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His Majesty

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Mock Jogger

Leadparts like on Mona or The Last Time (the riff) are technically much harder to play than anything Keith played at the time.

Utter nonsense!

I have to agree. There is nothing technically difficult about those guitar parts and Keith would have been more than capable of playing them....

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neptune
Mock Jagger, I have to agree with almost everything you said, particularly the part about Brian's live playing. In almost all live footage of Brian playing guitar, he doesn't make many mistakes. He makes LRR on Ed Sullivan look way too easy- he's smiling and posing for the cameras while playing at the same time! During the '65 NME performance of the Last Time, Brian's playing the signature riff perfectly, all the while having a conversation with Bill. I think the problem is this perception among many people here that Brian's parts were simple. And in making that judgement, Brian's guitar abilities are generally dismissed by many on this site as 'mediocre' or 'shaky'. The mistake in making such judgements, I believe, is basing them on the criterion of playing guitar in 2009. In 1964 and 1965, guitar playing in rock, blues, and folk was rather simple. Even Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck's playing in the Yardbirds up until 1965 was simple in comparison to today's standards. Thus, I think such judgements about Brian's playing are unfair and 'shaky' at best . . .

LRR is easy to play, all of Brian's guitar parts that we know for sure is him are easy to play, but most of the time it sounds good in context...

There in lies the true talent of Brian's guitar playing, making simple things work really well, the sound and feel being more important than how hard it is to play.

But, even by early - mid 1960's standards, aside from his best slide studio recordings, there's nothing out there demonstrating that he could play anything that's above the ability of a guitarist with basic technical abilities.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-12-28 20:43 by His Majesty.

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Mathijs
utter crap

Mathijs's trying to make a point. Impressive; but not as impressive as proving his own ears wrong about who played the Tell Me solo. Maybe Mathijs should discuss with himself. There would be a lot of controversy without any content.

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His Majesty
Utter nonsense!

I don't know ... somehow I think Mathijs' reasoning is slightly more convincing.

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His Majesty
Regarding Regent Sound, circa 1963/64 they had(at the very least) a 2 track Revox.

You are right. If you weren't, the Stones would have had trouble to record, without a machine. The actual point here was: did they record three track (with two machines and then definitely with overdubs) or two track. Do you understand?

His Majesty, I'm still waiting for the list of Brian messing up parts live or in the studio.

In the meantime, a few things to discuss about:

- does anyone here seriously think the riff on Satisfaction is more complex than the riff on The Last Time? Come on, His Majesty, aren't you one of the best musicians on the net? Just tell me, I want to know.

- does anyone here seriously claim Keith is not messing up his solo part on Off The Hook at the TAMI show (and on many, many other songs around this time)?

- does anyone here seriously consider Keith's Time Is On My Side solo anywhere near the beat of the song? (Both studio versions, though the Chess one is worse than the remake.)

- does anyone here seriously say Keith's solos on It's All Over Now, Time Is On My Side, Heart Of Stone, The Last Time are taylormade for the specific song and could not easily be used on other songs with only slight changes as well (or in other words were actually only slightly changed for other songs)?

- has anyone (for His Majesty will never show up with it) a list with Brian guitar parts that prove his musical incompetence in rhythm, tune and style on stage and in the studio, especially as compared with more solid Keith parts?

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His Majesty
But, even by early - mid 1960's standards, aside from his best slide studio recordings, there's nothing out there demonstrating that he could play anything that's above the ability of a guitarist with basic technical abilities.

I disagree with that. For the standards of 1964 and 1965, I think Brian was way above having 'basic' technical abilities. Look at all the video clips from that time involving rock, blues, folk, pop, etc. Brian was certainly not a player of just basic talents. Many bands from that time would have loved to have had a guitarist with his talents. Pete Townshend recently stated that he dreamed of playing like Brian back then . . .

sitar

I'll ignore the childish parts of your post Mock...

From the limited information out there via articles in old Beat Instrumentals etc, it seems that Regent Sound circa 1963/64 only had one 2 track Revox and another mono machine for mixing down to.

There are pics from some sessions at the time and it shows both the revox and mono machine on the wall near the mixing desk.

...

