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well said 24FPS !! elsewhere on this board this year I was not believed by some when I told of a conversation I recently had with Paul Jones (Pond) who was asked to be singer by Brian for his new band before Jagger and turned him down. Recently I read Donovan's Hurdy Gurdy autobiography in which he says that Linda Lawrence confirmed that Jagger was not first choice for Brians band, a member of the Pretty Things was considered before Jagger.
You don't know that, but anyway, there is only what happened, nothing else.
Surely, but if there not had been Mick Jagger and Keith Richards involved, I suspect I wouldn't been writing here. Of course, neither if there had not been Brian Jones and his original idea of the band... However, Brian's original idea and his blues enthusiasism and early band leadership and commitment is only one condition that was necessary for the Stones to come true. Without Mick and Keith there is no Stones in any sensible meaning of the word. Those two guys are essential guys. Even though the Stones were "Brian's baby", to grow up it needed much more than his creative mind. Thanks for him for choosing the "right" guys having the potentiality to do that.
- Doxa
- Doxa
Well said
Popperfoto:
One really does wonder. This (in parts) rather bizarre statement can be found on the web page dedicated to Mick Taylor:
"Mick Taylor plays on the albums many Stones fans consider to be the greatest of the band’s career, with the possible exception of A Bigger Bang."
Now, that is a funny.
One thing that comes to mind are the videos of the band performing in 65 that no longer shows the happy Brian we saw in 64. In 66 I think he actually thought it was about to change when Keith moved in with him. But the Anita-affair destroyed all that.
As I see it three things made him stay during all that time 1. That he was allowed to be creative musically 2. That he got to live the life of a pop star although he didn't care much for the music and 3. He still considered the band to be his baby.
To the others he was seen as a difficult whiner afterwards. It's like they expect him to put his feelings aside for Oldham and the glimmer's vision and denying his own with no fuzz. Brian has never been able to tell his story but I bet he would have described the glimmers and Oldham as annoying bastards as well. The tone in the interview with him from 69 isn't friendly.
I'm not saying that Brian was innocent or anything. We all know that he was self destructive and insecure bastard. Nothing that helped him at all. I'm just trying from what I've read to see things from his perspective.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-08-30 12:24 by tonterapi.
Yeah, Ive been meaning to talk with you about this...
Can yah just save for interviews and books etc after I'm dead?
[/quote]
Yeah, but it was all about flat out, hard rock and roll at that point and Brian had dropped out of that years earlier, if ever. The live 'Movin' On' is one of the few instances I feel him really rocking out on that slide. But then again, he might have approached that as 'colouring' to a song. Brian probably needed to come out of the drug fog and get some slats under his self esteem. Look at him in the end. He's flabby with puffed out eyes. He'd practically destroyed his liver by the age of 27. Brian had serious problems, regardless of how he was treated or anything else going on.
He very well might have been an addict who needed serious treatment. Unfortunately he was the poster boy for what could happen. Of course no one took notice. It took the beheading of American Rock Royalty with Jimi, Janis, and Jim Morrison around the corner before some people sobered up about the dangers of drugs. And if it was all about his mistreatment by Mick & Keith, why did he have to alienate Bill, Charlie and Stu? It's too bad we can't get an outside who was close to Brian to give their story. I wonder if anyone even tried to approach his sister for the documentary? Or if she even knew what was going on inside the Stones.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: August 29, 2012 20:39
Of all the great shots of Brian Jones the official site uses a few weird choices. Nothing from 1966, nothing with Brian and Anita nothing were he's shown as the star he was. Instead you get this: Rollingstones.com
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
stonesrule
()
Date: August 29, 2012 21:02
Just took a look at the site. I feel differently from you.
Thought these photos were very Brian.
After all, he's been gone for more than 40 years. A photo with Anita would be rather tasteless.
Thought these photos were very Brian.
