Rare material hold-outs, name your conditions!

It’s evident and obvious that some people may have some rare, cool sounding stuff not even known to most collectors. There are many reasons why these people may not want to share what they have. I am not judging these people! I myself consider some concerns legitimate:

1. Future release? I doubt you will see Bill Wyman “sharing” the material from ‘the vaults.’ We can only hope to see part of it released on a new box set, or bonus disc.
2. $$$. If they have unique item, sharing it will instantly decrease the value. Take the 1963 Crawdaddy Club reel-to-reel recording that sold for £23K at Christie's in May 2004 - if that dude shared it with bootleggers, who would ever pay that much again? It would not be good for his investment.
3. Not wanting to see bootleggers profit. As sure as sh!t, once the cat is out of the bag, even from a generous sharer, bootleggers will steal it, and then sell it as their own. Somewhat despicable at first glance, but on the other hand, a necessity and the reason we have 90% of what we do.
4. It’s “theirs.” Some people may have been involved directly with the recording and it may have a sentimental value, or they may feel a responsibility not to divulge it out of respect for the band or for legal or moral reasons. Legit, unless they are also hypocrites when considering the other stuff in their collection.
5. Sworn to secrecy. Some people may have received material under the condition ‘never to share’ it. The problem with these arrangements is that ‘never’ is not a reasonable timeframe, and the source doesn’t update the conditions after they lose the desire to be exclusive.
6. Do not want their business seen on the Internet. I can certainly respect one’s desire for privacy. Contact me privately if you have something to share
7. Recognition. Some may deserve, or feel they deserve proper recognition as the originator of the material. Call it ego or whatever, but it may be a fair point rather than all the credit going to DAC, GR, Rattlesnake or the like. Under the right circumstances, I think most, at least the purists, will note who is responsible for originating the material – if they know who it was. In some cases, the titles are named after them (ie The Lost Millard Tapes)
8. Wanting ‘something’ in return. Warning – soapbox to follow, look away now if you have sensitive ears. The problems with this forum, as with others, you have some people that would share the shirt of their back and try to single-handedly appease everyone else on the board. You have people they pay the pricy cost of new boots and then share with all asking nothing in return. And then, at the same time, you have a number of free-loaders that ‘contribute’ by asking for others to post stuff, not offering anything in return, and often without even saying please or thank you as if it is their right. Sickening. Who wants to share with these people? I cannot blame them.

Bottom line: most people reading this are true Stones fanatics. We cannot get enough Stones material, no matter how much we get we will always want more. Most will offer something significant in return for a chance at new material, and you will certainly be honored amongst the grateful rest of us for uncovering new material. If you have something uncirculated, please consider passing it along before you die. No one lives forever, and you cannot take it with you. It would be a shame for all to lose that stuff forever.

If you have something that is not circulating, or only circulating inside small circles, what will it take to change your mind? What is holding you back? Name your conditions! (hypothetical or otherwise)

(Someone already offered 40 acres and a mule – and that was just for the All About You outtakes!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-09 16:39 by blakeeik.

Thanks for starting this thread that originated in the "Rarest Outtakes" thread where out of the blue a new poster called "bkeys" shared 30 new unknown snippets of Paris sessions, mostly 1982 and I think it's a good example to illustrate your points.

(Outtakes) Fans were rather happy while one owner of that material (obtained through the elusive "trading circles" ) wrote that he didn't think it was right to only share snippets..."non-owners" can only disagree as it's obviously better than not having anything at all. He also explained that these snippets come from tapes that were sold on eBay a few years and that many people had them. It seems it would pass all the "requirements" you list, not much commercial value, not "private", etc...yet why would they share it? Well for one they'll lose something to trade if they need arises, then they'll certainly be frowned on by other members of the "trading circle".

On the other hand you have people who record live shows with some risk (getting caught and thrown out), at the very least the worry of setting things up properly, then go through the trouble of working on the files, naming them, preparing a torrent, and then share the audio as quickly as possible (yeah I've done it several times so I know what it takes) on Dime where the members of the "trading circle" are certainly among the first to download the show.