I am not saying Brian messed up a lot, nor that he had poor rhythm etc, I am saying all of his guitar parts were basic and easy to play.

The exceptions to this are his best slide performances like I Can't Be Satisfied, Little Red Rooster. Even those aren't that technically difficult, but the sound and feel of them is where the magic is!

But, if you really must hear Brian play guitar badly then listen to the first 5 or so takes of The Lantern from the Satanic Sessions box set. Thin sound, lots of bum notes, questionable tuning and timing.

For further takes Brian is on organ, lots of mistakes there too which is probably why the organ only fades in a few times in the final mix, Keith is on acoustic guitar playing far more solidly and with a better tone than Brian had been.

Keith has never been a technical virtuoso, but generally speaking he was a better, more confident guitarist than Brian... but Brian was the better slide player.

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neptune


I disagree with that. For the standards of 1964 and 1965, I think Brian was way above having 'basic' technical abilities. Look at all the video clips from that time involving rock, blues, folk, pop, etc. Brian was certainly not a player of just basic talents. Many bands from that time would have loved to have had a guitarist with his talents. Pete Townshend recently stated that he dreamed of playing like Brian back then . . .

Way above? Ability wise on guitar Brian was much like many of the wanna be r&b players of the time, but he had an ace card in the form of great ability with slide.

The young British players who were ''way above'' the pack were the likes of Jimmy Page, Colin Manley from Remo Four and most definitely Jeff Beck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-12-29 05:58 by His Majesty.

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neptune

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DandelionPowderman
His guitar playing was quite shaky, but he had a good sense of timing. It's called knowing your limitations, not musical professionalism, imo.

Can you please explain how Brian's guitar playing is shaky? Can you provide any specific examples to back up your claim?

Well, if Brian is playing the lead part in Tell Me, that one is a good example, imo. He's moving out of his turf clearly, which is keeping a steady rhythm and doing the simple, but effective slide stuff. There are also things on Aftermath and even on No Expectations (which I love dearly, including Brian's playing) that show that Brian is a basic player, and that he lacks the little extra (not necessarily thinking about solos here).

Brian's was a genious because he knew his own limitations, and still was able to give us wonderful music with subtle touches from a variety of instruments. But he was a shaky guitar player.

Some of these threads lately defy reason.

oldham hated brian? seems like he kisses his ass and despises mick and keith in his weird poetry on the more hot rocks and necrophilia albums

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DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
Some of these threads lately defy reason.

This is just healthy debate. Don't be such a bore.

Fact is, you can hardly hear Brian in live recordings of the 64-66 era. That says a lot.

For the last time, he was a fair to middling musician who had a facility for picking up new instruments and making fair to middling music on them in a short period of time.

Zack pretty much sums it up. The truth is as usual somewhere in between all our arguments.

I would say Brian was a more "mature" musician than Keith in the early days. He was a pioneer on the blues and slide guitar, and as such he got a lot of admiration from his contemporaries (including Mick and Keith themselves). But he never revolutionized anything with his playing style. We can probably agree that he played safer and tighter (and some might say more professional) than Keith. But his guitar parts were often more simple than Keith's.

Keith -- despite being sloppy and perhaps repetitive -- was in the end the more adventurous and devoted guitarist, which would pay its dues in the late 60s when he really put down his mark in music history.

One thing that also comes into this is how Mick, Keith and Andrew tended to stick together against Brian, who wasn't writing songs and was allowed less and less musical input. That's probably one reason he almost gave up the guitar and experimented with other instruments and styles.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-12-30 16:49 by LieB.

I remember watching this on English TV at the time. They mimed, & it was Keith on the acoustic 12-string, Brian on his Vox 6-string & Charlie on the tambourine. Brian did the arpeggio solo on the Vox. Whether they used this format in the studio I have no idea, but that's how they mimed it on TV.

I was 14/15 at the time & highly impressionable, to the point that I eventually got a Vox 12-string & have had a variety of acoustic 12-strings, currently using a Martin & a custom made Leadbelly-style Stella copy. The Martin is definitely for the lush strumming such as Tell Me & Good Times Bad Times, while the the Stella copy thunders like an old steam engine blazing through the prairies.

