i've been reading about the 58 Gibson Les Paul TV known as Dice:
[www.oldkr.co.uk] and [www.provide.net]
and i dug up some photos that i'm hoping you kind, patient and learned Keith Guitar Experts
might be persuaded to expound on a little, please and thank you very kindly.

the earliest shot of it i've found - if it's indeed the same instrument -
is from Keith's incarnation as a New Barbarian:


- 1979 (probably may 13th - don't know who took it, sorry!)

most of my Barbarians footage is currently out tearing up the peapatch somewhere, but i did check Knebworth,
where he used this guitar instead of a Telecaster for Before They Make Me Run.

here it is again in 81 - i'm still hunting for it in my 81/82 footage, and am having a blast doing it,
but if anyone knows offhand what Keith was using it for on that tour that would be way cool ...


- 1981 (don't know who took it, sorry!)

it turns up next in 89/90, 99 and 2002/03 -
does anyone know if Keith used it for any numbers other than Midnight Rambler on those tours?
and/or whether he's been using it at all on the current tour?


- 1989, by Dimo Safari (courtesy of rs.com)


- june 1999, courtesy of Rini at rs.com


- february 6th 2003, by Art Chevalier (thanks my dear!)

in 95, on the other hand, Keith's got what looks to me like a *pre-58* Les Paul TV - is that right?
i'd love to hear any details anyone knows about this instrument, and what numbers Keith used/uses it for (the first shot looks like SFTD):


- 1995, by Bernd Muller (courtesy of BrownEyedGirll)


- 1995, by Bernd Muller (courtesy of Jaggergrrl)

vast thanks for any insights!



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-28 12:32 by with sssoul.

My dear sssoul: at first I was to say that I didn't thought it was the same guitar what you posted in those pics, but if you look closely at the bridge you'll find it's the same bride in all the instruments, so a)it is the same guitar indeed; or b)changing the bridge is a modification Keith did on all? his Juniors or Specials (I'm always in a mess with the names). Having in mind the bridge on those models can be a pain in the ass when it's time to adjust the intonation properly, both possibilities could be right. Anyway, I tend to think it's the same instrument.

(Of course the one with a single cut it's not)

Keith began to use those beautiful Double cut Specials in 73, if I'm not wrong. He played a dark red finished model, and you can see that in the infamous LA Forum 75 video he uses it for Midnight Rambler (and at least for Ain't Too Proud To Beg, if I'm not wrong). I'd say that in the middle 70s, when Keith switched to Telecasters, he kept these Gibson Specials for Midnight Rambler and the skulls Zemaitis for open tuning songs. In 78, if I recall correct, he used the single-cut Special (for Beast Of Burden??)

Anyway, Mathijs will tell us...

[There'll be no wedding today...]

He also uses it for Out Of Control (at least on the B2B tour, haven't seen footage of it on the BB tour).

Cheers,
Wuudy

thank you kindly, gentlemen!

i was particularly interested in that light-colored buddy known as the TV model -
but since you mention the very pretty dark one, is this here the one you mean?
(and is that also a 58?)


- january 18th 1973 (not sure who took it, sorry!)


- december 23rd 1974 ... Rockman's Avatar Gig :E (courtesy BrownEyedGirll)


- august 2nd 1975 (Chief Moon)


- 1978, by Lynn Goldsmith

meanwhile ...

>> those models can be a pain in the ass when it's time to adjust the intonation properly <<

Bruno (and/or other patient and learned people!), i'd be fascinated if you felt like elaborating on that -
and on what makes these models sweet to play despite the ass-paining bridge.

the old gibsons just happen to be the best sounding rocknroll guitars ever...thats all....KRUNCHHHHH!!!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-18 19:36 by Leonard Keringer.

Yep, that's the dark one. Pretty one!

About the bridge, older Gibsons had only one piece at the bridge who worked as a tailpiece. Later on, I think in 1957, the Les Paul guitars switched to a two-piece bridge: the stopbar and the Tuneomatic. (I recommend you to check the webpage of gibson custom and have a look at the Les Paul reissues of 50's models, as my english is not good enough to explain this more clearly). The Specials and Juniors began being cheaper Les Paul models, so these advanced features were not included in those models, as opposite to the more expensive Les Paul Standard and Custom models.

Anyway, a visit to the webpage of gibson custom is highly recommended to see the evolution of these guitars!!

[There'll be no wedding today...]

About sweet to play...

I never tasted one of those fifties Gibsons, but looking at the price those guitars have, they should be sweet to play for sure!

The Specials and Juniors were equipped with P-90's pickups, which sound somewhat between the fat sounding humbucker pickups (Les Paul Standard) and the thin sounding Fender single coil pickups (Stratocaster). Somewhat like having a mix between the typical Gibson and Fender sounds: ideal for blues based music.

