Quote
timbernardis
this may be it, but someone told me there was another one even more closely in alignment with the album cover:




The Roman style pillars in the background kinda compare but the crowd is not giving him the fascist salute.

u know there are pics of members of the Stones and the Who in nazi uniforms from the 60s, maybe 70s, and of course the punks did a lot of that, but mostly for shock value, not cuz they were pro nazi. where is this photo from with the greek/roman columns?

still i realise it is a totally different thing to a german and i doubt there were ANY german punks wearing swastikas as they would have been arrested.

but i do NOT think the stones based their colours deliberately on the third reich,just as i do not believe mick is pronazi/antijewish or whatever just cuz he did some work with leni.

But I do wonder and scatch my head tryin to figure out what was in his mind, maybe just a working with a celebrity thing as someone said. But can that be taken as kinda unknowing/not wanting to know/callous on his part?

Hate to say it again, but there are shades of Celebrity and Idolatry that seem to abound in this topic. Who is idolising who?


p

where is this photo from with the greek/roman columns?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-31 20:37 by The Greek.

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Gazza
That's not the one, Tim - the one I'm thinking of is so blatant, its quite striking.

This is probably from this one Peellaert worked...







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-31 21:06 by mitch.

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The Greek

Quote
timbernardis
this may be it, but someone told me there was another one even more closely in alignment with the album cover:




The Roman style pillars in the background kinda compare but the crowd is not giving him the fascist salute.

u know there are pics of members of the Stones and the Who in nazi uniforms from the 60s, maybe 70s, and of course the punks did a lot of that, but mostly for shock value, not cuz they were pro nazi. where is this photo from with the greek/roman columns?

still i realise it is a totally different thing to a german and i doubt there were ANY german punks wearing swastikas as they would have been arrested.

but i do NOT think the stones based their colours deliberately on the third reich,just as i do not believe mick is pronazi/antijewish or whatever just cuz he did some work with leni.

But I do wonder and scatch my head tryin to figure out what was in his mind, maybe just a working with a celebrity thing as someone said. But can that be taken as kinda unknowing/not wanting to know/callous on his part?

Hate to say it again, but there are shades of Celebrity and Idolatry that seem to abound in this topic. Who is idolising who?


p

where is this photo from with the greek/roman columns?

mitch - yes i am sure u are right. Gazza - is this the one u were thinking of? And pls describe what the bettmann archives is and where it is.

plexi


the foto I found is from [www.leninimports.com]

it can be found right in the middle of the rectangular gallery towards the bottom of the page. It is from one of the Nurnberg party rallies from 36-38, in there. I went to the Party Rally Grounds in between stones concerts in june 07 and it is amazing, just by virtue of the fact that the columned facade and the stone seating and the whole grounds have survived at all.

note: the site from whence the foto came seems a bit weird and i wonder if it is some kind neo-Nazi site. I mean, check it out for yourself.

Why they werent bombed out of existence is beyond me. I think the large stone swastika that once adorned the top of the comlumned building/facade was blown up and in fact i think there is historical footage of its explosion.

The Fuhrerpodium is still there. However awful of a place, it should always be preserved for history and as testament to that time and that terror. It is really part of a huge complex built around a lake and includes a massive unfinished congress hall which i think was designed by Speer. Tho unfinished, it is still huge and u can get a definite idea of the total expanse of the building and complex.

And, also something one must see there is a Nazi Documentation Center/museum built into part of the would-have-been Congress Hall. It is huge and very sobering. Other such documentation centers are at Obersalzberg, just below the Eagle's Nest in the Bavarian Alps, and I believe there are one or two others, will have to think and see if i can remember the locations of the others.


p

timbernardis, thank you for the ansewr, can you tell me when was this place built,pre third reich ,or was this one of @#$%&'s public works projects in the mid thirties. to me it kinda looks like it was around before @#$%&?

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mitch

Quote
Gazza
That's not the one, Tim - the one I'm thinking of is so blatant, its quite striking.

This is probably from this one Peellaert worked...

yep. Thats the one.

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timbernardis

mitch - yes i am sure u are right. Gazza - is this the one u were thinking of? And pls describe what the bettmann archives is and where it is.

plexi

It's an online historical photo archive.

What year was Peelaert's book Rock Dreams? 1973?
That had the Stones/Nazi photo, too.
He probably went one step further for the IORR cover.

