I always hear talk about how he didn't receive writing credit on songs like Sway, Moonlight Mile, and Time waits for no one. Does anyone have any quotes/evidence of this, or is it just speculation?
I get the impression that a song like sway was completely written by jagger and all taylor did was add a solo (albeit an incredible one). but adding guitar work to a song is a nice thing, but its got nothing to do with writing credit. so did he just add really great guitar parts to these songs, and people mistake that as not getting writing credit? any ideas?

Marianne Faitfull did get here credits after 20 years or so, so he will get his credits soon.

__________________________

while the level of Taylor's contribution to Sway and others may be disputable, one things for sure: Keith got more writing credit than he derserved.

Keith had little or nothing to do with lots of credited songs such as:

Sway
Bitch
Moonlight Mile
100 Years Ago
Heartbreaker
Hide Your Love
Winter
It's Only Rock n' Roll (album version at least)
Time Waits For No One
Till The Next Goodbye
Short & Curlies
Fingerprint File
Ney Negrita
Melody
Fool To Cry
When The Whip Comes Down
Dance
Emotional Rescue
Undercover Of The Night
...and many more.

Jagger even wrote the famous Brown Sugar riff that is so associated with Keef.

Not knocking him btw, just stating the truth.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-15 09:45 by lettingitbleed.

...Tell me when ya come down from the trip, dude...

don't believe me ay? You think Dance and Negrita were his riffs and not Rons?

Why do you think Mick always played Whip on guitar? Because it's his riff.

Keith wasn't even present for Moolight Mile or Heartbreaker...etc...reasons go on and on...

Brown Sugar, come on!

And (quoting):

"Sway
Bitch
Moonlight Mile
Heartbreaker
Hide Your Love
It's Only Rock n' Roll (album version at least)
Time Waits For No One
Till The Next Goodbye
Short & Curlies
Fingerprint File
Ney Negrita" ... Taylor's songs... ??

What happened to his song writing capacity after 1974, then?

Baboon Bro

>Brown Sugar, come on! <

Yes, it's documented. I have no source to cite. Just have once read it, and it was even from Richards himself if I am not wrong.

Not just the riff but everything, save from the introduction (that's from KR).

What riff... the middle part riff?
Can anyone else explain how it happened, when Jagger 'wrote' this riff?

"(I've written riffs that people assume are Keith's.) Brown Sugar. That was the first one I did. I've done many since."
- Mick Jagger, 1994

[www.timeisonourside.com]

Mick writing BS is pretty well documented in the books of the period. I can't remember if it is in True Adventures or STP off the top of my head.

Jagger wrote Brown Sugar while shooting Ned Kelly Down Under in 1969. It was allegedly his first attempt at writing in open tuning. Keith said in 2002 that he added "fairy dust" to Mick's song just as he did with Don't Stop. Consider the fact that without Keith, A Bigger Bang would have sounded like the Alfie soundtrack or Goddess in the Doorway. The Marianne Faithfull story gets blown way out of proportion. Her version of Sister Morphine credited the song as Jagger/Richards/Faithfull in 1969. That's how its registered with ABKCO. When Sticky Fingers was released in 1971, her name did not appear on the sleeve. CBS perpetuated this mistake when they reissued the album in 1987. It is claimed Keith personally saw that her name was restored when Virgin reissued the album in 1994. An omission was corrected. This is not the same thing as Mick Taylor or Bill Wyman believing their ideas were used by Jagger/Richards without giving them a share of the royalties. Fans of Taylor, Wyman, Brian Jones, Ry Cooder, and Gram Parsons love to speculate that Jagger and Richards stole completed compositions from these guys. Of course, if this were so attorneys would have produced demos proving the composition belonged to someone else and restitution would have been made. The ugly truth is Jagger and Richards borrowed ideas from others or accepted contributions from others without feeling the need to share credit and royalties. This has gradually changed over the years as Ron Wood, Pierre deBeuport, Chuck Leavell, and Steve Jordan could attest. My only question is where is the proof that Keith had nothing to do with the laundry list of songs provided above or should one not question when a spurious claim is made that something is the truth?

