I don't like opening up new threads, especially for so many times discussed topics, but sorry, some ideas occurred to me while writing and reading Rene's "Let's Spend The Night Together" thread. Just to keep that discussion focused there, I decided to continue my ramblings here.

I wrote there:

I will also note that one feature of "Let's Spend The Night Together" in the history of their output is that it being "innocent" also holds true in the sense that it the last single the band sounds like 'lucky happy amateurs' in studio (something surely to do with Oldham?). The song sounds production and instrumental-wise, even compared to its contemporaries, pretty amateurish and sloppy. It is the plain joy, drive and will that bring the song home and still makes it a great listening. They dare to be so 'naive' in experiments and sounds. And they didn't mind their sloppiness or mistakes to be heard.

By contrast, when they started doing "We Love You" and SATANIC MAJESTIES (and got rid of ALO) their approach seemed to go much more serious and they started to pay much more attention to the way the records actually sound. I think that new drive for artistic perfection (including instrumental details) was one of the reasons why they had so much trouble in making SATANIC MAJESTIES. "Jumpin' Jack Flash" and BEGGARS BANQUET sound so mature, perfect in sounds and in details. There the sort of amateurish drive of, say, "Let's Spend The Night Together" is replaced by sheer (but inspirational) professionalism.

If we know think this route of professionalism and artistic seriousness they continued, LET IT BLEED was, while not probably as cohesive statement as BEGGARS BANQUET, artistically speaking more ambitious and even more perfect in nuances. But what goes for sheer professionalism, it is all highlighted in STICKY FINGERS. It sounds so mature, so professional. It is a statement as how technically great and perfect in any given style this band can be. Every little detail is simply spot on musically. No sloppiness or wild guesses. Everything in control. They sound so serious. Just think of "Moonlight Mile" or "Can't You Hear Me Knocking?"

But, as we know, EXILE ON MAIN STREET is a different business. The band, instead of being serious, perfect or relevant, sounds so relaxed and playful. The whole atmosphere is like "we don't need to prove anything to anyone, or try desperately to follow trends, but we just play what we know and what we have learned, and you know, what we like”.. The band doesn't sound like trying to reach some deeper artistic goal, a'la SATANIC MAJESTIES, or a relevance, a'la BEGGARS, or LET IT BLEED, or professionality and 'we master every style and genre'' like STICKY FINGERS, but just trusts naturally whatever is coming inside of them, and relying on those instincts. They don't need to prove anything. And that makes the album so strong.

In EXILE ON MAIN STREET they empty all their pockets they have learned in their ten years of existence. It's all there. The motto is: that is what we know.

But what actually that is? People are many times seeing EXILE as an exercise in Americana, that is, giving their versions of different authentic American forms of music (blues, c&w, gospel, soul, rock&roll, etc.), and in a way that is true (and like some people are giving, for example, Gram Parsons, a huge role there.) But I think most of that they already have perfected in STICKY FINGERS. I mean, is there formally thinking more perfect c&w song than "Dead Flowers", and you don’t get more down to blues as with “You Gotta Move”, or black gospel-based soul than in “I Got The Blues”? In EXILE, by contrast, they give to the whole business their own stamp. They sound more original.

But then again, what is that?

Let me quote myself again from Rene's thread,

By the way... When I now think of it, the idea of using bridge to build up the tension that way is quite similar to "Rocks Off" that lyrically as well is a cousin to the theme of "Let's Spend The Together" that is, as argued here, a cousin to "Satisfaction" (also musically). And by the way, "Rocks Off" is surprisingly melodic for being such a strong rocker. Maybe there is more nostalgical roots in "Rocks Off" that we can hear from the outset... there is a hidden air bridge from Nellcote sessions to their 'classic' pop era....

This I hope gives a clue what I am after here. After the years of perfecting their sound and getting more and more professional, in EXILE they seemingly had enough of that. My claim is that the leading idea of EXILE ON MAIN STREET was to recreate the atmosphere of their old - pre SATANIC MJESTIES/BEGGARS days, that is, Andrew Loog Oldham days. I think this the secret in its holistic, almost chaotic, sometimes muddy, many times non-intuitive or non-easy reachable sound. They went back to basics to understand the dramatic impression a song, and left all the artistic or musical or instrumental ‘snobbism’ out. Just DA sound - and whatever, and no matter which way - contributes best to it, will fit. Allow teh mistakes, allow the errors, allow whatever oddness if it fits the whole. It’s just the wholeness.. Points to ALO here! Just think of "The Last Time", "Have You Seen Your Mother, Bay", "Get Off of My Cloud", etc. Just put “Rocks Off”, “Soul Survivor” or whatever next to them and you will hear the similarity.

