I have a live version of Brian playing slide on What a Shame from 1965 Ready Steady Go. The stones also did Down the Road Apiece. I got it from a website which I will find if anyone is interested. It's a four disk of all live recordings from 1964-67. That might be the song you are thinking of. Very raw but awesome.

i agree with the guy (mathjis) who said jones was pretty mediocre

jaysus a few mere years later there was duane allman playing slide out of this universe compared to jones



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-28 01:24 by pinkfloydthebarber.

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pinkfloydthebarber
i agree with the guy (mathjis) who said jones was pretty mediocre

jaysus a few mere years later there was duane allman playing slide out of this universe compared to jones

By today's standards Brian would be considered mediocre. You must take the time in context. Musicianship soared in the 70's. In the 60's everyone was learning, it was all new. Brian had major potential that was never realised. He still was an excellant harpists. No one can say his harp playing from 63-65 was mediocre. Guitar? I still say listen to his guitar on Bright Lights Big City. He did a better job on the song than Keith. His forte was he knew exactly what to lay down on a track to elevate it from less than mediocre to sometimes brilliant. If the stones stuck with the Jimmy Reed style which they couldn't of course, he would have ran neck and neck with Keith on the guitar. Brian will always be a victim of circumstance. We'll never know. He pretty much gave up as early as 1965. Pete Townsend summed him up best. "The way he fit in and the way he didn't." I think given the right circumstances he could have been known as the best all around musician the world had ever known. Just my opinion. He certainly would have been better if the stones got along better and he avoided the drugs and alcohol. He had no chance. As soon as Andrew showed up it was over for Brian. He sliced his own throat. He hired Andrew before the others even knew.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-28 03:23 by ovalvox.

I will also quote Bill Wyman. "He was probably a better natural musician than the rest of us put together." Bill didn't think he was mediocre. Again just major potential never realised.

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pinkfloydthebarber
i agree with the guy (mathjis) who said jones was pretty mediocre

jaysus a few mere years later there was duane allman playing slide out of this universe compared to jones

There came better slide players along the way. True. The question is who could compete with Brian on slide in England back in 62-64?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-28 03:34 by tonterapi.

Here are the four CD's I mentioned earlier. I highly recommend them. The stones live. Just google them and you can find them.

The original Rolling Stones live anthology
Volume 1: On the BBC & telly 1964-65
Volume 2: Storming the colonies 1964-66
Volume 3: Storming the empire 1965-66
Volume 4: L'Olympia Paris 1965-67

Most of these most people have heard. Volume 1 has 6 live Ready Steady Go tunes that I never heard until I purchased these disks.

Around and Around
If You Need Me
What a Shame
Down the Road Apiece
Play With Fire
I'm Moving On

By today's standards Brian would be considered mediocre. You must take the time in context.

- yeah you're right

how popular even was slide guitar in 1962 in england? i know elsewhere guys were doing it, in the USA, black guys, missiisppi fred mcdowell, muddy waters, skip james, son house, hound dog taylor etc and these guys definitely influenced the budding Brit players

was jones like about the first white guy to play slide electric guitar in England ?

i have to figure he was one of the first

was Alexis Korner? i remember reading about a Brit named Tony McPhee who played blues slide in England in this period, and jeremy spencer (fleetwood mac) who was obvioulsy influenced greatly by elmore james, was too. there had to be others

at any rate slide guitar has certainly played an important part in the story of british blues.

Mediocre? Screw you. If the blues is about feeling, Brian had no peer. He was an artist, not a guitar player. Others caught up to him and blazed past him technically, but not emotionally. A fellow Piscean, and friend, George Harrison, achieved some very expressive slide guitar after Brian had left the planet. That's why people can't forget Brian Jones. No Expectations comes on the radio and you think, "My god, what achingly beautiful slide guitar. Who is that?"

People still claim that Brian did the arpeggio-theme on Tell Me? I'm pretty sure years ago we came to the conclusion that it was played by Keith. It definitely sounds like Keith.

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DandelionPowderman
People still claim that Brian did the arpeggio-theme on Tell Me? I'm pretty sure years ago we came to the conclusion that it was played by Keith. It definitely sounds like Keith.