Although we see some sophisticated and witty, knowledgeable words
from Mr Dijon here; I'd say this is a neverending discussion.

We 'all' know Jagger wrote Brown Sugar while doing Ned Kelly.
But when you hear the different versions & mixes of the song,
you notice on every single one of them the interplay between Jagger
/& Richards... Keef drivin', forsin' the beat on & on & Jagger pumpin'
the vocal part, the melody part in the same direction.
Separating this is just senseless.
All people who mean they can sort these things out should take a deep breath imho.
Then maybe a nice long walk to get some fresh air?

We still have consider that the songs wouldn't be that same hadn't Keith actually played on the record - Brown Sugar for example. Mick never could copy Keith's phrasing - his playing is much more "precise" in a way, I think. At least if he plays concentrated and not while singing. Hey Negrita, Dance, Look What The Cat Dragged In, Fingerprint File (the funky bass) etc. are pure Ronnie to me, those songs with a feeling like Time Waits For No One or also Moonlight Mile are characteristic for Mick Taylor, I think - also fits his personality in a way, I think. He always seemed a bit melancholic to me - the guy who is in the bad boys band but seems like the incredibly sensitive guy with a sense for nice melodics and who never really fit the Stones as a persona. Jagger just knows how he has to sing those songs to make them appear authentic, but basically such songs are from Mick T. I think.


Belgrade-Bucharest-Budapest-Brno

there is a difference between arranging the songs and writing them. Adding parts in the studio may be arranging or it may be writing. If there is a demo with the song more or less in its final form, then studio contributions will not change the writing credits.
But we don't know much about the Stones demos because the vault is so tightly protected. There is lots of educated guesses including some above that seem persuasive but that is not the same as absolute proof.
Going off of their quotes adds some info but as we know Mick and Keith stories change over time so this is not proof either

lettingitbleed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> while the level of Taylor's contribution to Sway
> and others may be disputable, one things for sure:
> Keith got more writing credit than he derserved.
>
> Keith had little or nothing to do with lots of
> credited songs such as:
>
> Sway
> Bitch
> Moonlight Mile
> Heartbreaker
> Hide Your Love
> It's Only Rock n' Roll (album version at least)
> Time Waits For No One
> Till The Next Goodbye
> Short & Curlies
> Fingerprint File
> Ney Negrita
> Melody
> Fool To Cry
> When The Whip Comes Down
> Dance
> Emotional Rescue
> ...and many more.
>
> Jagger even wrote the famous Brown Sugar riff that
> is so associated with Keef.
>
> Not knocking him btw, just stating the truth.



Well lets state the truth in a slightly less smug manner shall we. There are loads of songs that Keith instigated, but Mick always gets a credit too. Perhaps a more interesting thing would be to address the lyrics that Mick has always had the credit for but didnt (completely) write, such as Gimme Shelter. Lets never forget that the two tour de force stones albums - Let it bleed and Exile - were basically Keiths.

That list of songs keith didn't write on seems pretty accurate, the only one i'm not sure about is bitch. he must've had something to do with it, its just got that keith sounds to it.

and anyways, giving both jagger/richards credit is something that plenty of songwriters do ala lennon/mccartney, even though they practically wrote all they're songs seperately after 1965.

Quite frankly....who cares!

jagger/richards are creditied in the same fashion as lennon/mccartney...There is a reason they are called the glimmer twins!

If anyone else should have been creditied ( KD lang certainly was ) it is up to that person to stop bitching about it and provide proof. Hire a lawyer if it's that big a deal.

There are surely many Jagger/Taylor songs that were credited Jagger/Richards.

It must piss Taylor off to realize in hind sight he had to fight for credit instead of just trusting in those he was playing with to give him his fair cut.