I won't bite into the 'who was the better guitarist', but Brian nailed 'Can't Be Satisfied' & that is far better than a fair to middling piece whilst Keith had Chuck Berry down pat. I think different styles is what we're on about here, & they were both good at what they did.

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Zack
Fact is, you can hardly hear Brian in live recordings of the 64-66 era. That says a lot.

For the last time, he was a fair to middling musician who had a facility for picking up new instruments and making fair to middling music on them in a short period of time.

Try viewing NME Pollwinners 1965 where Brian's guitar can clearly be heard. Then go on and take a look at clips of Ed Sullivan May 2, 1965. And for the last time, Brian may not have been MT or Eric Clapton on guitar, but he certainly wasn't a middling player who contributed middling music.

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neptune

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DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
Some of these threads lately defy reason.

This is just healthy debate. Don't be such a bore.

You got to be kidding me. A healthy debate is when both sides come with valid points, make their argument based in reality; in the hopes that new viewpoints emerge. Or that one side convinces the other.
Don't really see that shaping up here.

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DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
You got to be kidding me. A healthy debate is when both sides come with valid points, make their argument based in reality; in the hopes that new viewpoints emerge. Or that one side convinces the other.
Don't really see that shaping up here.

There have been plenty of valid points made. Get off your high horse.

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DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness

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neptune

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DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
Some of these threads lately defy reason.

This is just healthy debate. Don't be such a bore.

You got to be kidding me. A healthy debate is when both sides come with valid points, make their argument based in reality; in the hopes that new viewpoints emerge. Or that one side convinces the other.
Don't really see that shaping up here.

LOLZ! (Sorry about my lack of contribution here, but I had to let you know how much I'm enjoying this.)

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vox12string
Brian nailed 'Can't Be Satisfied' & that is far better than a fair to middling piece whilst Keith had Chuck Berry down pat. I think different styles is what we're on about here, & they were both good at what they did.

I agree with this, but would add that Keith became the better more versatile player partly due to him sticking with guitar as his main instrument.

I do wonder whether or not Brian liked Chicago blues soloing/lead guitar which greatly influenced many other players of the time!? There's just no sign of that style in his playing though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-12-30 22:32 by His Majesty.

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DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
Some of these threads lately defy reason.

A typical response from somebody who clearly knows nothing about music, especially since if you or other people here had decent ears you'd all realize the solo from 'Tell Me' was played in OPEN F, on a slide made of polished hind leg of a muskrat, with a modified Ovation routed through a mop bucket.

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Mock Jogger
Mathijs's trying to make a point. Impressive; but not as impressive as proving his own ears wrong about who played the Tell Me solo.

What I said is that I foremost trust my ears, and my ears tell me there aren't any markers telling who played the electric part. It's just a standard plucking of the main chords of the melody. There's some picking mistakes, timing is a bit off -it could be anyone basically: Keith, Brian, or any session musician walking in and out for those sessions.

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Mock Jogger
His Majesty, I'm still waiting for the list of Brian messing up parts live or in the studio.

To my knowledge there aren't many clear mistakes -but that's not the point. Brian wasn't a very good guitarist, and you can just hear that through many of his parts, except for the slide. His guitar parts can be divided basically in two categories: tremelo picking of the main chords, or Berry-styled R&B drive. His guitar parts are very basic, and always have that 'shakyness' about them. You can simply hear the guitar wasn't his main instrument, and that he wasn't well trained for a longer period of time. Fact is that he himself didn't consider himself a guitarist but a harpist. fact is that he doesn't play guitar on more than half the songs recorded in 63 and 64, and this becomes less and less from 65 on.

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Mock Jogger
- does anyone here seriously think the riff on Satisfaction is more complex than the riff on The Last Time?

No. Both are not complex and can be played by a guitarist with very basic skills.

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Mock Jogger
- does anyone here seriously claim Keith is not messing up his solo part on Off The Hook at the TAMI show (and on many, many other songs around this time)?

What solo? There's no solo on OTH, just a couple of fills on the turn-arounds.

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Mock Jogger
- does anyone here seriously consider Keith's Time Is On My Side solo anywhere near the beat of the song? (Both studio versions, though the Chess one is worse than the remake.)

