This thread concerning Keith's fingers and arthritis or whatever...
comes as an extension on a current thread leading with a really great pic of keith in full character make-up on the film set...
i noticed his fingers and was alarmed and commented...then an exchange developed a little and i didn't think it fair netiquette to hijack that most excellent pic and talk in that thread: sooo...it went like this...
(this post is a bit long, i apologize, but each graph should go quickly and simply, hopefully; ty in advance for reading...
His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a pic of his hands on a rather famous
> guitar...
>
> [img.photobucket.com]
> guitars/fender_teles/2005micawber.jpg



oh man, i captured that to my pic file, rotated it so it was horizontal, then zoomed in on his left hand...ohmygod HM, i wish i had never seen that...whew!! that's tuff stuff...seems mostly to that index finger, but jeesh, still...holy moly.
__ __ __ __

12 midnight pst. as monday turns to tues. may 8th.

i went back to that pic HM posted of keith fingering a common chord on micawber.
it's pretty good resolution (HIS is, i''m not sure about the resolution on my copy posted pictorially here,) so after rotating i could zoom up bigger than life-size scale, put my own fingers up, and get it close to what i would imagine was life-size...(keith's hands are probably smaller than mine) but i had an excellent close up view and it literally made me sick and scared...seriously...

it's like traumatizing...u can make fun of me if you want but i am not even kidding...it's like looking at x-rays of someone you love in your family as the doctor brings them out, or something...it is that mangled...each EACH and every joint on every finger looks swollen and significantly disfigured, and it breaks my heart and makes me sick...

...and i'm not usually very squeamish...been thru a lot of stuff and alla that...it just seemed so mangled, it brought out every distress instict in me; almost parental, tho he's got more than ten years on me...i am amazed he plays so well, recent versions of angie (on acoustic nylon during live licks tour) and also on abb, show a beautiful dexterity he still can display...

...and i know for a fact he can wrangle all kinds of shit out of his ax if he's tuned in and focused and goes for it...he's still a dangerous tiger as far as i'm concerned...so i'm not writing him off...tho his playing some of these thousands of nights...has been 'on' and 'off' to be kind...
(interesting theory of withsssoul's, from another thread) that it would be like keith to perform an arrangement of sftd he didn't like in an abrasive almost resentful way...) very keithian indeed and hearing the theory made me smile, keith is an emotional man after all...hee heee
but also, just not being ON some nights...

this puts a different perspective on me...i've had a bad crush injury accident effecting my leg and left knee, and a bunch of breaks, each of which has nealed nicely, except i have to brace the knee sometimes, as the meniscetomy didn't work, there was nothing to sew back together, it was shredded and had to be vacuumed out and i get a little degenerative knocking about sometimes (tho i can still dance!!) anyway, i've had days, where old unseen crush injuries and internal arthritic pain has floored me dysfunctional without meds, which have their own side effects to deal with...

so i can't imagine what he must feel sometimes, if they inject cortizone right in there sometimes like they do football players...and as i had done a few times until the surgeon said continued doses would be cumulatively destructive to viable remaining tissues...but at certain points, i wanted out of pain, even if for only a few hours...and we went that route for a while...

i mean what to do if anything? i imagine they'd keep this private, and perhaps i should as well...
but it's heartbreaking to see...and he's quite the ultra-hero for pressing on, and when focused playing on with such fire and feeling and even delicacy...a rare treasure...

this is a nightmare to see my beautiful young lad all gnarled like this in the fingers...the bald don't bug me, the wrinkles don't bug me...the age and bits of kind mellowness don't bug me, quite the opposite...the muffified, ossified swollen hard, seemingly permanently disfigurements in in AT LEAST 8 essential joint in that one hand...my really sick making; sorry to wuss out on you...
i love the guy and love the guy more with time...

...but this freaks me out...sorry to be such a wuss about it...i'll probably erase this...a little embarassing to go on about it...probably tweaking my own insecurities and projecting...cause he seems happy and is working...
...but you know what i mean anyone?
caoture it and zoom it lifesize if you dare...the damage is stunning and he dosen't even look particularly inflamed that day!!!!!!

photo courtesty of HisMajesty...i lifted it from the thread that starts with the cool pirate pic. hope u don't mind...(and link he posted, with the original pic, is also re-posted here fyi)
any comments, stories, information, opinions guesses or impressions appreciated. ty. sorry for the longass rant.

sure hope this ain't bad netiquette but i noticed two posters made comments on the 'who's your daddy' thread which started this discussion, and which i am loathe to hijack, so i am reposting their comments, without their permission but hopefully, they will not mind, and i can erase them if they do...