Keith plays the 12 string acoustic. He wrote the song with it. Again look at the stones miming to it on Red Skeleton. Brian is playing the electric 6 string part. Keith never did arpeggio. Brian did on If You Need Me and Time Is On My Side. They didn't overdub on early recordings because they only had a two track recorder. The second track was saved for vocals. Brian is the lead guitarists on Tell Me. There is no question. He could certainly handle the part. It makes the whole song. Brian always elevated each song. Look at the Last Time. Take his guitar out and you had Keith strumming three easy open chords. The song would have never been a hit.

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ovalvox

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DandelionPowderman
People still claim that Brian did the arpeggio-theme on Tell Me? I'm pretty sure years ago we came to the conclusion that it was played by Keith. It definitely sounds like Keith.

Keith plays the 12 string acoustic. He wrote the song with it. Again look at the stones miming to it on Red Skeleton. Brian is playing the electric 6 string part. Keith never did arpeggio. Brian did on If You Need Me and Time Is On My Side. They didn't overdub on early recordings because they only had a two track recorder. The second track was saved for vocals. Brian is the lead guitarists on Tell Me. There is no question. He could certainly handle the part. It makes the whole song. Brian always elevated each song. Look at the Last Time. Take his guitar out and you had Keith strumming three easy open chords. The song would have never been a hit.

Whoa! Breathe for a second here

All I'm saying is that it was discussed here years ago, and the conclusion was that Brian probably isn't on Tell Me at all.

Of course, anybody (including Keith, who does lots of arpeggios on other tracks, btw) could have played this.

On The Last Time, Keith also did the solo (as well as the strumming ). Just a minor detail.

I probably love Brian just as much as you do, but that wasn't the point here.

BTW, the arpeggio here is different than the standard three or four note-stuff you mention in the other songs. It is also less structured. THAT leads me to believe it's Keith, not Brian.

OK it was discussed years ago. That doesn't mean Brian didn't play on it. There is a book coming out in September called Rolling Stones gear or something like that advertised on amazon. Suppossedly it is indepth on who played what and where. Maybe that will shed some light. It sounds like Brian's Gretsch to me. I know there were tracks Brian didn't play on. Empty Heart for example. Probably Heart of Stone as well. And a lot later on after he fell apart. It's like Brian being credited in some sources as playing lead on Confessin the Blues when you can clearly hear his Gretsch as the rythmn guitar. Especially live in those old BBC recordings. His Gretsch had a very distinctive sound to it. Like Rickenbackers. That's what I base my opinion on. I've been playing guitar for 20 plus years. Well not lately. I blew out my ears and have major hearing loss now. But I've listened very closely to the songs to try and figure who played what. Not saying I'm an expert. I know Brian was pretty good at not turning up at times and that didn't t stop the stones but I have to think that Brian played lead on Tell Me. Keith was more uptempo with his leads.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-28 17:06 by ovalvox.

Here is another lead I think Brian played in the studio that Keith always played live. Off the Hook. It starts with a Jimmy Reed like intro. Brian playing high notes. Keith low. Keith then goes into the bass note riff and Brian the chords. The lead breaks are Brian playing slide with his half slide so he could still Use his baby finger to fret the note in the chord. There are pics of Brian using this half slide on their first American tour. Of course the question would be why did he never play it live? The studio version does not sound like something Keith would play. And Keith playing it live does not sound anything like the studio version. I've played Off the Hook for years with my half slide and it sounds similar to the studio version. The TAMI show is more proof. Once Keith breaks off the bass riff and plays the lead the song loses it's character until Keith starts back in with bass notes. The studio Brian breaks from the chords to play a single string slide. Keith continues with the bass note riff throughout the song. I might be wrong but some things just make more sense.

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ovalvox
Here is another lead I think Brian played in the studio that Keith always played live. Off the Hook. It starts with a Jimmy Reed like intro. Brian playing high notes. Keith low. Keith then goes into the bass note riff and Brian the chords. The lead breaks are Brian playing slide with his half slide so he could still Use his baby finger to fret the note in the chord. There are pics of Brian using this half slide on their first American tour. Of course the question would be why did he never play it live? The studio version does not sound like something Keith would play. And Keith playing it live does not sound anything like the studio version. I've played Off the Hook for years with my half slide and it sounds similar to the studio version. The TAMI show is more proof. Once Keith breaks off the bass riff and plays the lead the song loses it's character until Keith starts back in with bass notes. The studio Brian breaks from the chords to play a single string slide. Keith continues with the bass note riff throughout the song. I might be wrong but some things just make more sense.