The solo on the organ version is perfect, and to add: not very easy to play, not in '64 not in 2009. The timing is certainly not off, but as on many of these mid-60's tracks there's the obligatory tambourine with reverb, and that makes it a bit messy. There's many examples, also outside the Stones, where you can wonder why on earth they needed that tambourine. On TIOMS the solo part is a bit messy, with lead guitar, tremelo picked guitar, organ and tambourine -I am sure it this was recorded these days with Protools the engineer will line-out everything right on the beat, especially the tremelo picked guitar and tambourine, as this will give the lead guitar more room to play around the beat.

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Mock Jogger
- does anyone here seriously say Keith's solos on It's All Over Now, Time Is On My Side, Heart Of Stone, The Last Time are taylormade for the specific song and could not easily be used on other songs with only slight changes as well (or in other words were actually only slightly changed for other songs)?

Well, all solo's are clearly in the Keith Richards' 60's style of playing, with HOS actually as a very nice, well thought out solo -most probably inspired by Jimmy Page. But the Stones, and clearly also Richards, where finding there own style in this period. After some years of copying other guitarists he was finding his own voice and style, which would ultimely lead to the Stones as we know it. Fact is that most of Richards parts from the first sessions on are not that easy to play, and need several years of guitar playing to execute properly. The lead guitar parts you mentioned, tracks like Carol and Route 66, but also a track like 'Good Times, bad Times' -you need more than basic skills to play this part.

I would like to turn this discussion around. Instead of looking for mistakes, please name all fantastic, intricate and difficult to play Brian Jones guitar parts that proofs that he had more than basic skills on the guitar. Please name the parts where we all can agree that it would need quite some skill to play it like he did.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-12-31 14:21 by Mathijs.

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His Majesty
But, if you really must hear Brian play guitar badly then listen to the first 5 or so takes of The Lantern from the Satanic Sessions box set. Thin sound, lots of bum notes, questionable tuning and timing.

For further takes Brian is on organ, lots of mistakes there too which is probably why the organ only fades in a few times in the final mix, Keith is on acoustic guitar playing far more solidly and with a better tone than Brian had been.

I wonder if this was with or without drugs in his body?

I think that Brian had an amazing feeling in his playing no matter what instrument he played. He wasn't technically amazing. He just wasn't John Coltrane (still I remember reading about his virtouso playing on the sitar...yeah..like that really shows on Paint it Black).

But as every musician knows that doesn't make him a "bad" musician in any way. Just like Mick has said I also believe Brian never gave himself a chance to get really really good at any instrument because he was too found of finding new sounds and ways to express himself. He learned enough to make it sound good and then got fed up with it. Believe me, I know the feeling. But Brian wasn't just another dabbler as his instruments made many of songs in the mid 60's. They really are the frosting on the cake. He knew how to apply his new found sounds without making it sound overproduced and that is pretty rare.

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neptune

Try viewing NME Pollwinners 1965 where Brian's guitar can clearly be heard. Then go on and take a look at clips of Ed Sullivan May 2, 1965. And for the last time, Brian may not have been MT or Eric Clapton on guitar, but he certainly wasn't a middling player who contributed middling music.

I did. He does go from G to A great. Just kidding. You can hear him and obviously he can play decently.

My question is who is the guy with the long blond hair, shades and hippie threads who introduced them?

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Mathijs

I would like to turn this discussion around. Instead of looking for mistakes, please name all fantastic, intricate and difficult to play Brian Jones guitar parts that proofs that he had more than basic skills on the guitar. Please name the parts where we all can agree that it would need quite some skill to play it like he did.

Mathijs

Over to you Mock!

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Zack

My question is who is the guy with the long blond hair, shades and hippie threads who introduced them?

Disc Jockey, presenter and all round crazy guy Jimmy Saville!





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-12-31 18:17 by His Majesty.

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Mock Jogger
His Majesty, aren't you one of the best musicians on the net?

I don't think I am, but you can judge for yourself...

Old demos...

Sundaramusic

Review...

[www.psychedelicfolk.com]

Currently playing with these guys...

Tupelo Town Assembly

D*A*M pedal demos, I like fuzz!

philipsoundclips

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His Majesty

Currently playing with these guys...