Re: Who's your daddy
Posted by: fiftyamp (IP Logged)
Date: May 8, 2007 09:49


with sssoul Wrote:
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> Keith's a hard-workin man.
> not to prolong the highjack but since there are
> folks who haven't noticed it before:
> those swellings are known as Heberden's nodes (or
> Bouchard's nodes when they're on the mid-finger
> joint);
> you can google that and read more than you ever
> wanted to know about the condition.
> apparently these nodes aren't always nonstop
> painful, but ... yeah, Keith's hands
> give the phrase "guitar hero" new meaning.
>
> sweet photo, mofur - thanks for posting it.

Not familiar with the condition, but as a guitar player I know my hands. If Keef's fingers were as painful as they look, their is NO WAY he could still play at the level and consistency that he does.


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Re: Who's your daddy
Posted by: with sssoul (IP Logged)
Date: May 8, 2007 10:18


... okay, i'm not all that familiar with it either, but from what i've read about it:
apparently the nodes are painful while they're forming, but in many/most cases they don't hurt that much once they're there.
they do restrict movement. and Keith carries on regardless.

I don't know any more about Keith's fingers than any other casual observer...but a lot of folks seem to think that it's a new or recent issue.

Keith's fingers have [visually at least] been in substantially the same condition for a good number of years. It's just that more attention seems to have been drawn to it of late.
FWIW, from personally knowing one or two similarly afflicted players... although it's an annoyance, It probably doesn't impact to much on Keith's style of playing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-08 10:32 by Spud.

the photo was actually originally provided by the gallant open-g (HM re-posted my re-post of it).
i'm sorry you're freaking, Beely; as Spud notes this is not that new, but if folks haven't noticed before
maybe it's time they did, so ... thank you Beely. Keith's hands are very eloquent, and worth thinking about.
and if pondering them is painful/distressing ... try the What Would Keith Do approach.

that's what a real guitar hero looks like.
all kinds of love & joy & blessings & well-being on Keith, and all the Stones.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-05-19 15:26 by with sssoul.

Keiths hands and knuckles are definitely deteriorating.
How can someone say they've been like this for sometime?
It didn't just happen overnight, sadly it's a slow process that will
never get better...only worse.

This explains his recent guitar playing...simple riffs, mainly rhythm, and missing notes left and right.
His mind may want to play it right, but his knuckles are a major stumbling block.
Thats why people tend to say that Ronnie is shining so brightly lately,
he's taken over most of the guitar parts, while Keith poses.

They've been substantially like they are for knocking on ten years. There are loads of pictures available which show it.

Most of Keith's sloppier playing IMHO is down to him concentrating more on "performing" than playing. You don't hear him playing many bum notes when he's standing studiously at the back...they all come out when he's stalking the front of the stage and grinning at the punters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-08 18:07 by Spud.

In my eyes they seem to be getting worse.
His index finger looks the size a golf ball.
One can only wonder what they will look like now.

strange that the one thing that might actually stop Keith is arthritis and not his life style......

ablett Wrote:
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> strange that the one thing that might actually
> stop Keith is arthritis and not his life
> style......


wheel him out anyway, with Blondie filling in, behind the curtains

well ... it might be interesting to ponder what adjustments in his playing it's entailed,
but "simple riffs and mainly rhythm" isn't one of them - that's only one aspect of Keith's playing,
but it's been one of his claims to fame for about 38 years.

while it's true that the nodes were already apparent ten years ago, it's also true that they've gotten larger.
if you read about the condition, though, it's not like they keep growing endlessly.
in some interview a few years ago he referred to them as his hammerheads ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-08 18:51 by with sssoul.

with sssoul wrote

"while it's true that the nodes were already apparent ten years ago, it's also true that they've gotten larger.
if you read about the condition, though, it's not like they keep growing endlessly.
in some interview a few years ago he referred to them as his hammerheads ..."

I wouldn't argue with that at all.
My point is essentially that keith has played plenty of really good guitar since having this fairly long standing problem [including very recently]...and his less good performances probably have little to do with it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-08 19:09 by Spud.

>> My point is essentially that Keith has played plenty of really good guitar
since having this fairly long standing problem [including very recently]. <<

thank you Spud.

Spud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My point is essentially that keith has played
> plenty of really good guitar since having this
> fairly long standing problem ...and his less good
> performances probably have little to do with it.


Hmmm...sounds like you're in denial.

It's common knowledge that arthritis is very debilitating,
It's like wrapping giant rubber bands around your knuckles,
obviously you will lose some of your skills.
To say it has nothing to do with his inferior playing is ludicrous.

I still love Keith and the Stones, but to watch him suffer like this is sad.
Hopefully it won't get any worse as withssoul mentioned.