I think it has most to do with attitude and creating an atmosphere. That makes EXILE, and that’s something they originally had in their breakthrough records and what made them originally so phenomenal. I think that is the secret of EXILE and distinguishes it from the other ‘golden era’ albums. It guides us back to pre-BEGGARS days. There is more BETWEEN THE BUTTONS in it than in any of the other three.

One of the distinguished features of the sound of EXILE is Mick and Keith's co-singing. Surely, Parsons might have a role in musing Keith way to sing, but damn that was the crucial feature in Stones sound already in 1965-67! I think there are two BUTTONS era songs I think crucial here: besides mentioned "The Night" just listen "Connection" - they sound young, and no stylishly perfect yet, but damn the way the guys sing together and how the song rolls on is pure EXILE! For some reason, in EXILE they got back that easiness and lightness in their approach that makes them roll so 'easily' or 'naturally'. You didn't hear that in their masterpieces from 1968 to 1971 that were more - and don't get me wrong - this is all reletive! - uptight.

So, let me repeat, and pardon boring you with this long post, what makes EXILE different is that The Stones re-discovered their natural wild, energetic rock and roll attitude they had during ALO days, and by then they didn't need anymore to worry about the means: they were masters in anything they decided to do. If STICKY FINGERS was their 'formal' master thesis, EXILE was their dissertation. With EXILE Mick and Keith showed that they really trust own instincts, and they don’t need to copy anyone to sound original. One feature of that was rediscovering their ‘old’ rebellious and instinctive attitude, that didn’t give a shit about making possible mistakes if the feel is right. That’s the elixir which gives EXILE its eternal freshness and vitality. EXILE ON MAIN STREET is the culmination of their first ten years of existence, and I hope I have give some light to one side that is not so much talked about.

Sorry that this post is so incoherent, and surely a hell to follow. If a discussion arises, I try to be more clear.

To all who followed:

- Doxa



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2012-05-07 16:26 by Doxa.

Doxa...I'm sure this is all very interesting, but, it's tooooooooo long. I couldn't be arsed to read throguh it all!

Doxa, you should be hired to do the liner notes for 'Fifty Licks'.

Not so sure, Doxa. Seems to me what they perfected during the ALO years was a kind of pop. Exile is light years away from that, both in sound and intent.

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crumbling_mice
Doxa...I'm sure this is all very interesting, but, it's tooooooooo long. I couldn't be arsed to read throguh it all!

I know I know...

But my point is: the distinctive feature of EXILE is that the professionalism, seriousness and stylish perfection nailed in STICKY FINGERS is married with the relaxed, pragmatic, energetic and playful attitude to music that is typical to their pre-BEGGARS recordings. Actually EXILE is a masterful combination of those two different phases of them coming together.

- Doxa

I did actually go back and read it in it's entirity and you made some good points and I agree with most of what you say....Exile is a true Stones mash up!

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Doxa

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crumbling_mice
Doxa...I'm sure this is all very interesting, but, it's tooooooooo long. I couldn't be arsed to read throguh it all!

I know I know...

But my point is: the distinctive feature of EXILE is that the professionalism, seriousness and stylish perfection nailed in STICKY FINGERS is married with the relaxed, pragmatic, energetic and playful attitude to music that is typical to their pre-BEGGARS recordings. Actually EXILE is a masterful combination of those two different phases of them coming together.

- Doxa

I think the correlation is too loose to jump on that conclusion, although you might have some valid points there:

- The seriousness of I Am Waiting is loosened up in Sweet Black Angel
- The homeage-attitude in High And Dry is getting purely tounge-in-cheek on Loving Cup

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71Tele
Not so sure, Doxa. Seems to me what they perfected during the ALO years was a kind of pop. Exile is light years away from that, both in sound and intent.

I think I know what you mean but I try to talk outside the box of pop/blues&rock/whatever style and more that of attitude and approach to music. I think EXILE is artistically speaking their most their 'deepest' album ever; they are there following their muse stronger and deeper and without any compromises than ever. But the way I see it is that the very attitude they have to accomplish that is that Mick and Keith somehow rediscoverd their original 'naive' approach to music. They didn't care a shit what anyone thought, or is it relevant or not. In their 'pop days', they were really open-minded, and ready to try whatever crazy idea. Yeah, they were following the trends for sure but they had very relaxed attitude towards professionalism and perfection.