Tupelo Town Assembly

good stuff, but salto en reno is a great piece of music !

just finished a hogmanay gig in elgin town hall last night / this morning,
road home was horrendous.

First, a reminder of how the discussion started: tonterapi said, without any explanation, Keith was the stronger guitar player, compared to Brian. Then His Majesty joined in, stating since the Tell Me solo wasn't anything difficult to play, it would be possible it was Brian, thus implying Brian could only play simple parts. Again, this assessment wasn't explained in any way. And when before Mathijs had declared - again, without any explanation standing a second thought - the solo was played by Keith, it had been done with the idea in the back of his mind that there definitely is and definitely can't be any Brian part that can be heard, because Brian would not play good enough for that. Putting together the three opinions of tonterapi, His Majesty and Mathijs reveals the total absurdity of their view, which is: Brian was a bad guitar player. This is not their conclusion drawn from a close inspection of facts, theories, whatever, but it is their presupposition. That's why the discussion was on the low level neptune complained about. You can't force anyone to discuss if he just wants to reproduce his prefabricated ideas. I seriously doubt the people so heavily disagreeing with me, calling me "childish" and my points "utter crap" etc. even read my posts completely.

My request to present any Brian guitar part showing his low playing quality remained unanswered with the exception of a The Lantern outtake (really some obvious choice! More about that later). Instead I was asked to name my favorite Brian parts. My pleasure, see the list below.

So in fact the fixed idea of Brian's limited technical abilities doesn't come from observation, it comes from the image of the drugged out Brian of the late 60s, the Brian that even was supposed to be unable to hold his guitar anymore, a complete fairy tale with zero reality in it. (What actually happened is that Brian increasingly lost his position in the group as he increasingly lost touch with Mick and Keith in 1968/69. This has nothing to do with the quality of his playing and can happen - and frequently happens in other bands - to every player who is not playing basic instruments like bass or drums. And even to them in can happen. It's a matter of band chemistry, which is very hard to judge from the outside.)

Mathijs, His Majesty and the other Stones fans with a mainstream perspective judge Brian's musical contributions of the early days by their distorted view about Brian's role during his last year with the Stones. This is totally anachronistic. You don't understand the early Stones if you think the positions in the band were the same in 1964 as in 1969. Keith was not considered the main musician by anyone in 1964. He was important, of course, but certainly not more important than Brian.
Bill Wyman, about the situation as late as mid-1966:

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While Brian could understand Jagger's position by virtue of his role as a singer, he was less inclined to concede any superiority of position to Keith, who was certainly less popular with the fans and who contributed less musical inventivness than Brian to our sound. (Stone Alone, paperback edition, p. 460)

Now Mathijs and His Majesty were quick with their take that Brian's guitar parts on Mona and The Last Time weren't anything special. Whatever you might think, you should accept there are other views. Again, Bill Wyman, on a recording session taking place in early January 1964:

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The tracks were Chuck Berry's 'Carol' and 'Route 66', plus Bo Diddley's 'Mona (I Need You Baby)'. Brian's supremacy and instinctive musicianship was evident on the last track. Even Keith recalled later: 'I've never heard anybody, before or since, get that Bo Diddley thing down. Diddley himself was astounded, saying that Brian was the only cat he knew who'd worked out the secret of it.' (Stone Alone, p. 215-216)

So both Keith and Bill had a higher opinion of Brian's guitar playing skills than some of the posters on IORR. (An opinion expressed on the occasion of a recording session on which Keith provided some of his most remarkable parts, on Carol and Route 66. So Brian's guitar on Mona made really some impact on his band colleagues.)

There are other quotes with simular content. Charlie Watts, characterizing Brian in the magazine Disc in early 1966:

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The first time I met him he had a guitar in his hand. My first impression of him was just of a very good guitar player. (quoted in Stone Alone, p. 434)

Gary Lucas, whom to call a "respected guitarist" would be an understatement, said about seeing the Stones in concert in late 1965:

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Stones first rolled into my consciousness upon overhearing the immortal meme-like refrain of "The Last Time" on someone else's transistor, a riff from the Gods which burned itself into my brain and wouldn't switch off (Brian played this motif live on his D and G strings, up around the 9th, 7th and 5th frets of his Vox Phantom--not at all what they teach you in "Guitar Player"-- not at all obvious a voicing... and not as easy to play up there as it sounds)...
(See Lucas' blog: April 2008 - you have got to scroll down a bit to Some things just stick in your mind) [garylucas.com]

