It's an interesting ethics question about whether Mick and Keith were jerks in taking ALL of the Verve's money - ESPECIALLY since The Last Time was ripped off a gospel tune in the first place and the symphonic version sounds nothing like anything the Stones recorded. Without going through the whole elaborate story here, what do you think? IMO, they should have at least split the songwriting fees, regardless of Alan Klein's nefarious doings.

I think they still have a law-of-the-jungle view of things that is a holdover from the sixties.

I think all the money should go to Andrew L Oldham, I still don't get/hear the connection with The Last Time

__________________________

But isn't The Last Time under ABKCO's control? I don't think the suit originated from Mick and Keith themselves. After all, it was Keith who advised Mick to put kd lang's name as cowriter on Anybody Seen My Baby so that they wouldn't be sued. And this was a couple of years after that Verve business, wasn't it?

Quote
stonesnow
But isn't The Last Time under ABKCO's control? I don't think the suit originated from Mick and Keith themselves. After all, it was Keith who advised Mick to put kd lang's name as cowriter on Anybody Seen My Baby so that they wouldn't be sued. And this was a couple of years after that Verve business, wasn't it?

It is, and Alan Klein initiated the suit, however Mick & Keith were beneficiaries of the lawsuit. They still get songwriting royalties from ABKCO, as I understand it.

Song credits

Although the song's lyrics were written by Verve vocalist Richard Ashcroft, it has been credited to Keith Richards and Mick Jagger after charges by the original copyright owners that the song was plagiarized from the Andrew Oldham Orchestra recording of The Rolling Stones' 1965 song "The Last Time".

Originally, The Verve had negotiated a licence to use a sample from the Oldham recording, but it was successfully argued that the Verve had used "too much" of the sample.[13][14] Despite having original lyrics, the music of "Bitter Sweet Symphony" is partially based on the Oldham track, which led to a lawsuit with ABKCO Records, Allen Klein's company that owns the rights to the Rolling Stones material of the 1960s. The matter was eventually settled, with copyright of the song reverting to Abkco and songwriting credits to Jagger and Richards.

You can find the complete story here...............

[en.wikipedia.org]

__________________________

Quote
Send It To me

Quote
stonesnow
But isn't The Last Time under ABKCO's control? I don't think the suit originated from Mick and Keith themselves. After all, it was Keith who advised Mick to put kd lang's name as cowriter on Anybody Seen My Baby so that they wouldn't be sued. And this was a couple of years after that Verve business, wasn't it?

It is, and Alan Klein initiated the suit, however Mick & Keith were beneficiaries of the lawsuit. They still get songwriting royalties from ABKCO, as I understand it.

Yes, but Mick and Keith themselves never would have initiated the suit. Therefore, to address your initial ethics question, the only jerk in the matter is the one who brought suit, for it was done out of greed.

If you want to know all .........here you go..................

[www.iorr.org]

__________________________

The only thing that doesn't really have some connection to the stones or ALO's version is the lyrics.

The vocal melody on BS is taken from the string line from the ALO version, which is just a slightly re-worked, slowed down version of the stones Last Time melody. The guitar parts on both the ALO version and BS are slightly re-worked, slowed down versions of Brians riff.

One could argue the skipping string motif on BS is original, but it does have some connections to Brians riff. Regardless, it's a great motif.

The Verve were some what shafted though cos Klein moved the goal posts when he knew it was going to be something special/saw another chance to make more money... even with the obvious borrowing Bittersweet Symphony is most definitely special!

Essentially, what the Verve did is no different to what the stones and loads of other bands have done many times... they re-wrote something they liked and threw in some original ideas, but kept a whole lot of borrowed stuff too.

The whole mess is all about greed and business, greed and business which is killing creativity.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-03 01:22 by His Majesty.

1:30 I guess Jagger dont mind

1:30 he he I guess Jagger dont mind

...as Keith said..."It's all Lawyer $#!T"

All down to Klein..

ROCKMAN

"the melody ... Is the Verve's".

Good ol' denial.

Maybe the money should go to the Staple Singers?