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tomk
What year was Peelaert's book Rock Dreams? 1973?
That had the Stones/Nazi photo, too.
He probably went one step further for the IORR cover.

can someone post that foto?


the plexi

Thanks a lot for the link of the interview with Steven Bach. Very interesting author and a very interesting book. He seems to have absolutely understood, what Leni was all about. Here's a quote from a book review by Simon Callow (The Guardian, UK) about the latter days of her life. Mick gets mentioned:

- quote -
As she entered her eighth decade, her determination to conquer new worlds had by no means abated: having photographed the Munich Olympics and Mick Jagger, she became the oldest underwater diver and photographer in the world. When she was 85, her comprehensively unconvincing Memoirs appeared; at 90 she resumed her ugly struggle to disinherit her niece and nephew; she celebrated her 100th birthday by showing the film she had made from her underwater footage (The Triumph of the Gill, the wits called it). On her birthday itself she was taken to court - with carefully calculated timing - by a Gypsy organisation which accused her of Holocaust denial in the matter of the extras from Tiefland; she issued a terse statement acknowledging the reality of their fate. Shortly afterwards she died, "as she had lived", in Bach's properly savage phrase: "unrepentant, self-enamored, armor-clad".
- end of quote -

Bach's book reveals that she herself spread the rumor of a sexual relationship with @#$%&, which most probably never existed in reality, just because she had slept with men only to be able to manipulate them. She's pictured as a very brutal, self-centered and careerist woman, who was clearly fascinated by men that have power over the masses, manipulate them and use them (like she did herself as well). Not a very charming character trait, methinks....

I just wonder when will some Stones fan notice this similarity? Stupid as all above.

I'm adding small picture : Leni, @#$%&, Goebels, Her mother Bertha, and brother Hainz (he died and Russian front). Picture is from 1938. I still belive that she was lost in this occasions, and don't support nazi regime...

...........



ROCKMAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-01 00:54 by Rockman.

Quote
The Greek
timbernardis, thank you for the ansewr, can you tell me when was this place built,pre third reich ,or was this one of @#$%&'s public works projects in the mid thirties. to me it kinda looks like it was around before @#$%&?

This was specifically a Third Reich project, would have to double check, but it seems that, like The Eagle's Nest haus and road project, it was a monumental effort requiring special materials, a speeded-up materials delivery and construction schedule, and it was just still a ways off when the war started and then not much work got done after that as materiels were diverted to the "war effort."

They even had to sink loads of earth, rocks, maybe other stuff, into part of the lake which it bordered on/was partially built on, just to build the foudation and to support the massive structure.

I will try to post some of my fotos of the entire site (Kongress-Halle (spelling??), Party Rally Grounds, etc) later this week when I get a chance.


plexi

Quote
Gazza

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mitch

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Gazza
That's not the one, Tim - the one I'm thinking of is so blatant, its quite striking.

This is probably from this one Peellaert worked...

yep. Thats the one.

It's too bad Peelaert didn't quote from this photo more directly, instead of putting that Maxfield Parish fantasy layer on it.

Imagine a grittier, b&w painting, with four tongue logos in the background.

This topic is getting more strange all the time -- i was browsing that site from which the foto i posted came, the one I had suspected just by the front page of perhaps being a neo-nazi site, and look what I found:




anyone heard of this film? here's the link to the page which describes that film:

[www.leninimports.com]

the description doesnt seem too bad altho a bit apologetic, as in apologists, but look at this from the same site:

Triumph of the Will by Leni Riefenstahl (1934)
Video & DVD.

Feb. 09: Added the uk 2 dvd release of Triumph of the Will to our UK shop.

the Triumph of the Will is one of the most important films ever made. Not because it documents evil--more watchable examples are being made today. And not as a historical example of blind propaganda--those (much shorter) movies are merely laughable now. No, Riefenstahl's masterpiece--and it is a masterpiece, politics aside--combines the strengths of documentary and propaganda into a single, overwhelmingly powerful visual force.

Leni Riefenstahl was hired by the Reich to create an eternal record of the 1934 rally at Nuremberg, and that's exactly what she does. You might not become a Nazi after watching her film, but you will understand too clearly how Germany fell under @#$%&'s spell.

The early crowd scenes remind one of nothing so much as Beatles concert footage (if only their fans were so well behaved!).


Addendum:

they even have a Leni Riefenstahl Shop page: [www.leninimports.com]


p



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-01 06:44 by timbernardis.

..........



ROCKMAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-01 06:49 by Rockman.

rocky:

looks like Keith has a mustache -- Keith as @#$%&??

Is this modelled after @#$%& or just an early version of his ugly 2007 'stache??!!


p



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-01 06:47 by timbernardis.

Me know nuffin'........