(I must admit I never played a P-90 equipped guitar, but the theory says something like that)

[There'll be no wedding today...]

One piece bridge: [www.gibsoncustom.com]

Modern bridge: [www.gibsoncustom.com]



[There'll be no wedding today...]

way cool, thank you Bruno!

To address the sound of the 50's Specials and Juniors:I was fortunate enough to find a TV yellow '59 Special about 15 years ago for $800(it had new tuners but was otherwise in great shape).Still got it and it sounds so good-lots of bite,beautiful tone on the rhythm pick-up.Consider,too,that Johnny Thunders' signature guitar was a Junior(usually played through two Fender Twins)and no matter what you think of his playing(I happen to love it),he always had a great raunchy sound...and of course he idolized Keith.

I've never played a 50's Special but I own a '78 LP Special Limited Edition.
It has a stop tail piece and tune-o-matic bridge. Very thin (flat) neck and is so easy to play on.
It's a beautiful guitar and the sound of the P9o's is just great - bluesy, not so sharp but typical single coil.

Here's a link to a vintage guitar collector - I guess you'll like it
[www.provide.net]
[www.provide.net]

andrewm, hey I like Johnny Thunders too. saw his last gig before he left us.

>> Here's a link to a vintage guitar collector - I guess you'll like it <<

i do like it! i like it so much i put in my first post on this thread. :E
but it bears repeating, so ... thanks!
and thank all you gentlemen for these further insights on how come these things sound so fine
and what kind of fine they sound - go on go on, i am fascinated. :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-18 22:51 by with sssoul.

kieths aged a bit ehh????

(and what have *you* done in the 30-year span covered by these photos, tat2you?
this thread would really like to stick to the guitars - thanks.)

so about them guitars:
i'm still hunting for that 58 TV model in my 81/82 footage -
i don't see it at Seattle or Hampton ... any clues?

>>i do like it! i like it so much i put in my first post on this thread. :E
but it bears repeating, so ... thanks! <<

oops - sorry sister sssoul, I must have overlooked that.
I had it in my favorite bookmarks folder and maybe I got from you in the first place.
it's a good site tho

It's not the same guitar in all photos. The wear on the finish that's down by the cord input is missing on some...also, there is one photo of a single cutaway model. That's definitely not Dice. Dice is a double cutaway. I'm sure Keith has a ton of these beauties...

lucky man.

>>It's not the same guitar in all photos<<
How can you tell from these pics? (different angle & light)
There could be more wear on the finish after a couple of gigs.

I see 3 guitars;
1. a yellow (TV)LP Junior with tortois pickguard and dogear P90
2. a cherry red LP Junior with black p.g.
3. obviously a single cutaway LP TV Junior

I'm also sure that Keith owned & owns a lot of guitars, but he also sticks to his loved ones.

russr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not the same guitar in all photos. The wear
> on the finish that's down by the cord input is
> missing on some...also, there is one photo of a
> single cutaway model.

I'm not sure if the guitar is the same one, but I wouldn't base on the wear on the finish of a guitar which has toured more than 25 years, neither.

The single cut model wasn't into the discussion, it's pretty obvious it's not the same guitar.



[There'll be no wedding today...]

>> I see 3 guitars <<

right, i'm glad we all agree - anyway there are at least three
(and they're all Les Paul Juniors, except that two of them are called Les Paul TVs).

>> The wear on the finish that's down by the cord input is missing on some <<

now that you mention it ... i see that on all the photos of the 58 TV-yellow one (ie, the double-cutaway model).

>> The single cut model wasn't into the discussion, it's pretty obvious it's not the same guitar. <<

thank you Bruno - yes, even i could tell that's not the same guitar,
even without consulting that fine vintage-guitar site we keep referring to. :E
if i'm understanding things that one is a pre-58 Les Paul TV, and the double-cutaways are from 58.

>>it's a good site tho <<
yes it is - and here's the link again just in case anyone missed it the first two times :E
[www.provide.net]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-05 08:25 by with sssoul.

After our lovely Ms. Sssoul's post I had a little research to clarify my mind about the Junior/Special issues. It seems that pre-58 models were singlecut, whereas 58 onwards were double cut. About Junior/Special: if the model in case has only one (bridge position) pickup, it's a Junior; if the model has two pickups, it's the Special.

About the TV denomination: as far as I know, TV is only a finish colour, somewhat yellowish to stand out in the B&W TVs of the era.

BTW, I myself prefer the red finish.

Where is Mathijs to Shine A Light On Us??

[There'll be no wedding today...]

smile: that's what i thought, Bruno -
thanks for the confirmation. i feel vindicated. :E

here's your prize - a better shot of that very nice dark 58-or-later LP Jr
(isn't the pickguard tortoiseshell? a bit hard to tell - but mighty pretty!):


- november 1973, courtesy of Nico/Rocks Off



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-19 19:28 by with sssoul.