Quote
ryanpow
Maybe the money should go to the Staple Singers?

For a short phrase?

Besides saying "it's lawyer sh*#t", Keith added, "alright then guys, next time be more original and you can keep the money". :-) That's not an exact quote, but pretty close. I don't think he or Mick cared one way or the other. And I don't think they could have done anything to stop the suit. They get a pass on this one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-03 04:05 by carlorossi.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
ryanpow
Maybe the money should go to the Staple Singers?

For a short phrase?

they get a cut then.

Maybe if they hadn't sold the song to every movie and advertisement in the world coming out at the time, the song would have gone under the radar and not attracted a lawsuit.

After the lead singer made his comment about how it was the "best song Jagger/Richards have written in 20 years", and called it the best Stones song since "Brown Sugar", I don't blame Mick and Keith for keeping the money. If some one-hit-wonders want to talk sh!t, they can pay the price of admission.

I remember listening to the song and being totally mystified about this whole thing. One big lump of Klein shit is what it is. It's too bad.

One wonders whether anyone would have ever known if they had never asked permission or credited the source. NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-03 05:53 by Send It To me.

The article posted by Rockman stating embedded in the tune, down to where you can hardly hear it??!! When this whole lawsuit came out, I had never heard the ALO version of The Last Time and wondered how Bittersweet Symphony could sound like it. When you listen to the ALO Last Time on Youtube, you'll see that the Verve basically just put their own lyrics over the ALO song! I would have sued if I was Klein, too!

I like the song, but feel sad about the battle over ownership.

I guess I'm bittersweet about the whole thing.

Dont blame Klein or some laywers. BTW the riff is the song and that riff was one of Brian's.

Quote
His Majesty
The only thing that doesn't really have some connection to the stones or ALO's version is the lyrics.

The vocal melody on BS is taken from the string line from the ALO version, which is just a slightly re-worked, slowed down version of the stones Last Time melody. The guitar parts on both the ALO version and BS are slightly re-worked, slowed down versions of Brians riff.

One could argue the skipping string motif on BS is original, but it does have some connections to Brians riff. Regardless, it's a great motif.

The Verve were some what shafted though cos Klein moved the goal posts when he knew it was going to be something special/saw another chance to make more money... even with the obvious borrowing Bittersweet Symphony is most definitely special!

Essentially, what the Verve did is no different to what the stones and loads of other bands have done many times... they re-wrote something they liked and threw in some original ideas, but kept a whole lot of borrowed stuff too.

The whole mess is all about greed and business, greed and business which is killing creativity.

I don't know about greed, but it is in the end a business deal that is very common in the world of music. If I want to use the Satisfaction riff as a sample in some track I wrote I must contact ABKCO and make a deal about the publishing rights and the credits. If I then break the deal and use the entire backing track of Satisfaction, write some new lyrics and then earn a couple of million dollars with it, ABKCO will get back to me and will demand the deal will be renegociated. There's really nothing new to this business end of it.

And it is this kind of money making that has madse Klein big, and what drew the Stones and the Beatles to Klein: he could find money that other managers missed out on.

Mathijs

The Verve took more than just a sample of this - which is itself quite a heavy reworking (by whom?) of the Stones' The Last Time - which has the chorus of the Staples Singers version plus verses by the Stones... I think a shared credit would have been a fairer solution, but Klein is Klein, and I doubt if the Stones had much say in whether the Verve got sued, or for how much. I doubt if they could have stopped the lawsuit as they were not at that stage the official copyright holders any more.

the money is not the subject.
The subject is that the stones should play it as OPENER for the next commemorative show. So many people think that the Verve made it. I spend all my time claiming this is a great Glimmer Twin stuff.

"we know it's a bit late but we hope you don't mind if we stay"

The Stones put BS on the PA playlist for BTB tour so The Verve got some performance royalties at least.

I'm a lawyer and I use to deal with entertainment law. The Stones were perfectly entitled to claim their copyright over the song. They just got what It's owed to them.

This was adjudicated in the Stones' favor and they are not a charitable organization. It's all about the money honey.