Em Am Em Am7
I'm tired, I'm tired, I'm tired of being so alone.
Bm7 C7 B7
No place to call my own, like a rolling stone.

(steady men...)

Ah!
Em Am Em Am Am7 Em7 Am Em7 Am Em7
Repeat and fade.


Miss You
main riff/intro:

Am Am
E|-----------------|-------------------|-------------------|
B|-----------------|-3-1---------------|-3-1---------------|
G|-------------0-2-|-----2-0-2+2---0-2-|-----2-0-2+2---0-2-|
D|-----------------|-------------------|-------------------|
A|-----------------|-------------------|-------------------|
E|-----------------|-------------------|-------------------|


Dm7
|-----------------|
|-1---------------|
|---2+------------|
|-----------------|
|-----------------|
|-----------------|


Am
I’ve been holding out so long
I’ve been sleeping all alone
Dm7
Lord I miss you
Am
I’ve been hanging on the phone
I’ve been sleeping all alone
Dm7
I want to kiss you


Am
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Dm7
Oooh oooh oooh

Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh

Well, I’ve been haunted in my sleep
You’ve been starring in my dreams
Lord I miss you
I’ve been waiting in the hall
Been waiting on your call
When the phone rings
It’s just some friends of mine that say,
Hey, what’s the matter man?
We’re gonna come around at twelve
With some puerto rican girls that are just dyin’ to meet you.
We’re gonna bring a case of wine
Hey, let’s go mess and fool around
You know, like we used to

Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah


F Em7 Dm
Oh everybody waits so long
F Em7 Dm
Oh baby why you wait so long
E7
Won’t you come on! come on!

| Am | Dm7 | Am | Dm7 |

Am
[speaking] I’ve been walking in central park
Singing after dark
Dm7
People think I’m crazy
Am
I’ve been stumbling on my feet
Shuffling through the street
Dm7
Asking people, what’s the matter with you boy?

| Am | Dm7 |

Sometimes I want to say to myself
Sometimes I say

[singing]
Am
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Dm7
Oooh oooh oooh

Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
I won’t miss you child

I guess I’m lying to myself
It’s just you and no one else
Lord I won’t miss you child
You’ve been blotting out my mind
Fooling on my time
No, I won’t miss you, baby, yeah

Lord, I miss you child

Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah

"But I do hear that lick in it"

I think John is talking about the Scared end of track guitar lick which does sound "Miss You" like, and not talking about the Scared melody or chords.

Listen to the guitar outro of Scared.
Then listen to Micks vocal "Miss You" line.

The chords are similar in the main parts but not in the whole parts.

The "minor blues" Im to IVm progression.

Em Am Em7 (Scared)

Am Dm7 Am (Miss You)

But minor blues progressions are in a lot of things and they do lend themselves to funky/disco tunes pretty well.

"Long Tain Running" by the Doobies is another "minor blues" progression.

I havn't worked out if John's guitar "Miss You" like lick is played over the Im to IVm progression in a similar way to Mick's "Miss You" vocal line, but I suspect it is and the actual notes of the Scared "Miss You" like guitar lick are probably pretty close to Micks "Miss You" vocal line.

If Mick did get inspired by parts of Scared, then I don't think it's much to make a big fuss over.

Also, the writer of the article could have got "Bless You" and Scared mixed up and not John.

"Bless You" "Miss You" have word phrase similarities, and Scared is the track right after "Bless You" on the album.

Rock journalism is sometimes not the most accurate thing around.

Mick could have mixed bits of the 2 songs together (old songwriting technique), who knows.

Maybe Mick was fooling around with the Scared outro guitar lick and started to sing "Bless You" to it which later became "Miss You", who knows.

Throw in a bit of current late 70s Disco and some Puerto Rican word stuff, and a new song is born.

Songs tend to mostly come about by just combining things.

John and Paul did this too.



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-07 13:14 by howled.

The 12" version might just as well be in my top 3 of best ever Stones tracks.

Mathijs

why is it noone quotes my intelligent post

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Mathijs
The 12" version might just as well be in my top 3 of best ever Stones tracks.

Mathijs

It is great, easily their best remix.

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DoomandGloom

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Mathijs
The 12" version might just as well be in my top 3 of best ever Stones tracks.

Mathijs

It is great, easily their best remix.

for fun - trying playing at a party where there's alot of old people dancing. after about 5 or 6 minutes they start looking around the room for respirators thinking to themselves they used to be able to make it thru the whole song with no prob.

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StonesTod

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DoomandGloom

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Mathijs
The 12" version might just as well be in my top 3 of best ever Stones tracks.

Mathijs

It is great, easily their best remix.

for fun - trying playing at a party where there's alot of old people dancing. after about 5 or 6 minutes they start looking around the room for respirators thinking to themselves they used to be able to make it thru the whole song with no prob.