ROCKMAN

Rolling Stones, The - Rolling Stones Nazi album cover

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expert: Stonesstein - 4/7/2008

Question
My husband was given a Rolling Stones album back in the early seventies. The cover is salmon colored and has a black and white photo of the Sones dressed in Nazi uniforms sitting with four very young naked girls, Mick is wearing a g string and stockings. Can you tell me anythings about this cover?

Answer:
April -

SORRY for the delay in getting back to you - I have been having system problems.

This bootleg LP has likely a variation of a famous Guy Peelardt drawing of the Stones as you describe. While I know of a couple different bootlegs with different song titles on them which have this cover, I can tell you that it is not particularly valuable.

It is worth holding onto as a novelty and a cool conversation piece. The LP was certainly never endorsed by the Stones, who most likely never knew of its creation, release, and existence.

I hope this helps, and again, my apologies for the delay.

Quote
timbernardis
Why they werent bombed out of existence is beyond me. I think the large stone swastika that once adorned the top of the comlumned building/facade was blown up and in fact i think there is historical footage of its explosion.

The Fuhrerpodium is still there. However awful of a place, it should always be preserved for history and as testament to that time and that terror. It is really part of a huge complex built around a lake and includes a massive unfinished congress hall which i think was designed by Speer. Tho unfinished, it is still huge and u can get a definite idea of the total expanse of the building and complex.

I live in Italy and lots of public buildings and monuments built during Fascism are still there and preserved, for example the Foro Italico, AKA Stadium of Marbles



or the EUR





It'd be pointless to destroy good building for the sake of deleting proof of something that happened anyway.
I do personally love Rationalist architecture and, even though it was a trademark of countries ruled by dictators of the mid '30 like Mussolini, @#$%& and Stalin, I'm glad those buildings are still around.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-01 12:10 by dunhill.

Intresting topic i must say.

I have the sunday times most sundays but cant recall these photos mentioned.

Timbernadis

That DVD cover is about one of the best documentary ever done
From Wikipedia
In 1993, she was the subject of the acclaimed German documentary film The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl, directed by Ray Müller. Riefenstahl appeared in the film and answered several questions and detailed the production of her films.[51][52] She was also the subject of Müller's 2000 documentary film Leni Riefenstahl: Her Dream of Africa, documenting her return to Sudan to visit the Nuba.



Part 1





Part 2

Why should Mick not associate with her. She was a fellow artist. Should we all only associate with people whose political/social views we agree with. I'd love to have met Leni and asked her all about @#$%&, Goering, Goebbels, etc. It's fascinating.

Here another review from Wiki about Leni documentary

The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Directed by Ray Müller
Written by Ray Müller
Starring Leni Riefenstahl
Bruce Robinson
Sylvia Marriott
Joseph Blatchley
Release date(s) September 11, 1993
Running time 188 minutes
Language German
Followed by Leni Riefenstahl: Her Dream of Africa
The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl (Die Macht der Bilder: Leni Riefenstahl) is a 1993 German documentary film about the life of German film director Leni Riefenstahl. She is best known for her Nazi propaganda film, Triumph of the Will. The documentary was directed by Ray Müller.

The U.S. release of this film, in 1993, coincided with the publication of Leni Riefenstahl's autobiography (Leni Riefenstahl: A Memoir, [New York, 1993]), as well as with her ninetieth birthday. The two releases are not unrelated. “The Wonderful, Horrible life of Leni Riefenstahl” was born from an idea of Leni Riefenstahl herself, who, motivated by her old age and already working on her “Memoirs”, decided to commission a documentary about her life. Concerned about being associated with the “Nazi director”, eighteen filmmakers declined the project, before Ray Müller agreed to portray Leni Riefenstahl in what ended up being a three-hour long documentary (three times its contract length).

The length of the film is therefore the result of a decision by the director: Ray Müller justifies it as an attempt to give a fair representation of Leni’s life, which can’t be reduced to the 8 years she worked for the regime, but presents much more interesting stories and facts that are relevant to understand her personality. Showing more historical material about her life, according to Müller, also helps to compensate the strong image of herself that Leni tries to impose throughout the movie, giving the viewer a better chance to draw his own conclusions.


Reception

The film garnered a strong critical response. It currently has a 95% rating amongst critics cited on the Rotten Tomatoes film review website.[1]

"This movie is fascinating in so many different ways: As the story of an extraordinary life, as the reconstruction of the career of one of the greatest of film artists, as the record of an ideological debate, as a portrait of an amazing old woman." Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times[2]

"Consistently fascinating documentary... This very significant film is the fablelike story of a woman whose search for the ideal, not unlike Ms. Riefenstahl's search in a very different world, leads to disaster." Vincent Canby, New York Times[3]

Art In America - October 1999



ROCKMAN

Thanks for posting, Rockman! Funny how Riefenstahl looks just like some girl from the 60s on the pic with @#$%&... Look at these clothes ;-) You could even think that THIS was the photomontage mentioned in the text



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-01 15:18 by Greenblues.

