Although the song's lyrics were written by Verve vocalist Richard Ashcroft, it has been credited to Keith Richards and Mick Jagger because the song uses the Andrew Oldham Orchestra recording of The Rolling Stones' 1965 song "The Last Time" as its foundation.

Originally, The Verve had negotiated a license to use a sample from the Oldham recording, but it was successfully argued that the Verve had used 'too much' of the sample.[4] Despite having original lyrics, the music of "Bitter Sweet Symphony" is largely based on the Oldham track (the song uses the sample as its foundation and then builds upon, though the continuous riff is Ashcroft's creation), which led to a lawsuit with ABKCO Records, Allen Klein's company that owns the rights to the Rolling Stones material of the 1960s. The matter was eventually settled, with copyright of the song reverting to ABKCO and songwriting credits to Jagger and Richards.

“ "We were told it was going to be a 50/50 split, and then they saw how well the record was doing," says band member Simon Jones. "They rung up and said 'we want 100 per cent or take it out of the shops', you don't have much choice."[5] ”

After losing the composer credits to the song, Richard Ashcroft commented, "This is the best song [Mick] Jagger and [Keith] Richards have written in 20 years."

From Wikipedia



I cannot believe I have not heard this song before today






But I think I've seen this movie

Bittersweet Symphony is a great song. It's one of those songs that defined a decade for me (Must mention Oasis' Don't Look Back In Anger, Blur's Country House, Britney Spears' ...Baby One More Time, Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit and The Stones' Out Of Control in the same breath here).

JumpingKentFlash

Saw Richard Ashcroft on a VH1 special a while back performing Bittersweet Sympathy with a guitar and saxaphone. Take away the Last Time loop and there is still a song there.

Its a Verve track all the way.

Verve were a great band. Back together this year.

Did The Stones have much to do with the lawsuit? Wasn't it an all ABKCO thing?

JumpingKentFlash

The lawsuit was an ABKCO thing. The Stones played the song on the PA during the BtB tour so the Verve got some money because it wasn't Mick and Keith suing.

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The GR
The lawsuit was an ABKCO thing. The Stones played the song on the PA during the BtB tour so the Verve got some money because it wasn't Mick and Keith suing.

Nice gesture.

JumpingKentFlash

ROCKMAN

I remember I read a quote by Keith in Q Magazine a couple of years ago:

"If they'd come up with some original, they'd have kept the money"
(or something like that)

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Thommie
I remember I read a quote by Keith in Q Magazine a couple of years ago:

"If they'd come up with some original, they'd have kept the money"
(or something like that)

Sigh, another sly dig from Keith. They borrowed a tune that probably, very few have heard and turned it into an absolute classic. Keith had nowt to do with the recording anyway.

There is so much more to the song. The lyrics, the swagger, Evan the excellent video.

the very ugly side of music business! the song is fantastic and it really has nothing to do with the (orchestral) stones track. it has an own, incredible mood. it's a song that defines a period or even a decade!
i really hope keith didnt say such a stupid thing like "if they'd come up with some original, they'd have kept the money". with this argumentation alot of great stones tracks would fall into this category, just because they use chordprogressions and boogie-riffs that have been used many times before. but no one would say that, because the stones made something new and great out of it. that's also originality and creativity. just like the verve did with bittersweet symphony.

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JumpingKentFlash
Bittersweet Symphony is a great song. It's one of those songs that defined a decade for me (Must mention Oasis' Don't Look Back In Anger, Blur's Country House, Britney Spears' ...Baby One More Time, Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit and The Stones' Out Of Control in the same breath here).

this was a good list until you got to Out of Control

Defined a decade, you gotta be kidding, at leat i hope you are

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guitarbastard
the very ugly side of music business! the song is fantastic and it really has nothing to do with the (orchestral) stones track. it has an own, incredible mood. it's a song that defines a period or even a decade!
i really hope keith didnt say such a stupid thing like "if they'd come up with some original, they'd have kept the money". with this argumentation alot of great stones tracks would fall into this category, just because they use chordprogressions and boogie-riffs that have been used many times before. but no one would say that, because the stones made something new and great out of it. that's also originality and creativity. just like the verve did with bittersweet symphony.

"nothing to do with the (orchestral) stones track".. Well, that's strong words.
Ok, the lawyers draw it way out, but nevertheless: ya can without any
extra-terrestrial hearing abilities hear that this track is the mother source.

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Baboon Bro

"nothing to do with the (orchestral) stones track".. Well, that's strong words.
Ok, the lawyers draw it way out, but nevertheless: ya can without any
extra-terrestrial hearing abilities hear that this track is the mother source.

of course the sample is very important. but the verve put it in a completely different musical context. they wrote a new song. it has its own mood, lyrics and style. it is very unique and special!
and as i said: the stones copied manymany times or took fragments of existing tracks to create something new!

Still, they stole the melody LOCK STOCK AND BARRELL...perfectly suitable to sue over the music. They should have just credited the Stones as writers of the music on the original... No problem after that.
JR

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stone-relics
Still, they stole the melody LOCK STOCK AND BARRELL...perfectly suitable to sue over the music. They should have just credited the Stones as writers of the music on the original... No problem after that.
JR

Perhaps, but you could argue that it should never have been a Jagger/Richard credit in the first place. It was an orchestral piece which they had nothing to do with.

The song title is theirs, but I don’t hear any elements of their original in the ALO version at all.