Right around the time Mick starts talkin' about "you know something...I feel ABANDONED!".

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6853
why is it noone quotes my intelligent post

We were waiting for you to notice. Very intelligent observation, though, in pointing out that the song is both uptempo and in minor key. Most people don't think of it like that and wouldn't notice anyway--unless they were musicians.

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Mathijs
The 12" version might just as well be in my top 3 of best ever Stones tracks.

Mathijs

I love it too! In fact I replaced it with the Some Girls version on my iTunes so it is now as if it was orginally on Some Girls. Love it. It was meant to be this long, their modern Midnight Rambler.

Since there's some "debate" above regarding John's PLAYBOY "Miss You" quote, here's some scans from my copy of the book:
See bottom of p.225, top of p. 226:








Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-08 06:50 by Title5Take1.

I worked out both bits that are somewhat similar.

Scared starting from the 3:59 point and Miss You up to the 0:22 point.

They are both Im to IVm progressions with the melody pivoting around on the change from Im to IVm in the same sort of way.

The melodies are similar but not quite the same as Miss You tosses the notes around a bit more.

It is right up to a point, what John says.

That if the outro of Scared was speeded up and mixed up a bit then it might possibly sound somewhat like Miss You.

But, as it stands there is not much to it and if Mick used it for inspiration then big deal because there are some differences even though they are similar, that's my opinion anyway.

Forget the "Bless You" in the interview because that's not it.

Either the writer of the article or John has "Bless You" mixed up with the track that follows it on the album, which is Scared.

The "Bless You" song has nothing in common with "Miss You" except perhaps the title phrase similarity which Mick might also have used for inspiration.











Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-08 08:54 by howled.

"You are coughing all the time
wheezing and sneezing up the slime
I say Bless You"


That...could have been a disco/cold/flu/allergy hit for John.

And When the Whip Comes Down was apparently influenced by the Ramones' 53rd and 3rd. So Mick was "listening around" when writing SOME GIRLS. I can believe the BLESS YOU influence. The lick is similar, and that's all John was talking about. I don't think "John was on drugs" or "the writer got it wrong." Maybe John's wrong, but I can understand why he said what he said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-08 19:55 by Title5Take1.

John also blamed The Allmans for lifting One Way Out from I Feel Fine. These were interesting years for Lennon not having people to help edit his flippancy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-09 00:49 by DoomandGloom.

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Title5Take1
And When the Whip Comes Down was apparently influenced by the Ramones' 53rd and 3rd. So Mick was "listening around" when writing SOME GIRLS. I can believe the BLESS YOU influence. The lick is similar, and that's all John was talking about. I don't think "John was on drugs" or "the writer got it wrong." Maybe John's wrong, but I can understand why he said what he said.

I don't think John meant it in a bitchy way either....Mick and John had been close friends in the 70s....I don't doubt Jagger was listening to John's music at some point. I don't really hear the similarity music-wise, but it seems like harmless conjecture on John's part.

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stonehearted

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6853
why is it noone quotes my intelligent post

We were waiting for you to notice. Very intelligent observation, though, in pointing out that the song is both uptempo and in minor key. Most people don't think of it like that and wouldn't notice anyway--unless they were musicians.

Thanks Stonehearted, thanks for your intelligent remark () I have to ask : is it possible that peple can TALK about music, withhout talking about the MUSIC ?

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Title5Take1
And When the Whip Comes Down was apparently influenced by the Ramones' 53rd and 3rd. So Mick was "listening around" when writing SOME GIRLS. I can believe the BLESS YOU influence. The lick is similar, and that's all John was talking about. I don't think "John was on drugs" or "the writer got it wrong." Maybe John's wrong, but I can understand why he said what he said.

There was a nasty rumor in NY that said Mick would send out people with recorders to the popular NY clubs and look to lift some hooks.

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6853

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stonehearted

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6853
why is it noone quotes my intelligent post

We were waiting for you to notice. Very intelligent observation, though, in pointing out that the song is both uptempo and in minor key. Most people don't think of it like that and wouldn't notice anyway--unless they were musicians.

Thanks Stonehearted, thanks for your intelligent remark () I have to ask : is it possible that peple can TALK about music, withhout talking about the MUSIC ?

Wow, 6853, you've practically presented a Zen koan that I could take hours, or even years, attempting to answer. I guess I'll venture and say that talk is talk, but music says it all, really....more than mere words ever could.

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DoomandGloom

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Title5Take1
And When the Whip Comes Down was apparently influenced by the Ramones' 53rd and 3rd. So Mick was "listening around" when writing SOME GIRLS. I can believe the BLESS YOU influence. The lick is similar, and that's all John was talking about. I don't think "John was on drugs" or "the writer got it wrong." Maybe John's wrong, but I can understand why he said what he said.

