As many know, from 2002 until the death of Ray Manzarek in 2013, he and Robby Krieger formed a group called The Doors of the 21st Century, later Riders On The Storm, and finally Manzarek-Krieger, in which a revolving door of lead vocalists sang the songs of The Doors, along with them, a bassist (originally Angelo Barbera, later Phil Chen) and Robby Krieger's drummer Ty Dennis, who took the seat over from Stewart Copeland of The Police, who was in turn called in to take over from the absent John Densmore, who vehemently objected to the point that he sued over the use of The Doors in any way, shape or form for this band, a battle in which he ultimately won. Shortly before the death of Ray, he published a book, The Doors Unhinged, about the trial. This is an examination of that book.

For all those who love the book and agree with John's view of the case, I understand why you feel the way you do, but the fact is you only see what John wants you to see. True, Ray did have a tendency to appear to distort the image of The Doors, but this was all done from man's natural tendency to romanticize the past and forget the ugly things, as well as a loving tribute to Jim from the one in the band who knew him best, all harmless and perfectly innocent. John, on the other hand, is viciously retaliating at the fact that Ray was the de facto keeper of The Doors by rewriting history to suit him and only him, though definitely confused with a sense of integrity. And fans will eat it up because they're the some mouthbreathers who think Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons are absolute money-grubbing whores. And this happens because people have a very narrow-minded, singular and ridiculously dogmatic view of what it means to sell out, believing that songs like My Generation should never be used for advertising, even if the people who wrote those songs agree to it, and that ad campaigns, for the most part, don't cheapen the song or make it worthless. So while John and Ray made amends, it's clear that it doesn't really mean that much, as John still has a giant chip on his shoulder, and is now foisting his own revisionist history on the world.

According to John, Ray and Robby were greedy for money, knew that by cashing in on The Doors' name and using Jim Morrison's image, they could sell big arenas and make massive amounts of cash, in spite of clearly violating what Jim would have wanted. They also were desperate to sell out by wanting Break On Through used for a Cadillac commercial, and were angry when John vetoed it. They countersued to spite him and the claim "You're not allowing us to make money here." During the trial, John was subject to character assassination by the lawyers, at Ray and Robby's urging, calling him an Al Qaeda supporter ("If you Google me, you'll find me listed with them."), Ray made clearly false statements on the witness stand concerning the history of the group, the Miami incident was somehow brought up to reflect on John, Jim's family spoke eloquently about how this would not be what he wanted, and Stewart Copeland, the first drummer with Ray and Robby, exposed lies, broken promises and mistreatment. Through dogged determination and a zeal for justice, John won the day.

Now for the examination. We are supposed to take John's word about the trial, as the files have been sealed. But how can we automatically believe what he has to say? Throughout the book, he keeps summoning the spirit of Jim and talking how "he's my soul brother and I know how he'd feel," especially bringing up the famous Buick incident to justify his beliefs. But, according to John's 1990 book Riders On The Storm, he and Jim were not very close, and he in fact had some degree of resentment for him, but more so for Ray and the fact that he had known Jim the longest. John talks about D21C as a selling out of The Doors' values and bringing lasting shame. However, much like Ray and Robby did, he had no problem doing the Other Voices and Full Circle albums after Jim's death in Paris. He also was perfectly happy to do the Stoned Immaculate album and VH1 Storytellers show as The Doors and didn't consider it shameful at all. John states he wouldn't be caught dead joining Ray and Robby with a "Jimitator" onstage, but he says he would gladly have done it if Eddie Vedder had been chosen to sing. I personally love Eddie Vedder, despite all the teasing he's received over the years, but his nasally delivery isn't very well suited for Jim's music, and those who sang with Ray and Robby (Ian Astbury, Brett Scallions, Milijenko Matevic, and someone from a tribute band) were not slavishly recreating the Lizard King in any way shape or form. Astbury couldn't help looking a bit like Jim might have at 45 and having cleaned up his act, but he didn't deliberately move to sound like him or appropriate the stage actions Jim was known for. John states that D21C was misleading to the fans. COME ON! Everyone who paid to see a D21C show knew this wasn't really The Doors, that Jim wouldn't be onstage, and John wouldn't be behind the drums. They came simply because they wanted to hear the music of The Doors played by people from the actual band for modern audiences, as it would beat the living hell out of any tribute band you could find at your nearest club. Saying that these people were misled is an insult to everyone's intelligence. And for all his talk of exploiting Jim's image, keep in mind, John's book has a keyhole focused over Jim, and many photos of Jim in the pictures section. THIS is misleading, as it implies it's another book about the history of The Doors in general, or about Jim in particular, even those who see the subtitle "Jim Morrison's Legacy Goes On Trial." John uses the Buick incident to say that Jim would never have approved the Cadillac deal. However, the simple fact is that no one knows what would've happened if Jim had not died in Paris, not even Ray, Robby and John. All that could be determined is that they would've toured behind L.A. Woman and done another album in the same vein, but beyond that, it's a mystery, so who knows what Jim would've thought. And for his talk about the Cadillac deal, John has violated his own standard, as he allowed Riders On The Storm to be used in an ad for Pirelli Tires in the UK, then excuses it by saying "I heard Jim's voice in my ears afterwards, and I gave the money to charity."