It is actually somewhat ironic that Keith's relatively simplistic style is what has enabled him to continue for so long with his arthritis. Had he been a highly technical player, relying on speed and acrobatic finger dexterity, a la Jimmy Page or Johnny Winter, his deterioration would be much more obvious, and it would be doubtful he would be able to carry on. Fortunately, Keith relies more on his famous personalized style, feel, and emotive playing. He could have only a stub of one finger remaining, and still be able to play much of his trademark rhythmic riffs. Carry on, Keith!

Thanks for the thread and the posts, it's a really bad sight those fingers, amazing that he play the guitar night after night despite of the arthritis, who other than Keith would do that ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-08 20:38 by Erik_Snow.

His drinking might be more explainable and comprehensive
with this as a back ground.

On these pics, posted, if I got it right, some good two years ago,
we get a good look at his fingers, especially on the second one.



I'm not capable of judging whether the new pictures are worse then these.
But I still suspect the difference from morning to evening might be as big
as the variations over time?

the photo Beelyboy posted at the start of the thread is from september 2005.
the ones above were published in Q magazine early in 2005, so they're probably from late 04.
(the one on the left is by Jason Joyce; the one on the right is by Neil Gavin.)
all kinds of blessings on the man, and thanks & praises.

I have arthritis in my hands very similar to Keith's. Those nodes grow over time and like someone stated, while they're active it hurts the most but once they're dormant you mainly deal with stiffness and limited motion. There are very good medications out there for this condition that almost alleviate the pain completely. For example, I have been taking Celebrex for several years, it's about the best stuff out there since they took Vioxx off the market and it really works well without any real side effects. I'm sure Keith takes something similar and he should be ok to play in his style as long as the weather is warm and dry. How he ever managed to play that Chicago show I'll never know though.

Someone mentioned a difference in size of the nodes between morning and night. Not so, they don't change during the course of a day. The only time they get larger is when you have another active outbreak and that you know because of the increased discomfort.

Have a look at the well-known photo of Mick and Keith smoking on the stairs of Chichester court house after the Redlands bust. You'd be surprised!

Is Keith's arthritis confirmed?????????????????????????

I'm absolutely not sure that he's got arthritis!

JJHMick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have a look at the well-known photo of Mick and
> Keith smoking on the stairs of Chichester court
> house after the Redlands bust. You'd be surprised!

Can someone post this pic please?

Red Herrings there I think ;^).

Thru & Thru's comments echo those of my mate who has the same thing.

Nobody would dispute the fact that Keith has, in recent years, developed this condition... which must impact to some degree on technical aspects of his playing. There are probably things he could once do but now can't. There are similarly elements to his playing that are more tasteful and effective now than ever.
He's obviously adapted to it and it's not,suddenly, a big deal.
Keith makes no attempt to hide it and never appears to be shy of shaking hands, using his hands normally or exposing them to the elements.[All or any of which would be more likely if the condition was a majorly painful or debilitating issue for him].
I still contend that on those occasions where his playing doesn't quite hit the spot...it's got little to do with his fingers and more to do with his "wing it" attitude and the mood he's in.

[Chicago notwithstanding. I couldn't have played in that..and my hands are fine !]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-09 15:55 by Spud.

Thing is he's had those fingers since the 70s but they're worse now.

fingers crossed they get through the tour in one piece



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-09 15:55 by Adrian-L.

Edith Grove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JJHMick Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Have a look at the well-known photo of Mick and
> > Keith smoking on the stairs of Chichester court
> > house after the Redlands bust. You'd be
> surprised!
>
> Can someone post this pic please?
Hi EdithGrove , as I don't know how to post a picture here, I mailed it to you.

>> he's had those fingers since the 70s <<

LoFL: he's had those fingers since 1943! the nodes are a more recent development.
i don't know how 1967 got into the conversation, but if anyone wants a good look for some reason:


- 1967, courtesy of London Features International

>> There are probably things he could once do but now can't. There are similarly elements to his playing
that are more tasteful and effective now than ever. He's obviously adapted to it and it's not suddenly a big deal. <<

thank you Spud. it's also maybe worth pointing out that on another thread yesterday
people were going on about how splendid his playing was in the late 90s,
when this condition was most likely causing him a lot more physical pain than it is now.

>> Keith makes no attempt to hide it <<

i'd even say that since 2005 he seems to be making a point of showing his hands more in photos -
the promo shots for ABB, for example, featured them real prominently.
maybe he got tired of people sneaking surreptitious looks at them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-09 19:01 by with sssoul.

I remember those shots.
Ironically, didn't he have a great big sticking plaster on one finger when those shots were taken? [and a pair of green DMs on his feet ?]

[I've only had my fingers since 1959 ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-09 19:12 by Spud.

His fingers look fine in the '67 photo, but the tone of his skin looks like a cadaver.

JJHMick Wrote:
-
> Hi EdithGrove , as I don't know how to post a
> picture here, I mailed it to you.

Thank you very much !