Not fair, eh? But as you point out no one lives forever and sharing is something that will elevate anyone so don't wait until it's too late!

PS - Let's not forget that sharing can come in various forms so let's raise our glass to FA, NZ and ME who share their knownledge of unreleased material in books/websites and without whom we wouldn't be able to sort through the material that's been made available so far and the material that is yet to come, cheers guys.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-09 16:50 by gotdablouse.

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gotdablouse
Well for one they'll lose something to trade if they need arises, then they'll certainly be frowned on by other members of the "trading circle".

"Trading" in the traditional sense is pretty much dead. You use to be able to produce 10 or more trades with a new title via tapes or CDr via snail mail. Now thanks to the Internet, 'trade' it once, and everyone else has it almost instantaneously. "Sharing" is a better name for it now. Some old-timers may have difficulty changing something that has been ingrained in them, but technology changes everything.

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gotdablouse
On the other hand you have people who record live shows with some risk (getting caught and thrown out).

I think these days too are almost over. Today, in crowd of 100,000, about 90,000 have the capability to record the show in their pocket. Some in HD video. The tolerance and policies with these recordings are already changing. Technology will only get better.

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gotdablouse
PS - sharing can come in various forms so let's raise our glass to FA, NZ and ME who share their knownledge in books/websites and without hom we wouldn't be able to sort through the material that's been made available so far and the material that is yet to come.

True dat!

1. I meant "trading" in the sense of "exchanging", not making actual copies of course, which as you say used to be a chore.

2. "Today, in crowd of 100,000, about 90,000 have the capability to record the show in their pocket"

Yeah but someone's still got to put it on Dime so others can enjoy it and who goes through the trouble of doing that? At best you get 2, maybe 3, different versoins of a show attended by tens of thousands of people so that percentage is really low. Sometimes you get nothing, like the Singapore show this year

3. In fairness we should also add people who have access to the material and write about in detail here or elsewhere from time to time, that's certainly a way of sharing too.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-09 17:11 by gotdablouse.

@gotdablouse, sorry - I did not mean to appear to 'correct' you, I was just adding to your points.

Quote
blakeeik

It’s evident and obvious that some people may have some rare, cool sounding stuff not even known to most collectors.

I think you have two cases : insiders and outsiders

- insiders aka record industry people (who might not even be Stones fans) who happen to be given rare Stones stuff. If they liberate it they're burnt.

- outsiders aka harcore fans. These ones will pay for antyhing new/rare. How can you get them to share what they have for free?

Conclusion : in the age of non-profit trading aka "sharing" we won't get anything new apart from audience recordings of contemporary shows, usually posted the day after the gig took place.

Try crowd funding...I'm in for $40...

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dcba
I think you have two cases : insiders and outsiders

Conclusion : in the age of non-profit trading aka "sharing" we won't get anything new apart from audience recordings of contemporary shows, usually posted the day after the gig took place.

Agree - insiders bound by contracts should not be selling/leaking stuff.

But this thread asks for the alternative to your conclusion - if you have something rare, what are your conditions to share it? Conditions can be anything from cash to promises not to post it or sell it to bootleggers. Old saying: "everyone has their price."

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Munichhilton
Try crowd funding...I'm in for $40...

an option, but wouldn't the amount depend on what is for sale?

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blakeeik

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Munichhilton
Try crowd funding...I'm in for $40...

an option, but wouldn't the amount depend on what is for sale?

If All About You alternate is included, whatever else comes with it is gravy! $40 I'm in...

It'll show. In due time. Patience please.

Stand down everybody...give the guy some space...

@bkeys : you have all the space you need from my perspective, and please don't feel this thread is directed at you because it is not. You may have aided in the timing by substantiating the revelation that there may be bundles of new stuff not completely out of reach! This thread was intended to look for new stuff from any source. But thank you for the insight!