In general: until '58 all juniors were single cut. The "junior" name only applies to the cherry and sunburst juniors. The "limed yellow" or "TV Yellow" junior's are called "Les Paul TV". General idea is that the "TV" name was there as the guitar would have a better appearence on TV, but the "T" more stands for Telecaster -Gibson was trying to copy the Fender Broadcaster and Telecaster colour. In 1958 the double cut appeared, but still single cuts were produced until very early 1960. The double cut sometimes is refered to as "Les Paul Junior SG". The Special is a unior with two pickups, and binding on the neck. These guitars are great, but sound totally diferent than Juniors.

Keith's cherry red junior is a '57, and he used it from 1973 until 1978, when it was stolen. He replaced it with a 1959 Les Paul TV (nicknamed Dice by a journalist, not Keith), which he used ever since. In the beginning of the 1981 tour he played both the TV and a sunburst singlecut Junior for songs that have a R&R vibe -Mona, Down the Road Apiece, Going To A Go Go, and also Let's Spend the Night Together and Let Me Go. Half way the tour, he moved to Telecasters all the way. On the 1982 tour, he used the sunburst Junior (double cut) for Beast of Burden in Berlin and Munich.

Nowadays he uses the TV for Midnight Rambler, Out of Control and Going to A Go Go.

Mathijs

Lovin' these guitar classes





ROCKMAN

>> Lovin' these guitar classes <<

me too - thank you kindly, Mathijs!
so that is indeed the same 58 Les Paul TV all down the line from 79 to the present. nice!

>> In the beginning of the 1981 tour he played both the TV and a sunburst singlecut Junior for songs that have a R&R vibe ...
On the 1982 tour, he used a sunburst Junior (double cut) for Beast of Burden in Berlin and Munich. <<

thanks - i'll be on the lookout for early photos of those sunburst Juniors. i do have these shots of a single-cutaway from 94/95 ...


- 1994 (maybe aug 01), by Matthew Mendelssohn


- 1995, by Bernd Muller (courtesy BrownEyedGirll)

is it just a coincidence that my 94/95 photos feature the singlecut models, or was Voodoo Keith favouring them for some reason?
and Mathijs, do you know what year(s) they're from, and/or when Keith acquired them?
thanks again so much for all this fine education ...
(here's a rerun of the VL shots of that singlecut Les Paul TV, so we don't have to keep going back to page 1 ...)


- 1995, by Bernd Muller (courtesy BrownEyedGirll)


- 1995, by Bernd Muller (courtesy Jaggergrrl)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-23 19:40 by with sssoul.

Yes that's me in '67' (playing in a band at a roller skating rink, lol) Got the guitar and the amp sitting under the Champ, (a Teleno, I think, I've NEVER seen another one!) for $125 from some old cowboy. He didn't (nor did I) know what kind of guitar it was, just knew it was a Gibson. And, that's the question here: What kind of Gibson is it? I've alway's thought it was a TV Special but after this thread I'm not really sure. It's got two P-90's and the Bigsby. It was cherry red with black pickguard. The headstock was the yellow color, and, the bridge (which I still have somewhere) that's on it I've never seen on another LP.

Oh, I sold the guitar for $250 5yrs later so I could buy some fat tires and wheels for a GTO I had. yikes!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-21 04:01 by RankOutsider.

Bob Marley I believe also used a similiar type- I had no idea that Keith waited until the mid seventies to switch to a tele- Thanks for the info!! What was the clear guitar that keith used for the '69 tour?

Talkin bout the....

A Dan Armstrong, I believe the first one he had was the original prototype made by Dan himself.

>> I had no idea that Keith waited until the mid seventies to switch to a tele <<

well ... 72 isn't quite "mid seventies" ... and he never *totally* switched.
it seems like it was in the late 70s/early 80s that he came closest to having an exclusive relationship with his Telecasters,
but even then he used other guitars as well. always has.

here's a link to a recent discussion of the clear Ampeg Dan Armstrong,
(which contains further links to further recent discussions of it, all very worthwhile!)
[iorr.org]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-21 11:42 by with sssoul.

About Rank Outsider's guitar I'd say it's a Les Paul Special, and the Bigsby could be a modification put by that cowboy. What somewhat shocks me is the yellowish headstock...

BTW, you didn't look like the most dangerous rocker in the world

[There'll be no wedding today...]

>> that scruffy-lookin patch on the body is i guess the dice decal from which the instrument got its nickname, but who knows when that was added. <<

well, that decal is already there in the footage from Philadephia 81 -
i know you were all pining to know. :E
(and thanks, Mathijs, for the hints about where in 81 to look for this instrument!)
(thank you too Wuudy - i haven't watched any B2B in a while, and it's sounding good on Out of Control.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-26 12:30 by with sssoul.