If Richards gets credit for Moonlight Mile which he admits having NOTHING to do with it, then surely the pie is not cut fairly. How many songs came to be with Charlie behind the kit helping mold the idea into a great song yet gets no credit cause the initial riff was not his. Many songs are created by the band. And as Ronnie finally realized the initial riff means credit.

It's pretty sad really. All band members should get an equal slice IMO.

Well People,

Mick Taylor called it "Lazy Arrogance" refering to the way Jagger/Richards
treated anyone who had a hand in putting together the songs in studio.

Taylor was told, many times in the early years that he would get "credit"
for his "contributions" and "surprise" the albums came up: Jagger/Richards
with the exception of: Vent. Blues from Exile.

Taylor stated: Richards wasn't even in the studio for: Sway, Moonlight Mile,
Winter, someone made the crack that Keith has backing vocals on Sway, that was
after the fact, added later...

This was a MAJOR reason why Taylor left!! although he didn't say it publically,
it got leaked by a friend, Taylor was pissed when it happened, and their
relationship cooled quickly after.

Lorenz - That's TAYLOR playing Bass on Fingerprint File!!!

Taylor has talked about "Lawyers" over the years but has stayed "friendly"
with the Glimmers and doesn't want to kill his friendship with them if a suit
was filed. He would still like to sit-in with the Stones!! and has said it many
times!!

I still think that's a big reason he isn't invited back in the Stones world,
(Past Writing Credits)
Jagger is worried about how much money he could lose, Keith
probably doesn't care as much. I'm sure if Jagger wanted to include Taylor in a
gig or two it would happen.

MLC

yes, thank you MCDDTLC. Quite true.

Thanks MCDDTLC, guess I was mislead cause Ronnie played bass at the live versions (if I'm not mistaken again).

Odd-beat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baboon Bro
>
> >Brown Sugar, come on! <
>
> Yes, it's documented. I have no source to cite.
> Just have once read it, and it was even from
> Richards himself if I am not wrong.
>
> Not just the riff but everything, save from the
> introduction (that's from KR).

Strangely, the intro is not in KR's "channel" on Sticky Fingers. He plays on one channel on Side A and the other channel on Side B (except when he is mono) of Sticky Fingers. Of course, who plays it does not tell you who wrote it, but I think Baboon Bro later seems to be referring to who plays it.



Rocky Dijon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Consider the fact
> that without Keith, A Bigger Bang would have
> sounded like the Alfie soundtrack or Goddess in
> the Doorway.

There are some fans who think SOL sounds like "an Alfie soundtrack song".

> Fans of Taylor, Wyman,
> Brian Jones, Ry Cooder, and Gram Parsons love to
> speculate that Jagger and Richards stole completed
> compositions from these guys. Of course, if this
> were so attorneys would have produced demos
> proving the composition belonged to someone else
> and restitution would have been made.

I do not know that Taylor ever claimed he gave a "completed composition". The "completed composition" issue is a red herring. I presume Taylor, as much as anyone on this board, knows a lead part is not a basis for a songwriting credit (though on TWFNO he might get an argument from me). The issue is whether, as a collaborator he developed the melody, etc. that is a sound basis for claiming a credit. I think he was particularly miffed that he was told he would receive a credit and then did not get one.

Taylor has not hired lawyers to go after other people in other cases either. A few live albums have been released, reportedly without his permission, of shows he has done with different bands. I had heard that he sued the Stones for WOAF playing credit, and, while he reportedly received money and credit, I am not aware of an actual lawsuit.

This gives some of his perspective, I think: "The whole experience made me more cynical. One of the reasons I haven't bothered to make records of my own is because I don't get paid for some of the biggest selling records of all time. Frankly, I was ripped off. You get cynical about the music business and it stops you playing.- Mick Taylor 1997"

Baboon Bro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But when you hear the different versions & mixes
> of the song,
> you notice on every single one of them the
> interplay between Jagger
> /& Richards...

When I listen to the studio version, I hear KR's guitar somewhat buried with an acoustic guitar during the intro and solo, and MT clearly in the other channel.