By contrast, BEGGARS BANQUET, LET IT BLEED and STICKY FINGERS are masterpieces by nailing the form. They are so damn focused, so relevant. They are full of rock anthems, strongest individual songs ever relaesed by anyone. All or most of the songs seem to have a point. Like each song being a bullet directed to certain target. And usually hits there. The band is so serious and focused getting the things right. But when things get so serious, there is not much joy in the air. The band sounds wonderful, but it is the discipline achieved by having a gun pointed to your head and demanding to get that right.

But EXILE is something different. For me its musical substance comes from just the pure joy of making music. It's more fun. There is no any targets outside of itself. To me it resembles their early 'pointless' recordings in this sense. It's just their natural charm and intuitions that lead the ship there. But since they are so formally wonderfully equipped them - as players, as style perfectionists, as writers - they use that as their material. In 1966 they had very different kind equipment to (and you can call that 'pop' if you like).

So in the end I hear the similar musical 'cheerful' or 'easy-going' atmopshere in EXILE that characterizes their best ALO era songs. Like then they don't worry too much getting it 'right', but just transforming the feeling and approach. That is so Rolling Stones-like, intuitive and natural for them, but, funnily if we listen BEGGGARS, BLEED or FINGERS you actually wouldn't find it there. In a way they wanted to be more precise and set on target.

My picture is that by STICKY FINGERS, and having so clearly convinced the world of their greatness and ability, Mick and Keith were so sure of their own thing that they had afford to just relax and do what they please. They didn't need to prove anymore anything (especially when The Beatles was no longer around). You can hear that attitude in the songs of EXILE. Those cirmustances gave them a monumental - once in a life time - inspiration, and to sound like... The Rolling Stones.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-05-07 17:55 by Doxa.

Exile was more of an artistic statement about the Stones connection with American roots music, rather than a perfected group of ten or eleven songs, as the previosu few records had been. It was more sprawling, denser, and the album's length allowed for the inclusion of several "minor" songs which helped set the mood and tell the story. I think you are spot-on, except for your point of it being like the pre-Beggars Banquet days is a stretch for me. Seems to me they were trying to make really good pop records before BB, and Exile is a far cry from that.

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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crumbling_mice
Doxa...I'm sure this is all very interesting, but, it's tooooooooo long. I couldn't be arsed to read throguh it all!

I know I know...

But my point is: the distinctive feature of EXILE is that the professionalism, seriousness and stylish perfection nailed in STICKY FINGERS is married with the relaxed, pragmatic, energetic and playful attitude to music that is typical to their pre-BEGGARS recordings. Actually EXILE is a masterful combination of those two different phases of them coming together.

- Doxa

I think the correlation is too loose to jump on that conclusion, although you might have some valid points there:

- The seriousness of I Am Waiting is loosened up in Sweet Black Angel
- The homeage-attitude in High And Dry is getting purely tounge-in-cheek on Loving Cup

Funny though, I was thinking "Sweet Black Angel" as a typical EXILE mixation of those pre and post BEGGARS phases. I see it as a political/social commentary a'la "Street Fighting Man" but made more with AFTERMATH style, that is, not trying to be so serious (that "Street Fighting Man" actually tries to be, as it was intented, as it did, to catch the feeling of political cirmustances of 1968). but "Black Angel" is as politically harmless and cute as the 'the female-hatry' in many AFTERMATH songs. Even though I am not so sure if Angela Davies got that that way...

- Doxa

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71Tele
Exile was more of an artistic statement about the Stones connection with American roots music, rather than a perfected group of ten or eleven songs, as the previosu few records had been. It was more sprawling, denser, and the album's length allowed for the inclusion of several "minor" songs which helped set the mood and tell the story. I think you are spot-on, except for your point of it being like the pre-Beggars Banquet days is a stretch for me. Seems to me they were trying to make really good pop records before BB, and Exile is a far cry from that.

I think what I try to explicate here is the bolded on: not the object (American roots music) but the agent: what exactly is the unique Stones contribution in this connection. I trace that to their revolotionary pre-BEGGARS days. It is something, for example, someone like Gram Parsons never had. That something makes a huge difference. I think in EXILE Mick and Keith believed to their own intuition and strenghts more than they did, for example, in STICKY FINGERS.

I think the opening number of the album "Rocks Off" is a key song here. Yeah, it has some modern groove of "Brown Sugar" in it, and total EXILE instrumental installation, but if look under the surface, the skeleton of the song - how it sructured, the opening riff, the bridge, the theme of it - it surprisingly close to "Let's Spend The Night Together". I think all-over EXILE there are songs that roll so lightly are more close to "Miss Amanda Jones", "Connection" than to dark blues rockers a'la "Bitch" or "Live With me" or "Stray Cat Blues" of recent albums. Just thinking of "All Down The Line", "Soul Survivor", "Happy", etc. I think they found that old 'rock and roll' chuckberry gear that present from the beginning and still very much in their 'pop years' (just listen GOT LIVE IF YOU WANT IT!), but not so much in 1968-71 era (when they foounded more bluesier and heavier approach. Listen for example, Berry numbers of YA-YA'S!)