I'm not convinced. Yep, I've heard Brians "weaving" with Keith on the Confessing The Blues-intro, as well as other licks from him. However, there are very few of them. And Keith played a lot of slower lead-stuff as well: The Singer Not The Song, Good Times, Bad Times, Under The Boardwalk etc.)

Judging that crappy recording on the first album by sound alone can be deceiving. They could have swapped guitars or whatever. More important is the fact that Brian very rarely played any lead without playing slide, imo.

The Off The Hook-intro on the Charlie Is My Darling live vinyl release has some great weaving by Brian and Keith, though

Not sure if that's Keith playing the 12 string acoustic lead on Boardwalk. Sounds more like it could be Brian. Same with Congratulations. And they weaved on Bright Lights, Honey What's Wrong, Honest I Do, Little by Little, Confessin, Mercy Mercy, Spider and the Fly just to name a few. Even subtle weaving. Around and Around, Down the Road Apiece, What a Shame, I Can't be Satisfied. Not in the Jimmy Reed style but definite two guitar interplay.

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ovalvox

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BJPortugal

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NICOS
Who is playing solo on this one? I think I know who´s playing solo from ´67 and on but before that

Play it loud.............

Well, it must be Keith... but this cover is great... Love it!

Sorry but this Brian playing. Want proof? Saturday club. They play It's Over Now. Mick States "while Brian changes guitars." Brian switches from hIs Vox to his Gretsch. He spends part of the song adjusting the volume. And his Gretsch had an unmistakeable sound. Keith never played that style. Brian plays the same way on the first version of Time On My Side.

Sure, he plays on the live version of If You Need Me from the June 6, 1964 Saturday Club, but for live gigs he also played guitar on songs he wasn't even present in studio for the recording of, such as Satisfaction. On the live version of If You Need Me you can clearly hear two guitars intermeshing,





but for the Chess studio version you can only hear one guitar--Keith's--and most sources list Brian as having played tambourine rather than guitar on the track, as he did on a few Stones studio recordings in the mid-60s.

Recording date: June 1964 Recording location: Chess Studios, Chicago, USA
Producer: Andrew Oldham Engineer: Ron Malo
Performed onstage: 1962, 1964

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead vocal: Mick Jagger
Background vocal: Keith Richards
Organ: Ian Stewart
Tambourine: Brian Jones


If you need me, why don't you call me?
Said if you need me, why don't you call me?
Don't wait too long, when things go wrong
I'll be there, yeah, where I belong

If Brian wasn't present during satisfaction who laid down the harmonica part? On the first version? The harmonica he is seen playing on Shindig in 1965. Along with acoustic guitar? Not all sources people read are accurate. I trust Bill Wyman. He lists Brian as being on the recording of Satisfaction. In his second book. The acoustic guitar is mixed so low that it must have been Brian. Andrew liked to mix Brian low. Even Keith complained that Brian's riff in Cloud was mixed low. By 1965 the stones were overdubbing to a certain extent. It could easily have been Keith on acoustic and fuzzbox electric with Brian on harp that was later removed or re-did.

Forgot to add that the stones mimed on shindig to pre-recorded tracks at RCA studios the day before to sound live.

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ovalvox
Forgot to add that the stones mimed on shindig to pre-recorded tracks at RCA studios the day before to sound live.

Yes, Brian played on that backing track, where instead of acoustic guitar Brian played one his Gibson Firebirds. There was a thread here on this a while back, and this came up. It was when they recorded the official version of Satisfaction in Los Angeles and Brian went MIA for a couple of days, so they recorded without him. American studios had more recording tracks on studio production consoles than their British counterparts of the time, so Mick would have dubbed in harmonica and Keith acoustic guitar. I'll try and dig up the source info.

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stonesnow

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ovalvox

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BJPortugal

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NICOS
Who is playing solo on this one? I think I know who´s playing solo from ´67 and on but before that

Play it loud.............

Well, it must be Keith... but this cover is great... Love it!

Sorry but this Brian playing. Want proof? Saturday club. They play It's Over Now. Mick States "while Brian changes guitars." Brian switches from hIs Vox to his Gretsch. He spends part of the song adjusting the volume. And his Gretsch had an unmistakeable sound. Keith never played that style. Brian plays the same way on the first version of Time On My Side.

Sure, he plays on the live version of If You Need Me from the June 6, 1964 Saturday Club, but for live gigs he also played guitar on songs he wasn't even present in studio for the recording of, such as Satisfaction. On the live version of If You Need Me you can clearly hear two guitars intermeshing,





but for the Chess studio version you can only hear one guitar--Keith's--and most sources list Brian as having played tambourine rather than guitar on the track, as he did on a few Stones studio recordings in the mid-60s.