Markdog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Richards gets credit for Moonlight Mile which
> he admits having NOTHING to do with it, then
> surely the pie is not cut fairly.

The only thing in Sticky Fingers I don't have anything to do with is Moonlight Mile, 'cause I wasn't there when they did it. It was great to hear that because I was very out of it by the end of the album and it was like listening, really listening. It was really nice. - Keith Richards, 1971

I thought I wasn't on Moonlight Mile but the last riff everybody gets into playing is a riff I'd been playing on earlier tapes before I dropped out. - Keith Richards, 1971

Incidentally, that riff does not sound like the basis for a songwriting credit.

Bear in mind though, the entire music industry is full of the ripped off and the rippers. Even the ones who make millions complain about getting ripped off. Fairness seems to be a stranger to the music industry.

The question is not what Keith did not write. Per MJ and KR agreement, if either one of them writes a song, the other gets credit.
So if Keith did not have anything to do with it, the supposition would be that MJ wrote by himself (and vice versa). Tapes of the early takes would show how much of song was written before MT saw it for the first time.
My opinion is that MT probably should have gotten credit on some others besides Ventilator. But I would guess that this would not nearly as many on the list above.
I have not seen where MT thought that there was an agreement in the studio to give him credit and then when the album came out he was surprised to see no credit. I think it was more like he was not assertive in claiming credit in the studio and hoped that MJ would be gracious enough to list him. Not the way to go about it. And you would think after the first "misunderstanding" he would have been more clear about it.

Mick T in' Guitare et claviers-no 198, july/august 1998 gave a straight answer to a journalist asking him what songs he'd really written (apart from Ventilator Blues) : Time Waits For No One, Sway, CYHMK, Moonlight Mile and Tops. That's it, and obviously it's entirely credible.

Oh so what..Keith wrote Gimme Shelter, lock, stock and barrell...its only rock'n'roll...

JR

Tap me on the shoulder one day and tell me I can be in the Rolling Stones and Mick and Keith could deny me writing credit all they wanted.

The guy never did appreciate that he won the damn lottery.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-12 05:06 by Send It To me.

...and what song did Mick have nothing to do with?

Ruby Tuesday
Angie
Happy
etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-12 05:07 by Send It To me.

I interviewed Mick Taylor back in the late 1990's and he did tell me that he wrote Moonlight Mile.

+ Gimme Shelter,Love Is Strong,Almost Hear You Sigh can be considered non-Jagger.I don't buy,for a minute, that Richards was not involved with Bitch.I always thought that he was a part of the creation of It's Only Rock 'N' Roll (But I Like It) at Ron Wood's house and that it was Wyman who was not there for that one.Who knows about the origins of 'Til The Next Goodbye?There are also interviews with Richards talking about the creation of Dance where he claims he saw it as an instrumental so,therefore,he must have been involved to some extent.KR adds some guitar work to Whip as well.Who's to say that he's not the one who came up with those parts?Jagger 's guitar playing on tracks like When The Whip Comes Down and Respectable probably had alot to do with tryin for their own answer to the punk sound of the time.I am also convinced that Brown Sugar would not be Brown Sugar as we know it without Richards' opening part (the best part) of the song.There is no way that Jagger is completely responsible for that.What we hear at the beginning is way too complex for his guitar skills,especially at the time.Taylor did not write the opening guitar intro to Can't You Hear Me Knocking.That's well documented.Richards is the first one to admit to not being involved in a song.Check the liner notes from Jump Back for his comments about Undercover Of The Night and Emotional Rescue.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-12 05:35 by Theif in the Night.

Theif in the Night Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't buy,for
> a minute, that Richards was not involved with
> Bitch.

... or like Bitch that Charlie and Bobby (Keys) and me played.- Mick Jagger, 1971


Instantly (when Keith walked in the studio) it went from not very good, feels weird, to BAM and there it is. Instantly changed gears, which impressed the shit out of me. - Andy Johns