After all, he's been gone for more than 40 years. A photo with Anita would be rather tasteless.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: August 29, 2012 21:04
You wonder who writes the stuff. It's like you feel the hand of Mick controlling even the history of the band. Read around all the bio stuff and they leave the impression that it was Mick and Keith who had the idea for a band, and Brian and the others were some talented guys they ran into and took into their group. I haven't found a mention on there of Brian and Stu having they idea for a band, posting the ad, and that Mick & Keith had to audition for Brian and Stu's group, the eventual Rollin' Stones.
Thank god for Bill Wyman and his perspective. It may be colored a bit by his own bitterness, but at least it's unvarnished by the controlling edit pens of the Glimmer Twins.
Thank god for Bill Wyman and his perspective. It may be colored a bit by his own bitterness, but at least it's unvarnished by the controlling edit pens of the Glimmer Twins.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
georgie48
()
Date: August 29, 2012 21:18
Over the Centuries many have tried to change history, but failed hopelessly. The truth will prevail in the end. Brian will be remembered for how he started the Rolling Stones, as well as his great musical talents, which he wasted so sadly in the end.
But today is today and it is fantastic to know that the band is back in the studio and hopefully soon on the road again! Isn't it that what we all want after all?
But today is today and it is fantastic to know that the band is back in the studio and hopefully soon on the road again! Isn't it that what we all want after all?
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: August 29, 2012 21:28
Quote
georgie48
Over the Centuries many have tried to change history, but failed hopelessly. The truth will prevail in the end. Brian will be remembered for how he started the Rolling Stones, as well as his great musical talents, which he wasted so sadly in the end.
But today is today and it is fantastic to know that the band is back in the studio and hopefully soon on the road again! Isn't it that what we all want after all?
IORR fans want everything in the world, you can possibly imagine....
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
Kingbeebuzz
()
Date: August 29, 2012 22:05
Quote
24FPS
You wonder who writes the stuff. It's like you feel the hand of Mick controlling even the history of the band. Read around all the bio stuff and they leave the impression that it was Mick and Keith who had the idea for a band, and Brian and the others were some talented guys they ran into and took into their group. I haven't found a mention on there of Brian and Stu having they idea for a band, posting the ad, and that Mick & Keith had to audition for Brian and Stu's group, the eventual Rollin' Stones.
Thank god for Bill Wyman and his perspective. It may be colored a bit by his own bitterness, but at least it's unvarnished by the controlling edit pens of the Glimmer Twins.
well said 24FPS !! elsewhere on this board this year I was not believed by some when I told of a conversation I recently had with Paul Jones (Pond) who was asked to be singer by Brian for his new band before Jagger and turned him down. Recently I read Donovan's Hurdy Gurdy autobiography in which he says that Linda Lawrence confirmed that Jagger was not first choice for Brians band, a member of the Pretty Things was considered before Jagger.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 29, 2012 22:07
Donovan likes his stories.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 29, 2012 23:24
Technically Brian formed the band but however The Stones was actually a product of sharing the forces of Brian and his idea of the band (including Stu) and Little Boy Blue and The Blues Boys. When Mick, Keith and Dick Taylor came onboard the band was founded, and had a musical orientation different to Brian's skectchy original idea. With Mick and Keith also Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley arrived, which turned out to be foundational feature of The Stones sound. If Brian had chosen, say, someone else, there never had been The Rolling Stones. Maybe something with that name, but we would not be writing here.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-08-29 23:26 by Doxa.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-08-29 23:26 by Doxa.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 29, 2012 23:32
Quote
Doxa
If Brian had chosen, say, someone else, there never had been The Rolling Stones. Maybe something with that name, but we would not be writing here.
- Doxa
You don't know that, but anyway, there is only what happened, nothing else.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 29, 2012 23:46
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Doxa
If Brian had chosen, say, someone else, there never had been The Rolling Stones. Maybe something with that name, but we would not be writing here.
- Doxa
You don't know that, but anyway, there is only what happened, nothing else.
Surely, but if there not had been Mick Jagger and Keith Richards involved, I suspect I wouldn't been writing here. Of course, neither if there had not been Brian Jones and his original idea of the band... However, Brian's original idea and his blues enthusiasism and early band leadership and commitment is only one condition that was necessary for the Stones to come true. Without Mick and Keith there is no Stones in any sensible meaning of the word. Those two guys are essential guys. Even though the Stones were "Brian's baby", to grow up it needed much more than his creative mind. Thanks for him for choosing the "right" guys having the potentiality to do that.