Recording date: June 1964 Recording location: Chess Studios, Chicago, USA
Producer: Andrew Oldham Engineer: Ron Malo
Performed onstage: 1962, 1964

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead vocal: Mick Jagger
Background vocal: Keith Richards
Organ: Ian Stewart
Tambourine: Brian Jones


If you need me, why don't you call me?
Said if you need me, why don't you call me?
Don't wait too long, when things go wrong
I'll be there, yeah, where I belong

Forget that lineup.. there are two guitars on If You Need Me...Listen carefully...

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BJPortugal

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stonesnow

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ovalvox

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BJPortugal

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NICOS
Who is playing solo on this one? I think I know who´s playing solo from ´67 and on but before that

Play it loud.............

Well, it must be Keith... but this cover is great... Love it!

Sorry but this Brian playing. Want proof? Saturday club. They play It's Over Now. Mick States "while Brian changes guitars." Brian switches from hIs Vox to his Gretsch. He spends part of the song adjusting the volume. And his Gretsch had an unmistakeable sound. Keith never played that style. Brian plays the same way on the first version of Time On My Side.

Sure, he plays on the live version of If You Need Me from the June 6, 1964 Saturday Club, but for live gigs he also played guitar on songs he wasn't even present in studio for the recording of, such as Satisfaction. On the live version of If You Need Me you can clearly hear two guitars intermeshing,





but for the Chess studio version you can only hear one guitar--Keith's--and most sources list Brian as having played tambourine rather than guitar on the track, as he did on a few Stones studio recordings in the mid-60s.

Recording date: June 1964 Recording location: Chess Studios, Chicago, USA
Producer: Andrew Oldham Engineer: Ron Malo
Performed onstage: 1962, 1964

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead vocal: Mick Jagger
Background vocal: Keith Richards
Organ: Ian Stewart
Tambourine: Brian Jones


If you need me, why don't you call me?
Said if you need me, why don't you call me?
Don't wait too long, when things go wrong
I'll be there, yeah, where I belong

Forget that lineup.. there are two guitars on If You Need Me...Listen carefully...

Yes, on the live version, but not on the studio album. There's only one. And there are several other instances where Brian plays the tambourine.

The Rolling Stones 12x5 [wiki]
Mick Jagger – lead vocals, harmonica, and percussion
Keith Richards – acoustic and electric guitar, and backing vocals
Brian Jones – electric and acoustic guitar, harmonica, tambourine and backing vocals
Charlie Watts – drums and tambourine
Bill Wyman – bass guitar and backing vocals


Released - 1964, on London/Decca Records (now ABKCO Records). Produced by Andrew Loog Oldham. [Keno]

Personnel:

Mick Jagger - Lead Vocals; Harmonica.
Brian Jones - Lead, Rhythm and Slide Guitars; Harmonica; Piano; Backing Vocals.
Keith Richards - Lead and Rhythm Guitars; Backing Vocals.
Charlie Watts - Drums.
Bill Wyman - Bass; Backing Vocals.

Plus: Ian Stewart - Keyboards

Keno's site has Brian playing organ on If You Need Me, but with still one--and only one--electric guitar, played by Keith.

Recorded June 10 & 11, 1964. Released in the UK on the EP Five By Five in 1964; US on 12x5 in 1964.
Lead Vocal & Tambourine: Mick Jagger Guitar & Backing Vocal: Keith Richards Organ: Brian Jones Drums: Charlie Watts Bass: Bill Wyman

IF YOU NEED ME
(Bateman/Pickett)

Perhaps you could locate one source that claims there are 2 guitars on the studio track? Because I've been listening carefully to the song most every day for the last year, and I still hear only one.

That's Keith strumming and Brian playing barre chords picking each note individually on his Gretsch. I have two BBC versions. The same thing Brian plays in the studio. His Gretsch is unmistakable. Keith' s Harmony did not have that deep low thick sound.

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ovalvox
That's Keith strumming and Brian playing barre chords picking each note individually on his Gretsch. I have two BBC versions. The same thing Brian plays in the studio. His Gretsch is unmistakable. Keith' s Harmony did not have that deep low thick sound.

All I'm asking for is one source that has 2 guitars listed on the song.