As for Ray and Robby's alleged treatment of John, here's the thing: Robby has explained that the Cadillac commercial never meant that much to him and Ray, and moved on quite easily. It was also never their idea to countersue John, explaining that "We had the worst lawyers in the world. They kept insisting that if we countersued, John would drop the case. Ray and I reluctantly went along." Also, it's common for lawyers to coach their clients, not the other way around. Plus, Ray and Robby were busily on the road at this time (not at big arenas with huge limo service like John states, but rather venues of no more than 5000 people and the occasional massive amphitheater), so we can't know if they had time to personally go on the witness stand. I've Googled John and Al Qaeda, and the only links showing that all date from the interviews he gave for the book, not at the time of the trial as he alleges. Also, this behavior does not sound like anything Ray and Robby would do, especially blatantly lie about the history of the band on the witness stand. Ray was definitely guilty of unintentionally gilding the past with rose-colored glasses, but it was done through his own genuine memory of events. But to absolutely state things he knew to be false? Please. It's clear that John is simply engaging in a tit-for-tat for Ray referring to him as "the band's resident whiner" in his own 1998 book. It's also clear that John co-opted Jim's family and Stewart Copeland to suit his needs and manipulate the jury. Jim's family, the people JIM WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH AND EVEN TOLD THE PRESS WERE DEAD, supposedly know better about what Jim would have wanted than the band. Copeland also testified to things he couldn't possibly have witnessed, as he was hired as a session drummer and nothing more, and it's clear that John used his resentment for Ray and Robby continuing with their tour with Ty Dennis when Copeland broke his wrist in a bike accident. According to Copeland, there was a memo that he wrote to Ray and Robby, talking about this band was a travesty and should not go forward in this style, and that Ray and Robby either ignored it or angrily shouted him down. We don't know that this memo actually exists or, if it does, if it was actually written at that time and not simply fabricated to suit John's agenda, again because the files and evidence are under seal.

One last note, throughout the book, John often makes anti-corporate stands, the need to fulfill the ethos of the '60s, environmental causes, income inequality, etc., and also name drops many celebrities. I am a center-left individual who believes in many of the same things (except for his support for the Occupy movement as a way to achieve equality), but it was tiresome to listen to this over and over. Basically, he is everything Bono has unfairly been accused of being, and it was clear he's doing this to help manipulate the reader to have more sympathy for his "plight." Not to mention, John attacked Ray for his long nostalgic pining and urging for the ideals of the '60s to finally be realized in full.