I think it is this joyful, lighter rock and roll attitude that gives EXILE its specific nature (and rock and roll, of course, is a form of pop music). Not just in rockers but it is also present in other sort of songs. But of course, everything they learned during 1968-71 is also present.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-05-07 18:57 by Doxa.

Very interesting thoughts Doxa. Thank you.

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Doxa
I don't like opening up new threads, especially for so many times discussed topics, but sorry, some ideas occurred to me while writing and reading Rene's "Let's Spend The Night Together" thread. Just to keep that discussion focused there, I decided to continue my ramblings here.

I wrote there:

I will also note that one feature of "Let's Spend The Night Together" in the history of their output is that it being "innocent" also holds true in the sense that it the last single the band sounds like 'lucky happy amateurs' in studio (something surely to do with Oldham?). The song sounds production and instrumental-wise, even compared to its contemporaries, pretty amateurish and sloppy. It is the plain joy, drive and will that bring the song home and still makes it a great listening. They dare to be so 'naive' in experiments and sounds. And they didn't mind their sloppiness or mistakes to be heard.

By contrast, when they started doing "We Love You" and SATANIC MAJESTIES (and got rid of ALO) their approach seemed to go much more serious and they started to pay much more attention to the way the records actually sound. I think that new drive for artistic perfection (including instrumental details) was one of the reasons why they had so much trouble in making SATANIC MAJESTIES. "Jumpin' Jack Flash" and BEGGARS BANQUET sound so mature, perfect in sounds and in details. There the sort of amateurish drive of, say, "Let's Spend The Night Together" is replaced by sheer (but inspirational) professionalism.

If we know think this route of professionalism and artistic seriousness they continued, LET IT BLEED was, while not probably as cohesive statement as BEGGARS BANQUET, artistically speaking more ambitious and even more perfect in nuances. But what goes for sheer professionalism, it is all highlighted in STICKY FINGERS. It sounds so mature, so professional. It is a statement as how technically great and perfect in any given style this band can be. Every little detail is simply spot on musically. No sloppiness or wild guesses. Everything in control. They sound so serious. Just think of "Moonlight Mile" or "Can't You Hear Me Knocking?"

But, as we know, EXILE ON MAIN STREET is a different business. The band, instead of being serious, perfect or relevant, sounds so relaxed and playful. The whole atmosphere is like "we don't need to prove anything to anyone, or try desperately to follow trends, but we just play what we know and what we have learned, and you know, what we like”.. The band doesn't sound like trying to reach some deeper artistic goal, a'la SATANIC MAJESTIES, or a relevance, a'la BEGGARS, or LET IT BLEED, or professionality and 'we master every style and genre'' like STICKY FINGERS, but just trusts naturally whatever is coming inside of them, and relying on those instincts. They don't need to prove anything. And that makes the album so strong.

In EXILE ON MAIN STREET they empty all their pockets they have learned in their ten years of existence. It's all there. The motto is: that is what we know.

But what actually that is? People are many times seeing EXILE as an exercise in Americana, that is, giving their versions of different authentic American forms of music (blues, c&w, gospel, soul, rock&roll, etc.), and in a way that is true (and like some people are giving, for example, Gram Parsons, a huge role there.) But I think most of that they already have perfected in STICKY FINGERS. I mean, is there formally thinking more perfect c&w song than "Dead Flowers", and you don’t get more down to blues as with “You Gotta Move”, or black gospel-based soul than in “I Got The Blues”? In EXILE, by contrast, they give to the whole business their own stamp. They sound more original.

But then again, what is that?

Let me quote myself again from Rene's thread,

By the way... When I now think of it, the idea of using bridge to build up the tension that way is quite similar to "Rocks Off" that lyrically as well is a cousin to the theme of "Let's Spend The Together" that is, as argued here, a cousin to "Satisfaction" (also musically). And by the way, "Rocks Off" is surprisingly melodic for being such a strong rocker. Maybe there is more nostalgical roots in "Rocks Off" that we can hear from the outset... there is a hidden air bridge from Nellcote sessions to their 'classic' pop era....