Well, my first source are my ears
But, on Zentgraf appears...
Line-up ‘If You Need Me’: MJ (voc, tamb)/KR (gtr, bvoc)/BJ (gtr)/BW (bass)/
CW (dr)/STU (org)

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BJPortugal
Well, my first source are my ears
But, on Zentgraf appears...
Line-up ‘If You Need Me’: MJ (voc, tamb)/KR (gtr, bvoc)/BJ (gtr)/BW (bass)/
CW (dr)/STU (org)

Ah, Nico's site, well alright then, you've named a source--and a good one to be sure--but I only hear 1 guitar there, and therefore 1 is all I hear.... Funny though that Nico's post above wonders who is playing on it? Is Nico Zentgraf the same Nico as who posts here on IORR?

There is only one guitar studio. Brian's. Just like there is only one guitar on Mona. Brian's. Stu probably played the organ. Keith was to much into Chuck Berry. That's what he loved to play. Still the best Chuck Berry ever played. Brian loved more of the murky stuff. I don't t have concrete proof. I do have a source that lists Brian as the lead on Time is on my side but that doesn't mean he did. We all know it was Keith. I'm surprised there are no records of every recording. I also have a few sources listing Keith as lead guitar on I wanna be your man. We all know it was Brian. Sources can be and have been wrong.

Nico listed two guitars because he doesn't know either. We're all using our ears. Just not enough concrete proof. Bill Wyman should do a sessionography. He has the best memory of the early days.

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stonesnow

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BJPortugal
Well, my first source are my ears
But, on Zentgraf appears...
Line-up ‘If You Need Me’: MJ (voc, tamb)/KR (gtr, bvoc)/BJ (gtr)/BW (bass)/
CW (dr)/STU (org)

Ah, Nico's site, well alright then, you've named a source--and a good one to be sure--but I only hear 1 guitar there, and therefore 1 is all I hear.... Funny though that Nico's post above wonders who is playing on it? Is Nico Zentgraf the same Nico as who posts here on IORR?

I dont no

I am listening one more time with my headphones, and i swear that i ear a little rhythm guitar, pretty audible at 0:10...

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ovalvox
There is only one guitar studio. Brian's. Just like there is only one guitar on Mona. Brian's. Stu probably played the organ. Keith was to much into Chuck Berry. That's what he loved to play. Still the best Chuck Berry ever played. Brian loved more of the murky stuff. I don't t have concrete proof. I do have a source that lists Brian as the lead on Time is on my side but that doesn't mean he did. We all know it was Keith. I'm surprised there are no records of every recording. I also have a few sources listing Keith as lead guitar on I wanna be your man. We all know it was Brian. Sources can be and have been wrong.

Well if we agree that there is one guitar on the studio track then I would say it would have to be Keith based on, well, what else would he be playing? Even at that early stage Brian was the multi-instrumentalist in the group, credited on the album with piano/keyboards, harmonica, percussion, and guitar, virtually a one-man band unto himself even then, whereas Keith is always listed as just playing guitar.

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stonesnow

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ovalvox

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BJPortugal

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NICOS
Who is playing solo on this one? I think I know who´s playing solo from ´67 and on but before that

Play it loud.............

Well, it must be Keith... but this cover is great... Love it!

Sorry but this Brian playing. Want proof? Saturday club. They play It's Over Now. Mick States "while Brian changes guitars." Brian switches from hIs Vox to his Gretsch. He spends part of the song adjusting the volume. And his Gretsch had an unmistakeable sound. Keith never played that style. Brian plays the same way on the first version of Time On My Side.

Sure, he plays on the live version of If You Need Me from the June 6, 1964 Saturday Club, but for live gigs he also played guitar on songs he wasn't even present in studio for the recording of, such as Satisfaction. On the live version of If You Need Me you can clearly hear two guitars intermeshing,





but for the Chess studio version you can only hear one guitar--Keith's--and most sources list Brian as having played tambourine rather than guitar on the track, as he did on a few Stones studio recordings in the mid-60s.

Recording date: June 1964 Recording location: Chess Studios, Chicago, USA
Producer: Andrew Oldham Engineer: Ron Malo
Performed onstage: 1962, 1964

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead vocal: Mick Jagger
Background vocal: Keith Richards
Organ: Ian Stewart
Tambourine: Brian Jones


If you need me, why don't you call me?
Said if you need me, why don't you call me?
Don't wait too long, when things go wrong
I'll be there, yeah, where I belong

And the guitar i ear... is doing precisely the same as the live version... is very low, but is there.