Disagree. The song is credited to MJ/KR on the ALO Orchestra, hence, legally, its their song. The music on the Verve song is verbatim to the ALO version.
JR

The ironic thing is Mick and Keith getting songwriting credits for Bittersweet Symphony. Let's see, the lyrics were written by Ashcroft. The song itself was based in large part on the Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra's version of the Stones' The Last Time, which doesn't sound at all like it. The Stones' The Last Time was in large part based on the Staples Singers hit This Will Be The Last Time, which supposedly was an old gospel tune going back to the 1800's. Lastly, the only thing truly original and special about the Stones' hit version is Brian Jones' repeating guitar riff. Without that riff, the song doesn't become a hit single. Thus, when it comes down to it, Ashcroft, the ALO Orchestra, the Staples Singers, and the Brian Jones estate SHOULD also each be getting a piece of The Bittersweet Symphony 'pie'. But, instead, Mick and Keith get all the royalties for it when they, in reality, contributed hardly anything noteworthy. No wonder there's so much hatred for the music biz.

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stone-relics
Disagree. The song is credited to MJ/KR on the ALO Orchestra, hence, legally, its their song. The music on the Verve song is verbatim to the ALO version.
JR

Yes, you're technically right. But, despite that, it still makes me scratch my head when Jagger/Richards get 100% credited for the Verve song. There is absolutely NOTHING similar between the Stones The Last Time and the Verve's hit.

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neptune

Yes, you're technically right. But, despite that, it still makes me scratch my head when Jagger/Richards get 100% credited for the Verve song. There is absolutely NOTHING similar between the Stones The Last Time and the Verve's hit.

yeah you're right. there are so many things i love about this band, but there are some things i just wont ever understand, and to be honest i find it quite uncool & unsympathetic.

1. not giving writing credits to brian and mick taylor
2. not giving the designer of the stones-tongue an extra share after it became so succesfull.
3. the story we're talking right now: that they get 100% credit for a song they just simply didnt write...

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neptune
There is absolutely NOTHING similar between the Stones The Last Time and the Verve's hit.

i disagree.
ALO's The Last Time and The Verve's B.S.S are almost identical.

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Adrian-L

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neptune
There is absolutely NOTHING similar between the Stones The Last Time and the Verve's hit.

i disagree.
ALO's The Last Time and The Verve's B.S.S are almost identical.

Agree 100%. The ALO Ochestra version is IDENTICAL, down to the bell...

JR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-05-24 18:11 by stone-relics.

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stone-relics

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Adrian-L

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neptune
There is absolutely NOTHING similar between the Stones The Last Time and the Verve's hit.

i disagree.
ALO's The Last Time and The Verve's B.S.S are almost identical.

Agree 100%. The ALO Ochestra version is IDENTICAL, down to the bell...

JR

and thats why they should get 100% writing credits? COME ON!
just listen and you hear that the verve song is just a completely different piece of music!
lets face it: it's just not fair and very unrock n' roll that they get 100% credits for that and in a way its very greedy...

You could say it sounds similar if you sing it a certain way. You could sing "Saturday night's alright" to Brown Sugar is you wanted to. You could sing "Start Me Up" to The Cult's "Love Removal Machine" if you wanted to.

I think ABKCO Records should be renamed @#$%& Records...

Led Zeppelin ripped off Willie Dixon and he didn't get credited until he had to sue their lame asses! And whoever else they ripped off - their first 2 albums don't have one original song on 'em.

It sounds nothing like The Rolling Stones. If The Verve were to remix the song without the crappy strings in there it would sound totally different and no one would be able to accuse them of ripping off the Stones because the entire tune is nothing at all like The Last Time.

And I thought Keith played that guitar lick anyway, it never occurred to me Brian did that since he was too busy stroking his saxophone...

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Adrian-L

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neptune
There is absolutely NOTHING similar between the Stones The Last Time and the Verve's hit.

i disagree.
ALO's The Last Time and The Verve's B.S.S are almost identical.

No, I was referring to The Rolling Stones' The Last Time, NOT the ALO Orchestra's version. Yes, the ALO Orchestra's version of TLT and the Verve's Bittersweet Symphony are almost identical, and that's why I believe the conductor of the ALO Orchestra should receive a bigger share of the royalties (along with Brian Jones)!

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skipstone
And I thought Keith played that guitar lick anyway, it never occurred to me Brian did that since he was too busy stroking his saxophone...

Jesus, how many times do people have to be reminded that it was Brian playing that riff! Go to youtube and look at all the video clips of the Last Time, and you'll see Brian playing it on various live and recorded performances.

Jesus smeshus - I've never given a shit about who played that lick, just thought it was Keith, I've never cared about watching a video for that song, whatthefuckever, go further out in orbit would'ja?

Oh that's supposed to be A-S-S-H-O-L-E Records....

Another version - Live





Again, I can't believe before yesterday I never heard this song - must have played it about 30 times since.

sorry, but they were right to sue.......sing the first line of the last time followed by the first line of bittersweet symphony!!

"I told you once and I told you twice...."
"it's a bitter sweet symphony..."

It's the same notes!!!!!!

still a great song though.......keith also said when asked about the legal action..."ah that's all lawyer shit".....allien klein and ABCKO sued not mick and keith..

Basically The Verve have just carried on a music tradition of nicking stuff from the past and making something new out of it. The problem with doing that these days is that a lot of the time people actually borrow from the actual ol recordings.

Listen and you'll hear that the only original part of the Verve's song is the words.





The skipping string part on The Verve song is essentially there in the tubular bell parts on the ALO version which clearly has been influenced by the part Brian played on the Stones recording.

They should simply have credited the music to J/R's and the words to Ashcroft.

ABKCO probably would have stuck to the 50/50 agreement had it now become a big hit, but then again, they screw anyone whenever they feel like it!