Playing it that way obviously made a big impression on Lucas. In July 2009 he came back to the topic, calling Brian a "crafty fella" for playing the part "not at all in first position on the first three frets, as is the received guitar mag wizdom". See: [garylucas.com]

There are quite recent remarks by Bob Dylan that show he was impressed by Brian's guitar playing as well. Muddy Waters is quoted in Bill's other book, Rolling With The Stones, saying on the occasion of his visit of the Stones' first recording session (second day) at Chess in June 1964:

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That guitar player ain't bad. (Rolling With, p. 129)

Jimmy Thomas, singer with Ike and Tina Turner's back up group The Ikettes, recalling the Sept./Oct. 1966 UK tour with the Stones:

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[O]ne night in Coventry [sic] I heard some stinging blues coming out of a dressing room. It was Brian Jones playing the guitar. He was in there all on his own. And the guy was good! We didn't know anybody could play like that in England! (See Chris Welch, The Tina Turner Experience, paperback edition 1994, p. 108)

When Bo Diddley came to England in 1963 and needed a backing group for five songs for a BBC show, his choice were Brian Jones, Bill Wyman and Charlie Watts. (Not Keith - at this stage Brian was the guy in charge.) Diddley was impressed enough to ask them to back him up on the forthcoming tour. They declined the offer for image reasons, trying to build up a name for their own. Here is Diddley's direct quote about Brian - the one that so untypically stuck in Keith's memory:

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the only white cat that ever got my rhythm (Bill Wyman, Rolling With, p. 77)

About the tour the Stones joined the bill with Diddley, Bill says:

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That night [3 Oct. 1963] we jammed backstage with Bo Diddley and the Everlys and their band. We did a lot of Elmore James songs, with Brian playing slide. You should have seen Bo's face when Brian pulled off the licks perfectly. (Rolling With, p. 83)

Now you should have seen his face when Mathijs' students played this the first day they ever touched a guitar!

Bill Wyman, Keith Richards, Charlie Watts, Bob Dylan, Muddy Waters, Gary Lucas, Bo Diddley, Jimmy Thomas: are they all idiots without any clue about playing music? If Mathijs and His Majesty are right, they are.

Seriously, Brian Jones was a very respected guitar player. And it seems he made a bigger impression on his contemporaries than Keith.

neptune and I both have said very clearly that Brian was not a virtuoso player like Jeff Beck, Hendrix, etc. No one ever claimed that. Back in 1964/65 the players he was compared with were those in other pop groups. Take a look at the cast of the TAMI show, add the Beatles and the Animals and you'll get a good idea about the competitors. None of these groups would have complained if they had to take Brian as a guitar player, I guess most of them would have prefered him to Keith. That's why I said by conventional standards Brian was the better player. If the Stones would have played their TAMI version of Off The Hook to a record producer, he surely would have seen need to work on Keith's lead parts, not on Brian's rhythm, for the very simple but important reason they are played better.

You will never get me to dislike Keith' s playing. I've got more time for him than for Santana or other superplayers I'm just not interested in. It was always part of the Stones' charm they didn't give too much a damn whether their playing was always exact. Only, it is completely absurd to blame it on the guy who usually played it right, Brian. And Keith's big problem of playing properly on stage, even getting his guitar in tune (Hyde Park, US tour 1969, etc.) can't be denied. For my taste, as much as I like his sloppy attitude, he should have tried to get it done a bit better than he often did. Not much better, but at least a bit.
When I read something like Mick and Keith working extra hours in the studio like on The Last Time in Jan. 1965 (Stone Alone, p. 348) I have a picture of Keith in mind, trying to get his little standard solo done in 40 takes or so. When BBC-Beatles-tapes resurfaced it was evident George needed quite a lot attempts to get I Feel Fine done. Keith was a simular player, very nervous and clenched, both without the natural ease and groove Brian had.
However, Keith progressed over the years, and if his solo on Time Is On My Side was a necessary step to his masterpiece on Sympathy For The Devil, it was worth it, in my opinion.