- Doxa
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 29, 2012 23:50
Quote
DoxaQuote
His MajestyQuote
Doxa
If Brian had chosen, say, someone else, there never had been The Rolling Stones. Maybe something with that name, but we would not be writing here.
- Doxa
You don't know that, but anyway, there is only what happened, nothing else.
Surely
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 29, 2012 23:55
Quote
His MajestyQuote
DoxaQuote
His MajestyQuote
Doxa
If Brian had chosen, say, someone else, there never had been The Rolling Stones. Maybe something with that name, but we would not be writing here.
- Doxa
You don't know that, but anyway, there is only what happened, nothing else.
Surely
- Doxa
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: August 30, 2012 00:43
Brian was the fuse to the dynamite. We'll never have his recollection on what exactly happened. (I don't think there's any such interview where he opens up and looks back). He is as important the to the foundation sound of the Rolling Stones as anyone. Brian is the one who turned Keith on to Robert Johnson, from whence they began 'weaving', basically using two guitars just to imitate what Johnson did with one. That hypnotic, opiated aura to the early music comes from Brian and his harmonica playing, and continues through his haunting work on Little Red Rooster, through No Expectations.
The pop era of the Stones would not have been as rich without Brian and the ever changing musical directions he enabled them to turn to. Sure he was a turd, personally to them. (Even though Mick claims 'not to have known him that well'.) And his strange passive aggressive nature and eventual disentegration was a boulder around the band's neck. But please, give him his do. Warts and all he is one of the most fascinating figures of 1960s British music.
The pop era of the Stones would not have been as rich without Brian and the ever changing musical directions he enabled them to turn to. Sure he was a turd, personally to them. (Even though Mick claims 'not to have known him that well'.) And his strange passive aggressive nature and eventual disentegration was a boulder around the band's neck. But please, give him his do. Warts and all he is one of the most fascinating figures of 1960s British music.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 30, 2012 00:46
Quote
24FPS
Brian was the fuse to the dynamite. We'll never have his recollection on what exactly happened. (I don't think there's any such interview where he opens up and looks back). He is as important the to the foundation sound of the Rolling Stones as anyone. Brian is the one who turned Keith on to Robert Johnson, from whence they began 'weaving', basically using two guitars just to imitate what Johnson did with one. That hypnotic, opiated aura to the early music comes from Brian and his harmonica playing, and continues through his haunting work on Little Red Rooster, through No Expectations.
The pop era of the Stones would not have been as rich without Brian and the ever changing musical directions he enabled them to turn to. Sure he was a turd, personally to them. (Even though Mick claims 'not to have known him that well'.) And his strange passive aggressive nature and eventual disentegration was a boulder around the band's neck. But please, give him his do. Warts and all he is one of the most fascinating figures of 1960s British music.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
2000 LYFH
()
Date: August 30, 2012 01:19
Quote
24FPS
Brian was the fuse to the dynamite. We'll never have his recollection on what exactly happened. (I don't think there's any such interview where he opens up and looks back). He is as important the to the foundation sound of the Rolling Stones as anyone. Brian is the one who turned Keith on to Robert Johnson, from whence they began 'weaving', basically using two guitars just to imitate what Johnson did with one. That hypnotic, opiated aura to the early music comes from Brian and his harmonica playing, and continues through his haunting work on Little Red Rooster, through No Expectations.
The pop era of the Stones would not have been as rich without Brian and the ever changing musical directions he enabled them to turn to. Sure he was a turd, personally to them. (Even though Mick claims 'not to have known him that well'.) And his strange passive aggressive nature and eventual disentegration was a boulder around the band's neck. But please, give him his do. Warts and all he is one of the most fascinating figures of 1960s British music.
