I'm trying to put some order in the events and dates related to April 1963 when Peter Jones, Gomelsky, Oldham and Easton discovered the band.

Let's start saying that the Stones played the Crawdaddy on Sunday and there are three venues listed: 14, 21 and 28 April.

On 21st there's the shooting of Giorgio Gomelsky; Bill writes in his book that the day before, therefore saturday 20th , the band gathered at the Morden Studios and recorded two tracks: It's all right baby and Pretty Thing. The day after they were filmed while doing these two tracks live: the movie last 7 minutes and includes arrival of the band and assembling the instruments on stage. We know that R.G. Jones Jr. mixed the two tracks with the film.

Let's jump now to 28th: this is the date when Oldham brings Easton to the Crawdaddy and chat with the boys inviting Brian to discuss the contract the day after. The contract was signed on may 1st and a second contract with Impact Sound was signed on May 6.

Oldham states in his book that he went to Richmond alone the week before, therefore the 21st. But ALO also says that the band was indicated to him by Peter Jones and, according to the sources, Peter Jones was invited to the Crawdaddy by Gomelsky on 21st inoccasion of the shooting of the movie.

Therefore there's something's wrong with the dates: if Peter Jones went on 21st and Alo went also on 21st how comes that Jones spoke with ALO about the Crawdaddy before this date?

There is a possible reconstruction of the facts: Peter Jones went on April 14 (and not 21st). This means that he was invited by Giorgio, but not for the date of the shootings.

According to the book of Philip Norman, Peter Jones wrote an article on the Record Mirror dated April 21st.
This fact could help to solve the matter.

Anybody knows how the Record Mirror dates system works? The issue dated April 21st (sunday) was out the week before (from 15 to 21) or the week after (from 22 to 27)?

Other point: anybody can confirm that Peter Jones wrote an article about the Crawdaddy scene on this Recor Mirror issue?


Vanni

for what it's worth: on pages 183-184 of Stoned, ALO says Peter Jones told him about the Stones before he had seen them himself.
he says Jones knew about them from Norman Jopling, who was writing an article about them.
so theoretically anyway both Jones and ALO might have gone to see for themselves on the 21st.

Jones obviously remembers it differently, but ... [scratching head]

>> Record Mirror dated April 21st <<

the Record Mirror publishing dates seem to be saturdays, though - for example may 11th -
so wouldn't it be the issue dated april 20th?

>> Anybody knows how the Record Mirror dates system works? <<

i second that question - and wander off pondering how confusing it will be to future historians
that the "december issue" of periodicals now comes out in like october!
even more confusing if it used to work the other way around ...

>> the book of Philip Norman <<

is it Symphony for the Devil you mean? published in 1984?

and while i'm here: does anyone here own the early version of James Phelge's book, called Phelge's Stones?
i only have the later one, called Nankering With the Stones, and i'm curious whether there are many differences.

Philip Norman book title is "The Stones - the acclaimed biography" edite by PAN published 1984.

Yes, ALO reports that Jones told him that Norman Jopling had gone to the Crawdaddy and was writing an article. And also that Peter Jones had not yet seen the band.

Hence: the first who went to the Crawdaddy seems to be Norman Jopling together with the photographer Bill Williams who shot the 4 pix of the band at the Crawdaddy (one of the pix is in the N.J. article). Norman Jopling spoke with Peter Jones and this one with ALO.
On 21st ALO went to Richmond.
On 28th he went back together with Easton.

This means that Peter Jones probably didn't show up at the Crawdaddy and that he never wrote any report on the Record Mirror dated April 21st.

This also means that Norman Jopling visited the Crawdaddy early April and his article been published almost three weeks later.

Does it work?

Just to add a further complication.

Supposing that Norman Jopling went to Richmond one week before ALO, the date should be Sunday April 14.

This is not the same date that the Beatles went to meet the Stones for the first time?

mmmmmh!!!