There was a nasty rumor in NY that said Mick would send out people with recorders to the popular NY clubs and look to lift some hooks.

Musicians listen and absorb...that's influence. In the Nicky Hopkins bio, some guy, can't remember his name, claimed that Mick and Keith would get session musicians to come in and jam in the studio, and they would record the session and use the material without giving credit to these unnamed musicians....
So apparently, there are dozens of sessions players running around writing all these classic riffs....
People who make these kind of claims are just envious. There is one musician who was a bass player in NY in the mid-60s who tried to claim that all the demos recorded by NY session musicians were sent to Muscle Shoals and they (MS guys) would 'copy' the demos and take credit.
Jealousy. That's all that is...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-10 04:36 by stupidguy2.

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stupidguy2

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DoomandGloom

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Title5Take1
And When the Whip Comes Down was apparently influenced by the Ramones' 53rd and 3rd. So Mick was "listening around" when writing SOME GIRLS. I can believe the BLESS YOU influence. The lick is similar, and that's all John was talking about. I don't think "John was on drugs" or "the writer got it wrong." Maybe John's wrong, but I can understand why he said what he said.

There was a nasty rumor in NY that said Mick would send out people with recorders to the popular NY clubs and look to lift some hooks.

Musicians listen and absorb...that's influence. In the Nicky Hopkins bio, some guy, can't remember his name, claimed that Mick and Keith would get session musicians to come in and jam in the studio, and they would record the session and use the material without giving credit to these unnamed musicians....
So apparently, there are dozens of sessions players running around writing all these classic riffs....
People who make these kind of claims are just envious. There is one musician who was a bass player in NY in the mid-60s who tried to claim that all the demos recorded by NY session musicians were sent to Muscle Shoals and they (MS guys) would 'copy' the demos and take credit.
Jealousy. That's all that is...

Ry Cooder has made similar claims as well. I'm sure you've heard Cooder's famous quote on The Stones: "They're bloodsuckers, man!" Below, for instance, is an account of how Honky Tonk Women came to be, at least in terms of musical style:

If you wonder what his sensibility sounds like when applied to rock ‘n’ roll—one version of it anyway—the most widely known example I can think of comes from the period when Cooder had been hired to augment the Rolling Stones during the recording of “Let It Bleed.” He was playing by himself in the studio, goofing around with some changes, when Mick Jagger danced over and said, How do you do that? You tune the E string down to D, place your fingers there, and pull them off quickly, that’s very good. Keith, perhaps you should see this. And before long, the Rolling Stones were collecting royalties for “Honky Tonk Women,” which sounds precisely like a Ry Cooder song and absolutely nothing like any other song ever produced by the Rolling Stones in more than forty years. According to Richards in his recent autobiography, Cooder showed him the open G tuning which became his mainstay and accounts for the full-bodied chordal declarations that characterize songs such as “Gimme Shelter,” “Jumpin’ Jack Flash,” “Start Me Up,” and “Brown Sugar.” The most succinct way I can think of to describe the latticed style that Keith Richards says he has sought to achieve with Ron Wood is to say that for thirty-five years the Stones have been trying to do with four hands what Cooder can do with two.

Read more:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/08/ry-cooder-pull-up-some-dust-and-sit-down.html#ixzz2HbsAIwDB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-01-10 23:23 by stonehearted.

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stonehearted
How do you do that? You tune the E string down to D, place your fingers there, and pull them off quickly, that’s very good. Keith, perhaps you should see this. And before long, the Rolling Stones were collecting royalties for “Honky Tonk Women,”

Wow, so what exactly is Ry Cooder implying...that he invented the open G tuning? He's very conveniently skipping a whole chunk of the story just to imply that they stole the song off him. And the argument that no other song sounds like HTW is proof that they never wrote it is stupid. "Gimme Shelter" or "Paint It Black" don't sound like any other song in their catalog..so..did they not write those either?

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Justin

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stonehearted
How do you do that? You tune the E string down to D, place your fingers there, and pull them off quickly, that’s very good. Keith, perhaps you should see this. And before long, the Rolling Stones were collecting royalties for “Honky Tonk Women,”

Wow, so what exactly is Ry Cooder implying...that he invented the open G tuning? He's very conveniently skipping a whole chunk of the story just to imply that they stole the song off him. And the argument that no other song sounds like HTW is proof that they never wrote it is stupid. "Gimme Shelter" or "Paint It Black" don't sound like any other song in their catalog..so..did they not write those either?

Depending on the interview and how they choose to present it they can make Ry look like a very bitter guy. I can't imagine he would claim ownership of Open anything...the tunings have been around forever...He can hang his hat on the fact that he taught KR the tuning if true...but he never wrote Tumbling Dice or Can't You Hear Me Knocking. Ry does great work with John Hiatt that I love but I have never liked solo Ry. He's missing several elements of the soup.