Lest this sound like I'm trashing John or have no sympathy for going through with the trial or standing up like this, let me assure you that this is not the case. I know he honestly believed that this was the right thing to do, and I admire that he stuck the course. I also don't hate him at all, and I know he still always thinks of Ray and Robby as his musical brothers. But when you have glaring credibility issues like this, I simply cannot ignore it. I'm writing this because in every interview since, no one remotely questions him saying "can you prove it? Is that really what happened?" and so on. And since Ray's death, he is now the lead spokesman for The Doors, and his truth is now becoming THE truth.

other voices and full circle were not only owed to the record company per contract but other voices was started while jim was still alive. the other instances of doing one off performances and projects they were just that. they were one time things the band wanted to do

Toxic. did you personally know Jim and the other original members of The Doors?

I did not claim to personally know the members of The Doors or those around them. But I've done exhaustive research about them, much as I have done with just about every major artist that has impacted the world since the beginning of the 20th century. And through comparing various different materials, and being able to determine the veracity of those, I've been able to come to very solid conclusions about them. For instance, it doesn't take a genius to know that Albert Goldman's The Lives of John Lennon or Tim Riley's recent book about him are absolutely unscrupulous, risible and malevolent trash, or that Stephen Davis' bibliography, with the exception of the autobiographies he helped write, are simply trash in which he does nothing more than show off his hateful opinions. My point being, I've been able to determine through these books, countless interviews and essays who Jim, Ray, Robby and John were and are. And John's recent book simply does not come off as very truthful.

Also, L.A. Woman was originally The Doors' final album for Elektra. Elektra renewed their contract to get Other Voices and Full Circle after Jim's death in Paris.

Toxic, I haven't read John's book, but pretty much agree with everything you brought up. I always felt that John was being a bit hypocritical for the reasons you posted. Today it seems like he is trying to come across like it's not the Doors without Jim, but clearly he had no problem in 1971-73 recording and touring without Jim and calling it the Doors. He had no problem doing the VH1 show in 2000 and it being called simply the Doors. It seems like if it's something he wants to do, he has no problem with it being identified as being the Doors, but if he is the hold out, then he feels this name cannot be used.

I saw Robby and Ray 6-7 times including that 2002 performance with Copeland in Fontana, CA. I recall that when they announced that 2002 show for the 100th anniversary of Harley that they said John was sitting out because of tinitus and was welcome to rejoin at any time. Now it seems this may not have been the truth, but it's weird that in 2000 John had no problem using the Doors name and 2 years later he wants to stop the others from using it without him. He seems to go both ways with this. I have seen his comments about if Eddie Vedder was willing to to it, then he was in.

I do know that their manager Jeff Jampol had hoped that John would come around and agree to do a handful of performances with Ray and Robbie in iconic venues like the Hollywood Bowl, but that never happened. I find it strange also that after Ray's death, there was talk of Robbie and John performing together in tribute to Ray with what have been Ray's birthday in February 2014 being used as a possible day for it, but nothing more ever was said about that.

John has been very inconsistent throughout his life. In his first book, when he mentions Jim's call from Paris about how it wasn't what he thought it would be, and that he was starting to get the urge to tour L.A. Woman and do another record, he writes that he simply didn't want Jim to return from Paris, and that doing another record just like L.A. Woman would be boring. He also simply seems to take positions simply to pour venom at Ray. For example, John has often vouched for Oliver Stone's hatchet job of a film, simply stating that Ray was being insubordinate and wanted to dominate it. Stone also stated the same, that 'he just ranted and raved at me for 3 hours. He's a raging egomaniac." (LOL irony) But of course, Ray was angry because Stone was utterly disregarding anything he told him and wildly distorting the truth. The one who knew Jim the best, whoever that was, would always react in that fashion.

I have several bootlegs of Ray and Robby from 2002 onwards. At each of them, I'm impressed with them, particularly how respectful they were to Jim's memory. The closest to the misleading that John talks about is when they did several late night TV shows and were introduced as simply The Doors, without the rest of the band name. But what are your thoughts of the shows you attended? Did you feel that it was tarnishing the memory of what The Doors did in their original lifespan? Were they playing big arenas and getting star treatment and big money, like John alleges? Also, what do you think about the planned album that John stopped, that would've been D21C doing lyrics by the likes of Jim Carroll, John Doe, Michael McClure, Henry Rollins and so on?