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His Majesty

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Mock Jogger
His Majesty, aren't you one of the best musicians on the net?

I don't think I am, but you can judge for yourself...

Sorry, I didn't want to stimulate your pride. I believe you are a good musician without listening to the links. Only it seems to me a discussion board is not the right place to present yourself as musician. I like your main theme of A Degree Of Murder recording, though. Spot on the topic, a nice and good work, respect for that.

Now, The Lantern outtakes as example of Brian playing badly. I know these session tapes exist. The Lantern I never heard, though. So I can't judge it. I guess it's audio only, so it's probably not so easy to ascribe an instrument to a player, if there is not a direct reference in the in-between talk. You'll understand I'm sceptical because of your preferential method for determining Brian's contribution by simply looking for the part played worst. If I understood you correctly, you believe Brian's part is electric guitar. You know, two years or so ago I found a discussion on a general rock music board about The Lantern and the funny thing is they all agreed Brian must have played the acoustic because it was played so lousy and they read somewhere Brian wasn't any good anymore in the studio in 1967. You see, here we are back at the start of my post, Mathijs thinking a solo's too good for Brian, you think it's not so good, so it could be Brian and so on. The discussion I had with you about Jumping Jack Flash here some time ago followed a simular pattern. If your presupposition is identical with your conclusion, then that's leading nowhere.

Now, my favorite Brian standard guitar parts:

Mona (lead), Tell Me (solo), It's All Over Now (rhythm), You Can't Catch Me (rhythm), The Last Time (main riff), I'm Alright (lead, Live-EP/US-Out Of Our Heads-version), Blue Turns To Grey (electric 12 string lead), Get Off Of My Cloud (electric 12 string lead, admitted: this one is really simple, but beautiful), Miss Amanda Jones (my all-time favorite rhythm guitar).

(If you add Brian's slide parts for their early singles, you'll easily realize how important his guitar was for the succession of crucial singles that lead the way to Satisfaction: I Wanna Be Your Man, It's All Over Now, Little Red Rooster, The Last Time: without Brian's guitar these tracks would be unthinkable.)

The interplay between Brian and Keith I love most on the following tracks:

Cry To Me, Mercy, Mercy, 19th Nervous Breakdown (only GLIYWI-live version, the studio version is too slow for my taste), Jumping Jack Flash.

Guitar parts I love without knowing for sure whether they are by Keith or Brian:

Good Times (- NOT Good Times, Bad Times, lead), Flight 505 (solo), Parachute Woman (lead, studio version)

And, just for the sake of it, my favorite Keith parts:

Carol (lead - no matter what good old Chuck thinks about it!), Route 66 (lead), Around And Around (lead), Satisfaction (main riff), Sympathy For The Devil

Long post, greetings to everyone who's still with me!

The early takes of The Lantern definitely feature Brian on acoustic guitar, we hear him being talked to and talking, all in relation to his playing/tuning on the acoustic... Glyn Johns specifically talks to Brian about his acoustic guitar tuning.

After these early takes Brian plays organ(lots of mistakes), with Keith taking over on acoustic... Glyn Johns specifically talks to Brian about the distorted sound/volume of his organ playing.

Also, in that box set there's some evidence which suggests Keith played the mellotron intro to STAT(see what happens).

...

Lets face it, in most cases, unless there is some strong proof, we are all speculating here.

Strong proof would be something like live footage from nme 1964 in which we see Keith playing the lead motif on I'm Alright, not Brian, he's playing the chords Mock.

I'll leave this topic by saying...

Brian is my fav stone and he is the reason I got in to the band in the first place. My interest in The Rolling Stones is only really focused on the time Brian was a member.





Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2010-01-20 04:45 by His Majesty.

A whole lot of discussion here, Without Brian no Rolling Stones.It was the beginning of a music industry.They lived with each other,it goes about influence>there was no internet .....etc.Yes the revoxrecorder with that sound on sound .Maybe a band at that time with Mick JaGGER AN kEITH AND ???? MAYBE FOR A FEW MONTHS or two years?who knows .Even Charlie thought it was for a short period.
I try to make clear that Keith and Brian and the rest learned from each other an d the rest is history.

P.S.What if Brian was still alive? He was a creative man.