Whatever turns up here - as soon as something unreleased turns up I will up a goodie, promised.

Wow, great news guys bkeys and silkcut1978 ! There've been a few goodies like "It's a Lie" (long version) posted in the "rarest outtakes" thread (besides the 30 snippets), how about one goodie to get the ball rolling silkcut1978 ;-) Or anyone else for that matter! Since I can edit the first message over there feel free to send me an email and I'll add it anonymously if need be.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

Let's open the vaults...I guess something is going to see the light soon.

nicely spoken.

Great thread. I've always wanted to hear unreleased stuff from the Bridges To Babylon sessions. Hope something will surface from it some day.

While I was an admin on "Rollingstonesboots" (I guess I still am, but since trees and the like are something from the past, there isn't going on much anymore) out of the blue, a member asked me if I was interested to get his recordings of two previously unreleased shows.

Can't remember which ones they were, but they had never been in the open or bootlegged.

Of course I was very interested and a week later the CD's arrived, with the express wish of the taper to share, which I did by treeing them on Rollingstonesboots.

Less than a month later, those two titles were released by a major bootleg label.....


.

Chris from Belgium

Yep it sucks and I remember something similar happening when the third batch of DW outtakes surfaced in 2001, the good thing is that these days if anything appears here or on Dime it will be available for free to anyone who does a quick search when bumping into a new bootleg.

For instance say a bootlegger decides to add "She Was Hot (extended)" to a new release like they did with "It's a Lie" for "B&B Ultimate", well a Google search of "she was hot extended" and you get straight to the download.

On the other hand and like blakeeid wrote in #2, without bootleggers, fans not within the "trading circles" would probably have close to zero unreleased material to listen to so...it works both ways. Or it used to as a lot of us sank small fortunes on these boots when there was nowhere else to go, oh well that was fun too ;-)

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

. Sworn to secrecy. Some people may have received material under the condition ‘never to share’ it. The problem with these arrangements is that ‘never’ is not a reasonable timeframe, and the source doesn’t update the conditions after they lose the desire to be exclusive.


Your points are good, but you are leaving out one aspect involved in the one I have selected above:

Some people receive/trade material (and I am referring to outtakes or professionally recorded SB or film/video) under the condition not to share/trade it unless it is for something of equal 'value' - meaning rarity. Anything I have been fortunate enough to come across that is uncirculated remains that way unless I am offered something I can then offer back to my original source, and from a source I am fairly certain will not turn around and 'liberate' that material. That would ruin my relationship, and my word.

Some people may find that silly or pompous, but you also have to understand that in a circle of people that includes many thieves and self-interested folks, one 'currency' that is respected is that of keeping your word. Most people who establish relationships within these circles are well aware that if you burn someone or violate their trust you are pretty much guaranteed to not have access to anything else again. Some people don't care about that and are too self-absorbed to care about a relationship like that over the ego rush of being the one to liberate something or make a fast, and usually minimal, buck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-13 07:47 by JMARKO.

I suppose realy the best hope is that the Stones themselves will trawl through their vaults and release some kind of 'real' rarities box set(s). Thus making a lot of material held by collectors valueless. Will we ever see 'Save Me', 'Travellin Man', Fiji Jim ...etc officially released. Oh... probably, in all likelyhood some time after the band have ceased to be, and likewise a few of us on this board. Sigh...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-13 09:11 by rumple21.

I can imagine the treasures that have been lost throughout history. In the end there's nothing anybody can do, it's the way some of us are wired and we can't change that. My thought is try to let it go, sometimes that's hard for me to do myself.

Quote
JMARKO
. Sworn to secrecy. Some people may have received material under the condition ‘never to share’ it. The problem with these arrangements is that ‘never’ is not a reasonable timeframe, and the source doesn’t update the conditions after they lose the desire to be exclusive.