Well said
Popperfoto:
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: August 30, 2012 03:41
I was thinking of another thing that makes him fascinating to this group. I don't think he even liked rock and roll! That's two of them, Brian & Charlie. Both associated with the later named Greatest blah, blah, in the world. He was out of step with his own times by 1968. He could add some 'colouring' to them, ala Last Time, or 19th Nervous Breakdown, but they were just pop songs to him.
He was a blues man first, and a rhythm and blues man second. I think he actually looked down his nose at straight rock and roll. What a character. And yet he was listening to CCR at the end! Well, I guess Proud Mary is not rock and roll and I don't know what else he liked on that album. It was kind of swamp music, with a little bit of straight rock and roll.
He would have been totally useless on the '69 tour.
He was a blues man first, and a rhythm and blues man second. I think he actually looked down his nose at straight rock and roll. What a character. And yet he was listening to CCR at the end! Well, I guess Proud Mary is not rock and roll and I don't know what else he liked on that album. It was kind of swamp music, with a little bit of straight rock and roll.
He would have been totally useless on the '69 tour.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
xke38
()
Date: August 30, 2012 11:07
Quote
24FPS
You wonder who writes the stuff. It's like you feel the hand of Mick controlling even the history of the band. Read around all the bio stuff and they leave the impression that it was Mick and Keith who had the idea for a band, and Brian and the others were some talented guys they ran into and took into their group. I haven't found a mention on there of Brian and Stu having they idea for a band, posting the ad, and that Mick & Keith had to audition for Brian and Stu's group, the eventual Rollin' Stones.
Thank god for Bill Wyman and his perspective. It may be colored a bit by his own bitterness, but at least it's unvarnished by the controlling edit pens of the Glimmer Twins.
One really does wonder. This (in parts) rather bizarre statement can be found on the web page dedicated to Mick Taylor:
"Mick Taylor plays on the albums many Stones fans consider to be the greatest of the band’s career, with the possible exception of A Bigger Bang."
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 30, 2012 12:07
Quote
xke38
"Mick Taylor plays on the albums many Stones fans consider to be the greatest of the band’s career, with the possible exception of A Bigger Bang."
Now, that is a funny.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
tonterapi
()
Date: August 30, 2012 12:22
It's often said how diffcult Brian was and what a PIA he was to the band. But I think that's one way to look at it. When Brian started it all he had his vision of the band and he always seem to have this "keep it real" attitude towards music. That vision or attitude wasn't shared by Oldham or Mick and was as I've understood it one of the main reasons why Oldham and Brian never got along and why it had to be Mick and Keith leading the band for them to evolve. During that take over and afterwards Brian must have felt pretty shitty and a bit betrayed. The passive aggressive and destructive behaviour he is known for seem to have become worse after that with all the stress of touring and the alpha male BS.Quote
24FPS
Sure he was a turd, personally to them. (Even though Mick claims 'not to have known him that well'.) And his strange passive aggressive nature and eventual disentegration was a boulder around the band's neck. But please, give him his do. Warts and all he is one of the most fascinating figures of 1960s British music.
One thing that comes to mind are the videos of the band performing in 65 that no longer shows the happy Brian we saw in 64. In 66 I think he actually thought it was about to change when Keith moved in with him. But the Anita-affair destroyed all that.
As I see it three things made him stay during all that time 1. That he was allowed to be creative musically 2. That he got to live the life of a pop star although he didn't care much for the music and 3. He still considered the band to be his baby.
To the others he was seen as a difficult whiner afterwards. It's like they expect him to put his feelings aside for Oldham and the glimmer's vision and denying his own with no fuzz. Brian has never been able to tell his story but I bet he would have described the glimmers and Oldham as annoying bastards as well. The tone in the interview with him from 69 isn't friendly.
I'm not saying that Brian was innocent or anything. We all know that he was self destructive and insecure bastard. Nothing that helped him at all. I'm just trying from what I've read to see things from his perspective.
If he had felt better and have had more to say about the music I think he could have been a great colourist. I like the idea of having both Taylor and Brian Jones in the band on 'Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!'.Quote
24FPS
He would have been totally useless on the '69 tour.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-08-30 12:24 by tonterapi.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 30, 2012 12:32
"We recognise in others that which we know most deeply within our selves."