This I hope gives a clue what I am after here. After the years of perfecting their sound and getting more and more professional, in EXILE they seemingly had enough of that. My claim is that the leading idea of EXILE ON MAIN STREET was to recreate the atmosphere of their old - pre SATANIC MJESTIES/BEGGARS days, that is, Andrew Loog Oldham days. I think this the secret in its holistic, almost chaotic, sometimes muddy, many times non-intuitive or non-easy reachable sound. They went back to basics to understand the dramatic impression a song, and left all the artistic or musical or instrumental ‘snobbism’ out. Just DA sound - and whatever, and no matter which way - contributes best to it, will fit. Allow teh mistakes, allow the errors, allow whatever oddness if it fits the whole. It’s just the wholeness.. Points to ALO here! Just think of "The Last Time", "Have You Seen Your Mother, Bay", "Get Off of My Cloud", etc. Just put “Rocks Off”, “Soul Survivor” or whatever next to them and you will hear the similarity.

I think it has most to do with attitude and creating an atmosphere. That makes EXILE, and that’s something they originally had in their breakthrough records and what made them originally so phenomenal. I think that is the secret of EXILE and distinguishes it from the other ‘golden era’ albums. It guides us back to pre-BEGGARS days. There is more BETWEEN THE BUTTONS in it than in any of the other three.

One of the distinguished features of the sound of EXILE is Mick and Keith's co-singing. Surely, Parsons might have a role in musing Keith way to sing, but damn that was the crucial feature in Stones sound already in 1965-67! I think there are two BUTTONS era songs I think crucial here: besides mentioned "The Night" just listen "Connection" - they sound young, and no stylishly perfect yet, but damn the way the guys sing together and how the song rolls on is pure EXILE! For some reason, in EXILE they got back that easiness and lightness in their approach that makes them roll so 'easily' or 'naturally'. You didn't hear that in their masterpieces from 1968 to 1971 that were more - and don't get me wrong - this is all reletive! - uptight.

So, let me repeat, and pardon boring you with this long post, what makes EXILE different is that The Stones re-discovered their natural wild, energetic rock and roll attitude they had during ALO days, and by then they didn't need anymore to worry about the means: they were masters in anything they decided to do. If STICKY FINGERS was their 'formal' master thesis, EXILE was their dissertation. With EXILE Mick and Keith showed that they really trust own instincts, and they don’t need to copy anyone to sound original. One feature of that was rediscovering their ‘old’ rebellious and instinctive attitude, that didn’t give a shit about making possible mistakes if the feel is right. That’s the elixir which gives EXILE its eternal freshness and vitality. EXILE ON MAIN STREET is the culmination of their first ten years of existence, and I hope I have give some light to one side that is not so much talked about.

Sorry that this post is so incoherent, and surely a hell to follow. If a discussion arises, I try to be more clear.

To all who followed:

- Doxa

No you are right. And this is part of my idea (hardly just mine) of how they constructed Let it bleed on a sound and style they get from others, Ry Cooder being a main influence, and of course with the help of Miller.

When they record Exile the scene has changed. Keith has found his own unique style of using Open G and standard tuning when building songs around a riff. Actually he might have knicked a few ideas from Jagger's power chord use of open G on Brown Sugar.

From Cooder, via Mick, to Exile. On Exile I dont hear any "stiff" copying (compare HTW, Monkey Man, Live with me or Rambler). What we hear is what came out the other end of an era where they really took Ry, Gram and themselves for all they had. Exile is pure Stones to the bone.

The same could maybe be said of their live performances. 1972 is pure Stones live. 1969 is a showcase of songs and styles, just like Let it bleed (rock drama ala Doors, country, blues, shuffle). Its not bad of course, I love Let it bleed.

Hey Doxa,
Interesting thoughts about Exile - my favorite album of all time. I don't come to it from the same perspective as you. That is, seeing it as a departure from BB, LIB, and SF by returning to their roots & letting some of the "fine-tuning" slip through their fingers. That said, I'm not an early Stones disciple. While I've had Hot Rocks in my collection since the 70s and truly enjoy their earlier stuff, I couldn't really speak to the progression of their sound & style in terms of albums and production, other than the three records before Exile. However, you have an interesting point about the joy and frenzy the album exudes.

There is definitely something unique about Exile. There is no other album like it. How that came to be is fascinating to explore. I think I agree with 71Tele, that the sounds don't resonate their earlier "pop" style. Exile is just so damned perfect in a truly imperfect way. In fact, a perfect storm of rock and roll.

Keep in mind that "several" songs had been in the works long before the band moved to France.

Dear Doxa, I just love your contributions! Never too long, never boring. You hit the nail again and again.

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keefbajaga
Dear Doxa, I just love your contributions! Never too long, never boring. You hit the nail again and again.

+1 Never stop Doxa, you start us up.