Mick Jagger was a world-famous Lothario figure in the 60s and early 70s, however his lyrics with the Rolling Stones from that period often betray a pronounced misogyny. Most Rolling Stones songs are credited: Jagger/Richards, and in practice Jagger wrote most of the lyrics, and Keith Richards provided the musical basis, with exceptions.

The Last Time
The first Rolling Stones single written by the Jagger/Richards team was 1965’s “The Last Time”, whose lyric is based around an ominous warning from the narrator to a girlfriend. “I’ve told you once and I’ve told you twice”, runs the first line, and the song shows the narrator has grown frustrated with the girls refusal to pay attention to his needs: “You don’t try very hard to please me.” In the final verse, the opening line is reprised, but now followed by the veiled threat: “Someone’ll have to pay the price.”

Play With Fire
The b-side of that single was “Play with Fire”, an uncharacteristic production with arpeggiated guitar and harpsichord, and a coldly menacing lyric from Jagger directed at, apparently, some rich society girl who he advises, “Don’t play with me ‘cos you’re playing with fire.” The Beatles often sang about diamond rings in their early love songs, and here the Stones bring in diamonds, but the tone is rather different: “Now you’ve got your diamonds, and you will have some others, but you’d better watch your step, girl, or start living with your mother.” As in “The Last Time”, the narrative persona in the song has feelings of anger and resentment towards the subject.

Aftermath – Under My Thumb & Stupid Girl
But the 1966 album Aftermath, the first Stones album made up entirely of Jagger/Richards compositions, gives the most clear articulations of Jagger’s stance. “Under My Thumb”draw you right in with its cool, slinky beat, before Jagger sings with relish of how a girl who once pushed him around is now under his thumb: “It’s down to me, the way she talks when she’s spoken to…the way she does just what she’s told.” An outrageous lyric in an insidiously catchy song.

That album also boasts “Stupid Girl”, whose title is a fair clue to the content of the lyrics. Jagger’s disgust is palpable as he pronounces the eponymous character “the worst thing in this world.” “Stupid Girl” is an enduringly popular song title in our age: Garbage, Neil Young, and Pink have all had a go.


Stray Cat Blues & Brown Sugar
The Rolling Stones’ lyrics were no less controversial as the 60s wore on: “Stray Cat Blues” is a paragon of sleaze with Jagger casting himself as the predatory older male inviting a young girl up to his room, and they managed to have a US No.1 hit with a song celebrating a “scarred old slaver” who “whips the women just about midnight.” (“Brown Sugar” being the song in question)


Later Jagger Lyrics – Some Girls & Gunface
In the 70s Jagger kept the macho material coming, but his lyrics now resided somewhere in the region of self-parody: “Some Girls”, from the 1978 album of the same name, being a notable case in point; a catalogue of bad taste observations, sexism, racism, all delivered in a theatrical drawl, a long way from the understated danger of early Rolling Stones records.

Even into the 90s Jagger was writing songs about feelings of hostility towards a woman perceived to have neglected his needs: “Gunface” is a violent fantasy from the point of view of a man wronged by his girl, who has got a gun and intends to use it to put it right: “I thought her everything, I’m gonna teach her how to scream.” The threat of violence towards a cheating woman that is explicit in “Gunface” has its predecessors in the blues music that so influenced the Stones. Robert Johnson and John Lee Hooker, for example, sang lyrics in the same vein.

Mysogyny and the threat to male pride presented by women is one of the threads that run through Mick Jagger’s lyrics. The lyrics often present a protagonist who feels he is taking charge of this situation, whether by keeping his woman “under his thumb”, or by more extreme measures. The woman is seen as the enemy, but usually the protagonist does not admit the possibility of defeat, rather he glories in experiencing his own power over the enemy. The lyrics take the form of a reaffirmation of male dominance against the threat posed by woman, whose salient characteristics in these lyrics is greed, faithlessness and inattentiveness to his needs and desires.

[www.suite101.com]

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It seems Mister Wallace didn't get some of the Stones ' lyrics,what you think ?

You don’t try very hard to please me



I don't see any mysogyny in this sentence .



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-17 21:36 by SwayStones.

Interesting topic, some time ago I even had a full book (though a thin one) about the matter subject in hand, analyzing song by song. I need to find the time to study the article.

"You're obsolete my baby, my poor old-fashioned baby ..."

It was a different world in the 60's and 70's. I would not read too much into the lyrics.

Misogynistic Stones lyrics? Now there's an amazing revelation. Who knew, when Mick disguised it so cleverly, under so many obscure hints.

But the shoe is now on the other foot; listen to Already Over Me.

The line is "I taught her everything" not "I thought her everything" in "GunFace."

I would say that the lyrics to "Run For Your Life" by the Beatles would top any Stones song in the misogynistic category.


Well I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or I won't know where I am

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

Well you know that I'm a wicked guy
And I was born with a jealous mind
And I can't spend my whole life
Trying just to make you toe the line

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

Let this be a sermon
I mean everything I've said
Baby, I'm determined
And I'd rather see you dead

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or you won't know where I am

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl
Na, na, na
Na, na, na
Na, na, na
Na, na, na

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Captain Teague
It was a different world in the 60's and 70's. I would not read too much into the lyrics.