Robby announced his autobiography back in 2010, but no real news has been heard of it since. I look forward to what he has to say whenever it comes out, since it should be a nice balance between Ray's occasional rose-colored romanticizing and John's raving hatred. Plus, it now has an ending, with Ray's death and his rekindling things with John.

To be brief, I did know Jim Morrison and he could be very up and down depending
on how much he'd had to drink. Some of the comments he made about his family
from time to time had to be taken with a grain of salt. As far as his estate
is concerned, my distinct impression is that the family have handled it incredibly fairly and kept in mind at all times what Jim would have wanted.

Re John and Robbie, as members of The Doors they each certainly have every right to their own opinions.

I don't see why you feel compelled to post all this on a Rolling Stones site.

No more from me on this topic.

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Toxic34
I did not claim to personally know the members of The Doors or those around them. But I've done exhaustive research about them, much as I have done with just about every major artist that has impacted the world since the beginning of the 20th century. And through comparing various different materials, and being able to determine the veracity of those, I've been able to come to very solid conclusions about them. For instance, it doesn't take a genius to know that Albert Goldman's The Lives of John Lennon or Tim Riley's recent book about him are absolutely unscrupulous, risible and malevolent trash, or that Stephen Davis' bibliography, with the exception of the autobiographies he helped write, are simply trash in which he does nothing more than show off his hateful opinions. My point being, I've been able to determine through these books, countless interviews and essays who Jim, Ray, Robby and John were and are. And John's recent book simply does not come off as very truthful.

Also, L.A. Woman was originally The Doors' final album for Elektra. Elektra renewed their contract to get Other Voices and Full Circle after Jim's death in Paris.

but elektra had to think jim would be on it right? he died a mere 2 months or so before it was turned over to the label so it had to almost be done when he passed away.

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Halup
I saw Robby and Ray 6-7 times including that 2002 performance with Copeland in Fontana, CA. I recall that when they announced that 2002 show for the 100th anniversary of Harley that they said John was sitting out because of tinitus and was welcome to rejoin at any time.

I was at the Fontana performance too. I think it was 30 years, to the day, after their last performance at the Hollywood Bowl (minus Jim).
The souvenir program listed them as the Doors, Copeland's drum kit had the classic Doors logo on it, and L.A. rock radio DJ Jim Ladd introduced them with "Ladies and gentleman, from Los Angeles, the Doors."
I don't think anyone in the crowd thought the band had mis-represented themselves, we all knew we were going to hear 2 hours of Doors music played by at least two of the original musicians, and for me that trumped hearing a tribute band.
At some point in the show, Ray said this was not a one-time thing, that this was the Doors for the 21st century. I think they only did a couple more shows before the lawsuit forced them to adjust their name. They toured a bit as The Doors of the 21st Century but that didn't placate enough so then they were D21C (sounds like a rapper name to me) and then used other names that have been mentioned.

The only thing I can remember of John's 1990 book is the bitterness. Oh, and that he buggered off to a room to have a wank.

Ace drummer!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-31 02:54 by His Majesty.

selfish bastard ... he shoulda remained on the stage and put on a full performance for everyone



ROCKMAN

A five knuckle shuffle on The End.

It is that easy: No Doors without Jim Morrison. All reunions were senseless and they did it only for the money. How poor it was to damage a legend for a few bucks.

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HMS
It is that easy: No Doors without Jim Morrison. All reunions were senseless and they did it only for the money. How poor it was to damage a legend for a few bucks.

I saw Ray and Robby twice and I am glad I did. Two excellent musicians with a good singer, performing songs they wrote when they were young. Both concerts were in small venues for reasonable prices, both Ray and Robby played really well. I can't see anything wrong with that. At least I enjoyed it.

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Happy24

I saw Ray and Robby twice and I am glad I did. Two excellent musicians with a good singer, performing songs they wrote when they were young. Both concerts were in small venues for reasonable prices, both Ray and Robby played really well. I can't see anything wrong with that. At least I enjoyed it.