- Robert Fripp
...
Mick, Keith and ALO know Brian was a whiney pain in the ass because they too were a whiney pain in the ass. In the world of The Rolling Stones it seems it was ok for Mick and Keith to be selfish @#$%&, but if anyone else was, or was seen to be by Mick and Keith they got shit for it. I believe it is called hypocrisy.
I recognise these traits in them because I too can be a very hypocritical, whiney pain in the ass.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-08-30 12:50 by His Majesty.
- Robert Fripp
...
Mick, Keith and ALO know Brian was a whiney pain in the ass because they too were a whiney pain in the ass. In the world of The Rolling Stones it seems it was ok for Mick and Keith to be selfish @#$%&, but if anyone else was, or was seen to be by Mick and Keith they got shit for it. I believe it is called hypocrisy.
I recognise these traits in them because I too can be a very hypocritical, whiney pain in the ass.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-08-30 12:50 by His Majesty.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: August 30, 2012 12:48
And my point is that in the history of this band it is a fact that he was not the songwriter but the star, the image, the lifestyle, half of Branita and 1966 he was the coolness of rock. He had it down that year, in image and music. And in the start he was the leader, it was his band. I dont think its wrong to paint that portrait AND the other part, the downfall in Morocco. It's one of those stories and noone has to blaim Keith. Not about that, just part of rock history and part of their past.
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
2000 LYFH
()
Date: August 30, 2012 15:37
Quote
His Majesty
"We recognise in others that which we know most deeply within our selves."
- Robert Fripp
...
Mick, Keith and ALO know Brian was a whiney pain in the ass because they too were a whiney pain in the ass. In the world of The Rolling Stones it seems it was ok for Mick and Keith to be selfish @#$%&, but if anyone else was, or was seen to be by Mick and Keith they got shit for it. I believe it is called hypocrisy.
I recognise these traits in them because I too can be a very hypocritical, whiney pain in the ass.
Yeah, Ive been meaning to talk with you about this...
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 30, 2012 17:00
Quote
2000 LYFHQuote
His Majesty
"We recognise in others that which we know most deeply within our selves."
- Robert Fripp
...
Mick, Keith and ALO know Brian was a whiney pain in the ass because they too were a whiney pain in the ass. In the world of The Rolling Stones it seems it was ok for Mick and Keith to be selfish @#$%&, but if anyone else was, or was seen to be by Mick and Keith they got shit for it. I believe it is called hypocrisy.
I recognise these traits in them because I too can be a very hypocritical, whiney pain in the ass.
Yeah, Ive been meaning to talk with you about this...
Can yah just save for interviews and books etc after I'm dead?
Re: Official Rolling Stones site and Brian Jones
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: August 30, 2012 21:12
If he had felt better and have had more to say about the music I think he could have been a great colourist. I like the idea of having both Taylor and Brian Jones in the band on 'Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!'.Quote
24FPS
He would have been totally useless on the '69 tour.
[/quote]Yeah, but it was all about flat out, hard rock and roll at that point and Brian had dropped out of that years earlier, if ever. The live 'Movin' On' is one of the few instances I feel him really rocking out on that slide. But then again, he might have approached that as 'colouring' to a song. Brian probably needed to come out of the drug fog and get some slats under his self esteem. Look at him in the end. He's flabby with puffed out eyes. He'd practically destroyed his liver by the age of 27. Brian had serious problems, regardless of how he was treated or anything else going on.
He very well might have been an addict who needed serious treatment. Unfortunately he was the poster boy for what could happen. Of course no one took notice. It took the beheading of American Rock Royalty with Jimi, Janis, and Jim Morrison around the corner before some people sobered up about the dangers of drugs. And if it was all about his mistreatment by Mick & Keith, why did he have to alienate Bill, Charlie and Stu? It's too bad we can't get an outside who was close to Brian to give their story. I wonder if anyone even tried to approach his sister for the documentary? Or if she even knew what was going on inside the Stones.
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