Your points are good, but you are leaving out one aspect involved in the one I have selected above:

Some people receive/trade material (and I am referring to outtakes or professionally recorded SB or film/video) under the condition not to share/trade it unless it is for something of equal 'value' - meaning rarity. Anything I have been fortunate enough to come across that is uncirculated remains that way unless I am offered something I can then offer back to my original source, and from a source I am fairly certain will not turn around and 'liberate' that material. That would ruin my relationship, and my word.

Some people may find that silly or pompous, but you also have to understand that in a circle of people that includes many thieves and self-interested folks, one 'currency' that is respected is that of keeping your word. Most people who establish relationships within these circles are well aware that if you burn someone or violate their trust you are pretty much guaranteed to not have access to anything else again. Some people don't care about that and are too self-absorbed to care about a relationship like that over the ego rush of being the one to liberate something or make a fast, and usually minimal, buck.

Totally agree.

Chris from Belgium

Quote
frankotero
I can imagine the treasures that have been lost throughout history. In the end there's nothing anybody can do, it's the way some of us are wired and we can't change that. My thought is try to let it go, sometimes that's hard for me to do myself.

Very well put, besides it must suck to be a huge Stones' fan and not be able to share with other huge Stones fan because someone gave you "stuff" 20+ years ago under the "never give it to anyone else" restriction. On the other end of the spectrum you have people who take risks taping concerts and go through the trouble of sharing them so that other fans (including those sitting on "stuff" ) can enjoy them within hours of the show taking place.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-13 14:42 by gotdablouse.

Quote
JMARKO
Some people receive/trade material (and I am referring to outtakes or professionally recorded SB or film/video) under the condition not to share/trade it unless it is for something of equal 'value' - meaning rarity. Anything I have been fortunate enough to come across that is uncirculated remains that way unless I am offered something I can then offer back to my original source, and from a source I am fairly certain will not turn around and 'liberate' that material. That would ruin my relationship, and my word.

Some people may find that silly or pompous, but you also have to understand that in a circle of people that includes many thieves and self-interested folks, one 'currency' that is respected is that of keeping your word. Most people who establish relationships within these circles are well aware that if you burn someone or violate their trust you are pretty much guaranteed to not have access to anything else again. Some people don't care about that and are too self-absorbed to care about a relationship like that over the ego rush of being the one to liberate something or make a fast, and usually minimal, buck.

Absolutely. Many of us have come across a similar situation. This thread is looking for alternatives to keeping them unsurfaced. How can you offer to share something if not advertised? I am not saying (in the least bit) to post it for all - but how to keep it alive within a circle of people willing to sacrifice something in return? Ideas?

Quote
blakeeik
Absolutely. Many of us have come across a similar situation. This thread is looking for alternatives to keeping them unsurfaced. How can you offer to share something if not advertised? I am not saying (in the least bit) to post it for all - but how to keep it alive within a circle of people willing to sacrifice something in return? Ideas?

If two or three trusted people could be found that are willing to "archive" all that material, without sharing it, it wouldn't be lost if the "only" one having it would somehow be gone.

The problem is of course to find some people you can absolutely trust.......

.

Chris from Belgium

Quote
coowouters
While I was an admin on "Rollingstonesboots" (I guess I still am, but since trees and the like are something from the past, there isn't going on much anymore) out of the blue, a member asked me if I was interested to get his recordings of two previously unreleased shows.

Can't remember which ones they were, but they had never been in the open or bootlegged.

Less than a month later, those two titles were released by a major bootleg label.....

Chris, thanks for doing that. Rollingstonesboots had its time and place in history. But yes, I also remember some unsavory fellows from the mailing list.

Quote
coowouters
The problem is of course to find some people you can absolutely trust.......

Difficult, true, but if I lowered the standard to "absolutely trust" to "adequately trust" I could name people from this forum alone just based on the kind of posts they make.

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blakeeik

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coowouters
The problem is of course to find some people you can absolutely trust.......

Difficult, true, but if I lowered the standard to "absolutely trust" to "adequately trust" I could name people from this forum alone just based on the kind of posts they make.

And I AM sure that if everyone of us write a list of those names we all would have a high coincidence area!