Nothing wrong with it at all.

I think we can all sympathise with the view that it wasn't The Doors though.

I agree -Can you imagine the Four Tops without Levi Stubbs? or even EWF without Maurice White?

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Rockman
selfish bastard ... he shoulda remained on the stage and put on a full performance for everyone

Yeah, as Jim would have...

2 1 2 0

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Happy24

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HMS
It is that easy: No Doors without Jim Morrison. All reunions were senseless and they did it only for the money. How poor it was to damage a legend for a few bucks.

I saw Ray and Robby twice and I am glad I did. Two excellent musicians with a good singer, performing songs they wrote when they were young. Both concerts were in small venues for reasonable prices, both Ray and Robby played really well. I can't see anything wrong with that. At least I enjoyed it.

I don't understand how Ray's and Robbie's band could have damaged the Doors.
During their show they were very respectful of Jim's legacy and made no secret
they were the only original members on the stage. They told many stories - all of
which were more flattering of Jim than the content of Oliver Stone's movie.

It's obvious they're all trying to make money off of Jim Morrison/Doors fame. It's their right, and also their challenge too (to succeed in doing so).

I don't care, either way. I enjoyed 'Light My Fire' and the first album (also later 'LA Woman' I think is a just a cool recording). But, beyond that not a huge fan...but c'mon, why can't they all try to cash in?

They couldn't have found a better singer to do the job, though.

[www.youtube.com]

^^ Ray's digital keyboard is the most offensive thing about that.

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His Majesty
^^ Ray's digital keyboard is the most offensive thing about that.

Agreed.

Really, when you think about it,the personal differences between the members of the Stones over the years pales into insignificance when you read about some of the tantrums as described above and often found in other bands who split up many many years ago.

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DandelionPowderman
They couldn't have found a better singer to do the job, though.

[www.youtube.com]

They recruted a look-alike. That´s really cheap...

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HMS

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DandelionPowderman
They couldn't have found a better singer to do the job, though.

[www.youtube.com]

They recruted a look-alike. That´s really cheap...

umm thats the singer from THE CULT and he looked like that long before he played with the doors

And he's the only one that can SOUND like Jim.

A look-alike? That's a joke. He's my second favourite rock vocalist!

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keefriffhard4life

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HMS

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DandelionPowderman
They couldn't have found a better singer to do the job, though.

[www.youtube.com]

They recruted a look-alike. That´s really cheap...

umm thats the singer from THE CULT and he looked like that long before he played with the doors

Ian Astbury is the guys name and he sure wasn't the worst part of that performance. It is amazing how Jim could make some of those super simple almost amateur Doors songs work so well. He was definitely 51%+ percent of their appeal to me and there is a definite element of sincerity missing in those 21st century performances.

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DandelionPowderman
And he's the only one that can SOUND like Jim.

A look-alike? That's a joke. He's my second favourite rock vocalist!

the guy from bakers pink is working it pretty hard though


[www.youtube.com]

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keefriffhard4life

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DandelionPowderman
And he's the only one that can SOUND like Jim.

A look-alike? That's a joke. He's my second favourite rock vocalist!

the guy from bakers pink is working it pretty hard though


[www.youtube.com]

True. But Astbury was offered Val Kilmer's part in the movie already back then, though. The guy's a Doors fanatic, with some unbelievable pipes.

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DandelionPowderman

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keefriffhard4life

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DandelionPowderman
And he's the only one that can SOUND like Jim.

A look-alike? That's a joke. He's my second favourite rock vocalist!

the guy from bakers pink is working it pretty hard though


[www.youtube.com]

True. But Astbury was offered Val Kilmer's part in the movie already back then, though. The guy's a Doors fanatic, with some unbelievable pipes.

yeah the doors are one of his favorite bands. shame he couldn't stay on as the singer for the rest of the time they toured. i saw them twice before ray passed, a different singer both times and neither was ian