Right, today it is political incorrect.

As a male, and which man isn't a bit of a chauvinist himself, one can view these lyrics with a wink in the eye, while the laugh is at the expense - of course of the women.

Striking example: "Hear him whip the women ..." Jagger cut this verse out a long time ago, when exactly?

And how do the women themselves on this board comment the topic?

Don't forget the great "Out Of Time".

Or "Yesterday's Papers"...

I always thought that Mick's relationship with Chrissie Shrimpton provided the spark for a lot of those 'misogynistic' songs of the time.
Didn't she write a column in a teen mag and go into great detail about their cosy domesticity together.
Apparently Mick thought it was making him seem very uncool, hence the break-up and lots of songs about what a wicked ladies man he actually was...

"I Got Black And Blue From The Rolling Stones And I Love It!"

Mysogyny and the threat to male pride presented by women is one of the threads that run through Mick Jagger’s lyrics.

Mysogyny is too strongly put, as rock&roll is magnification and exaggeration, as I have once read. But I feel that the subject of tension in male/female relationships is a big part of what the Stones are famous and liked for.

Most of those songs are situated just before the relation breaks - or after. And therefore they are not nice portraits of the nicest girl in the world (the table's turning/ now her turn to cry/ I used to love her, but it's all over now). Or they might be versions of Fairy tale charaters - like in Stray Cat Blues where MJ impersonates the wolf and the girl little red riding hood.

how about 'Out Of Time'

thats one isn't it? what a load...

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Elmo Lewis
Don't forget the great "Out Of Time".

scuse me Elmo! we had the same thought...

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lsbz
Mysogyny and the threat to male pride presented by women is one of the threads that run through Mick Jagger’s lyrics.

Mysogyny is too strongly put, as rock&roll is magnification and exaggeration, as I have once read. But I feel that the subject of tension in male/female relationships is a big part of what the Stones are famous and liked for.

Maybe misogyny is really too strong a vocabulary. Mr. Wallace had better titled his article sexism instead, imho.

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dead.flowers

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lsbz
Mysogyny and the threat to male pride presented by women is one of the threads that run through Mick Jagger’s lyrics.

Mysogyny is too strongly put, as rock&roll is magnification and exaggeration, as I have once read. But I feel that the subject of tension in male/female relationships is a big part of what the Stones are famous and liked for.

Maybe misogyny is really too strong a vocabulary. Mr. Wallace had better titled his article sexism instead, imho.

There probably is some hate and fear underlying male/female relationships, but I think that's a natural tension. Something to do with archetypes that will never really understand eachother, and because of that also have a strong fascination for eachother. Two sides of the same coin. It's a most important topic that all the great bands made music about.
As to Chrissie Shrimpton, who has been mentioned as "the spark for a lot of those 'misogynistic' songs of the time" in this thread, strangely enough she is one of the Stones women that I like most.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-17 19:26 by lsbz.

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dead.flowers
Maybe misogyny is really too strong a vocabulary. Mr. Wallace had better titled his article sexism instead, imho.

My thoughts exactly .
I cannot picture Jagger as a misogyst .



To be honest, I never (ever ? ) thought the topic would interest so many of you since IORR is a "men's world "....

If I recall correctly, an article in a famous rock magazine described the Stones are as a "bunch of exting but chauvinistic bastards ? "

Anyway, I've never considered myself as a feminist -let's put it like that -but I must confess some of the Stones ' lyrics sometimes made me feel uncomfortable and I was stucked between my love for the Stones music and the lyrics .

As in Under My Thumb , "the squirming dog who just had her day"
I am not sure of how I interpreted it since I am may be wrong with the translation but obviously ,calling a woman a dog is very despicable imo .
Plus I don't know if ,by " day" Jagger refered to women's periods - I had always thought that Jagger said "dates " instead of "day"

Same with "squirming" .
Does Jagger refer to some "bodily form "of the woman' pleasure if you know what I mean .

When I first discovered the Stones in my early teens -74/75 - I wasn't aware of it,of course since my English was very poor then but mostly because I didn't get all the ins & outs of it .

Although I am sure one can find a sort of "balance" with the opening lyrics <<UMT ,the girl who once had me down >>,like she gets what she deserves .
May be I should check "René 's track talks " I might get some explanations about the song ?



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

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duke richardson

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Elmo Lewis
Don't forget the great "Out Of Time".

scuse me Elmo! we had the same thought...

"No Anchovies, Please"

I did a paper for a Sociology class in college on 'Under My Thumb'. The professor was a young, militant feminist. My position was that 'Under My Thumb' was more of an insecure, braggart kind of song where the singer readily admits that the woman had control. The professor didn't buy it and only wanted to see the lyric as misogynistic. The arc of Jagger's songwriting, and Keith's too, reveal some boys who are having trouble with girls, and they don't always win.