According to Roy Carr, Peter Jones went to the Crawdaddy the same day of Gomelsky shooting (April 21st) and then informed Norman Jopling.

In Bill's book Rolling with the Stones, peter Jones was introduced to the Stones on day 21st, during the shootings of Gomelsky movie. Then he writes that on day 28 they met both Easton and ALO.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-28 14:09 by straycat58.

>> This means that Peter Jones probably didn't show up at the Crawdaddy <<

well, it doesn't really mean he *never* went - just that Jopling went before he did.
people do seem to recall Jones being there the day Giorgio made that film - Bill and James Phelge both mention him.

>> This also means that Norman Jopling visited the Crawdaddy early April <<

Jopling may have been there in march, for all we know; he may have gone there several times.
we don't know at this point if he was there the same day the Beatles turned up, but he could've been, why not?

>> and his article been published almost three weeks later. <<

was his article that was in the Record Mirror dated may 11th the first one he wrote?
in Off the Record Paytress says it was, but i don't know what Paytress is basing that on.
it might also be that Jopling was writing his article before Jones saw the Stones,
but that after seeing them for himself, Jones (who was the editor of Record Mirror)
had Jopling rewrite/expand his article, sent him back with a photographer, etc.

all of the above is pure speculation, of course! for me it "works" - the trouble is finding hard evidence.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-17 23:20 by with sssoul.

Just found another information.
The book of Terry Rawlings & Keith Badman "Good times bad times" reports that on April 21st, the band just mimed at the Crawdaddy the two tracks recorded on April 20 for the movie of Gomelski. This doesn't mean that, after the shootings, there's been a regular gig.

the film was done in the afternoon, right? that's why they didn't play the Ken Colyer Club that day.
Bill's book indicates that there was a regular Crawdaddy gig in the evening after the filming,
and Phelge (pages 107-108) writes about how packed the place was that evening.

Back to the Norman Jopling article, he writes that the band had met the stones the week before (april) and also about the incoming Come on single (may).
Seems he must have re-worked the article for a couple of weeks between 21st and the end of the first week of May.
The pix on the article made by Bill Williams belongs to the 4 pix set available of the Stones at the Crawdaddy and are probably the only ones existing with the 6 members formation.

straycat58, Good Times Bad Times is another book i haven't got -
were Terry Rawlings and/or Keith Badman present at the Crawdaddy that day, or are they quoting someone?

What became of the film? This is the first I've heard about it.

James Karnbach has apparently seen it, so i guess it's in "collectors' circles".
Bill mentions it in Rolling With the Stones (page 56) if you have that ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-28 18:02 by with sssoul.

Not So Much Help > Jeremy Pascall>Hamlyn '77 > The RS

with sssoul asked,

"and while i'm here: does anyone here own the early version of James Phelge's book, called Phelge's Stones?
i only have the later one, called Nankering With the Stones, and i'm curious whether there are many differences."

I have some copies of this book(a fun read). What would you like to know?

>> I have some copies of this book(a fun read). What would you like to know? <<

thank you for caring, filstan! basically i want to know if there are many differences
between that early edition and the later Nankering With edition,
especially in the dating of events in the april/may 63 period we're pondering here.
i think Nankering With came out shortly after Bill published Rolling With the Stones
(so the title is a sort of play on Bill's) and i wonder if Phelge and Bill consulted/coordinated their dates at all.
(between Stone Alone and Rolling With, Bill altered some of the dates he gives for things,
and it seems likely that that was due to input from/consultations with other eyewitnesses.)

and/or a short form of what i'd like to know might be: if you have more than one copy of Phelge's Stones -
the early edition, i mean - could you be coaxed into selling one of them so i can pore over the details myself? :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-06-17 23:23 by with sssoul.

I am off to Sox-Bucs game. You can email me at filstan1@msn.com

thank you kindly, filstan! i shall do that - enjoy the game