Art In America - October 1999



ROCKMAN

dunhill: yes we do want to preserve these buildings, but one historical note about Mussolini's attempt to create a "new" Rome somewhat along the lines of ancient Rome is that, for example, his rerouting of the wide avenue that runs near the ancient Colosseum, in the process of its construction, destroyed some ancient archeologial sites connected to ancient Rome/the ancient forum and I think the same can be said of the construction of the gleaming white monument of the Temple of Victor Emmanuel (Monumento Nazionale a Vittorio Emanuele II )which was built right on top of the ancient Capitoline Hill -- bad choices, what a loss.

I believe that avenue I just mentioned was specifially built for purposes of the anticipated victory parades that Mussoli would hold after the "great victories" of the Italian forces. Well, he wasnt very successful except for beating down little Ethiopia. He was attempting to connect his new Rome with that of ancient Rome but he didn't come close to matching the record of his ancestors.

one other note: there was quite a difference in the style of fascisct architecture between Italy and Germany -- Italy was into lots of gleaming white (marble?) whilst in Germany, fascist architecture was largely the gray granite type which can still be seen today in Goering's air ministry building (massive building still in use today as a gov't building) and, of course the 1936 Olympia Stadion(Olympic Stadium) where the Stones have played numerous times over the years.

I saw my first Stones show outside of the US in 2006 in that stadium which, just two weeks before, had witnessed the great victory of Italy over France in the World Cup final, wish I had been there for that.

And oddly enough, out of nowhere, I had this two minute conversation with some German Stones fans outside the stadium in 2006 which led to a relationship which ended up in me joining, eventually, the Stones German fan club, Stones Treff, meaning meeting or gathering place. It is a great fan club, one much smaller and more intimate than "the IORR behemoth". I love IORR, but the small size and intimacy of stonestreff.ch/stonestreff.de is very nice.


the plexi



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-04-01 15:24 by timbernardis.

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timbernardis

Quote
The Greek
timbernardis, thank you for the ansewr, can you tell me when was this place built,pre third reich ,or was this one of @#$%&'s public works projects in the mid thirties. to me it kinda looks like it was around before @#$%&?

This was specifically a Third Reich project, would have to double check, but it seems that, like The Eagle's Nest haus and road project, it was a monumental effort requiring special materials, a speeded-up materials delivery and construction schedule, and it was just still a ways off when the war started and then not much work got done after that as materiels were diverted to the "war effort."

They even had to sink loads of earth, rocks, maybe other stuff, into part of the lake which it bordered on/was partially built on, just to build the foudation and to support the massive structure.

I will try to post some of my fotos of the entire site (Kongress-Halle (spelling??), Party Rally Grounds, etc) later this week when I get a chance.


plexi

thank you for the ansewr to my question .i am troubled but not surprised in the least that mr jagger would use someone of her background and the only cynical explantion that i can come up with is she probaly said she would do the work for free which we all know what a sheenie that mick is ! mick whats the matter annie lebowitz wanted you to pay for her photos and well we know that you dont like letting go of pound now do you? bad taste mick let me remind you of a little fact .do you remember world war 2 .do you remember the blitz in london ? if not please check with your friend keith richards and he will fill you in on THE FACTS .wow poor judgement mick

Quote
iamthedj
Why should Mick not associate with her. She was a fellow artist. Should we all only associate with people whose political/social views we agree with. I'd love to have met Leni and asked her all about @#$%&, Goering, Goebbels, etc. It's fascinating.

(emphasis added)

Indeed, but these "political views"?? Those of racial/national superiority and genocide??

And certainly, we all would have loved to have spoken with Leni and asked historical questions, but to associate with her in some project or "creative context", not so sure.

Maybe we also would like to have put her on trial for crimes against humanity. The tools of mass media are far more effective in creating support/swaying public opinion than a single individual and their views and activities.

Yet, the question must be asked: how could she have had influence in a country already predisposed to some extent to accept that message for various reasons, not the least among which was the terrible treatment by the Allies in the Treaty of Versailles which ended World War I.

I cannot justify what later happened on that. People do make choices. But it certainly can be argued that it did create the resentful climate in which a person such as @#$%& can thrive and did thrive.


p

One thing should be made clear: She wasn't directing Nazis at their party rally. She was directing her camera people to film what the Nazis had been staging. And that was impressive even to pompous Nazis.