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SwayStones
... calling a woman a dog is very despicable imo .

Can't you see that as exaggeration and irony?! To me, that's very obvious; almost symbolic, like a cartoon. It may still not be nice, but art is not only about the nice things in life.

In a Rolling Stone interview from '78, Jonathan Cott asked Mick about misogyny and quoted many of the songs mentioned here. Mick said, I didn't write all those lines, you know.

nobody likes to be hated on...male or female...even if its in a song thats not meant serious.
'Under My Thumb' seems to be the one pointed to the most...but 'Brown Sugar' has everything...manages to cover it all, in a great song. Like Under My Thumb.
then listen to 'Ruby Tuesday'...admiring someone for their aloofness, independence..and willingness to 'cash your dreams'. good stuff.

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lsbz

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SwayStones
... calling a woman a dog is very despicable imo .

Can't you see that as exaggeration and irony?! To me, that's very obvious; almost symbolic, like a cartoon. It may still not be nice, but art is not only about the nice things in life.

No, I can't .

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1sbz
Men will never understand women. And in my experience, if you loved them you will never really get over them;

I don't want to sound offensive but obviously, you are on the wrong "track"



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

The guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. If he had named Yesterday's Papers or Back Street Girl he would've had a point, but his actual examples aren't misogynistic at all.

It would be interesting to note that of the 3 artists who covered "Stupid Girl", 2 are female singers.

Whichever one of the Glimmer Twins is doing the writing, Stones songs have never gone in for sentimental lovey-dovey lyrics - I'd summarise their viewpoint as something like "sex is fun, but relationships can be a battleground..." But all their really misogynistic songs date from a particular period in the mid-60s - maybe from a particular relationship.

Mick and Keith don't write cliche lyrics - they write from personal experience, and in the mid-60s a lot of that personal experience was based on meeting hysterical fans on the one hand and a set of rich upper-class young women "slumming" with the newly-fashionable pop stars on the other. From the songs, it doesn't sound as if they found either group of girls very attractive, and they use a lot of songs to sneer at them (Stupid Girl, Play With Fire, Nineteenth Nervous Breakdown, Miss Amanda Jones and so on). There's an underlying anger there, just as there is in a song like Jarvis Cocker's "Common People" - the feeling that such girls are playing with the writer while secretly thinking that he's beneath them and his feelings don't matter.

But then some of the songs get spitefully personal about a particular (unidentified) girl. Here it's the man who is doing the using - bullying and controlling the girl (Under My Thumb); treating her as a throwaway object (Out Of Time, Yesterday's Papers); feeling that she's OK to sleep with but not good enough to introduce to his society friends (Backstreet Girl). There's all sorts of conflict there - personal conflict and (this being Britain) class conflict too - and some very nasty things get said. It's like a personal quarrel that has found its way into a batch of songs, and there's a very definite sweet-and-sour flavour to them - musically beautiful but lyrically ugly. And the Stones are brilliant writers, so it's very clever spitefulness, too. On this evidence I wouldn't have wanted to be the girlfriend of whoever wrote it.

Later on, the sexist attitude remains but that particular personal spitefulness seems to have gone. By the way, all the people who give Brown Sugar as an example of pure misogyny should pay a bit more attention - yes, the scarred old slaver is a pretty nasty character, but surely part of the point of the song is that the lady of the house is having a lot of fun with the houseboy too!

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SwayStones
As in Under My Thumb , "the squirming dog who just had her day"
I am not sure of how I interpreted it since I am may be wrong with the translation but obviously ,calling a woman a dog is very despicable imo .
Plus I don't know if ,by " day" Jagger refered to women's periods - I had always thought that Jagger said "dates " instead of "day"

It is "day" and refers to the old saying: "Every dog has his day".

That saying dates back to at least 1545 and was used by Shakespeare!
[stuntdog.wordpress.com]

Greenlady, nice analysis!

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SwayStones

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1sbz
Men will never understand women. And in my experience, if you loved them you will never really get over them;

I don't want to sound offensive but obviously, you are on the wrong "track"

I don't know what you mean with that. It's a quote from an old thread, and a bit out of context here. The whole dialog was:

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1sbz

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guitarbastard
what the @#$%& is going on in her brains in heart.

Men will never understand women. And in my experience, if you loved them you will never really get over them; sometimes not even if you only had sex for a couple of times. If you had a serious relationship for some years it is even worse. But they will become a very valuable part of your perception of life.

I think there's nothing wrong with that.

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SwayStones

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lsbz

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SwayStones
... calling a woman a dog is very despicable imo .

Can't you see that as exaggeration and irony?! To me, that's very obvious; almost symbolic, like a cartoon. It may still not be nice, but art is not only about the nice things in life.

No, I can't .

Generally, if you can't see the irony in lyrics of bands like the Rolling Stones and the Velvet Underground, I think that you miss much of their intention. Then they become too heavy and you might take offense. They could be crossing lines from some women's point of view; I don't know, but the artistic mechanism of layers of dark and light will always stay the same.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-18 10:28 by lsbz.