Yes there are...listen...

JR

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The session takes feature the slide right up front
> and it is anything, but well played for the
> majority of the takes.
>
> Same goes for the Surrey Rehearsals, we hear lots
> of slide on that, but it's all ragged as hell.
> Mick Jagger is playing some of it.
>
> None of the aforementioned slide playing is of
> Brian's standard.
>
> It is clear from the CD that whoever is doing the
> counting in is playing the slide, and the person
> we hear doing just that is Keith.


I gotta get a hold of these outtakes. If the slide on the outtakes indeed sounds similar to the released version of JSP, then a case can definitely be made that Keith is the one! If the slide during the outtakes don't resemble that on the released version, then Brian was probably brought in to overdub his slide. From what I have read, it seems Jimmy Miller went out of his way to have Brian contribute to Beggars and knowing he was not getting along with the Glimmer Twins, had him come in separately to do overdubs. That's why Mick Jagger can't remember Brian contributing to the album, because he wasn't there when everybody else was. Anyway, I gotta get a hold of those outtakes!

stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes there are...listen...
>
> JR

Lets take this step by step...

I've separated each speaker from the stereo mix for the exact same section of the song.

This is the slide guitar played by Keith Richards. Taken from the right speaker and brought into the centre by me.

[www.esnips.com]

This is a woodwind instrument most likely played by Brian. Taken from the left speaker and brought into the centre by me. Are you hearing this as a secondary slide part?

[www.esnips.com]

The only other instruments heard in the song are acoustic guitar, piano, bass and drums.

EDIT: The "woodwind instument" I mention above is infact a MKII Mellotron using the flute sound.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-30 04:28 by His Majesty.

That's definitely some kind of mellotron/keyboard in the left channel, not a second slide guitar.

But all that stuff going on in the right channel could easily be two seperate overdubbed slide guitar tracks.

Most of us also know that the final released 'take' of the slide track may very well be (and most likely is) a composite of any number of solid takes by Keith, Brian, or both punched and/or faded in/out to make one 'pefect' sounding track.

As for the 'sloppy' slide playing on the Satanic Sessions CD, it's quite obvious the focus of these takes is getting the rythmn section and piano part down solid.

However, it's also pretty clear that whoever is playing the slide guitar has pretty much worked the parts out -- or at least the idea behind those parts. It also appears that the lower-toned licks are played much cleaner throughout.

I'd assume with all that stiudo chatter, and the prominence of the slide guitar on these recordings, that whoever is playing would definitely be heard making a comment or receiving a direction. Brian's voice and/or name is never mentioned. Keith is heard throughout.

It would make sense that the slide and vocals were overdubbed (In L.A. later that year no doubt) so the changes could be better timed with the finished rhythm
track. And the mellotron was obviously an idea for filling out the number.

J

Listen to the MONO, and then lets talk...definately slide....

JR

stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Listen to the MONO, and then lets
> talk...definately slide....
>
> JR

I knew you'd pull that and I say bullshit! I've heard the mono mix and it doesn't have any additional instrumentation compared to the stereo mix.

Oh god...Lets just stop...You must be a George Bush fan...

JR

JMARKO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's definitely some kind of mellotron/keyboard
> in the left channel, not a second slide guitar.
>
> But all that stuff going on in the right channel
> could easily be two seperate overdubbed slide
> guitar tracks.


Nah, the slide part is 'nearly' there for the final take on that cd. The whole track is much slower etc, so there was obviously a bit more work to do before the released take was achieved... plenty of time to get the slide nailed!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-30 04:13 by His Majesty.

stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh god...Lets just stop...You must be a George
> Bush fan...
>
> JR

No, you simply can't back up your claims. I've clearly shown what is what on that track, there is no other added stuff for the mono mix.

Listen to what I posted.

stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Listen to the MONO, and then lets
> talk...definately slide....
>
> JR


John, you know you're wrong, so just stop it. There is only one slide part on the song, no matter if you listen to the mono or stereo versions. The article you showed is full of mistakes, and you know it too.

Further, stylistically the slide is nothing like Brian ever played. Brian either played short little runs on one string in standard tuning, or he would slide full chords in open E or D tuning. The slide you hear on JSP has all little double stops and turn arounds Keith used so much later on in open G tuning. On this slide part you hear the influence of people like Taj Mahal.

If Brian would have played this slide, it would have been much more precise, to the point and much more bluesy.

Mathijs

And to add: we have keith Richgards stating in 1989 that he put te slide part on JSP. Now we all know keih sometimes makes history a little more interesting once in while, but I never heard the man claim he played something that he actually didn't play.

In my opinion, the case is closed.

Mathijs

The high instrument on ther second music sample. the very prominent one is being called a woodwind?
It's a keyboard.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-30 03:03 by ChelseaDrugstore.

Actually, I take back the no mellotron thing completely as the notes used on the song have a resonance that is exactly the same as those particular notes on the flute sound from a MKII.

Clever use of the pitch wheel and with loads of echo and ta da!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-30 03:12 by His Majesty.

"I rest my case!
Uh, oh, case on the rocks.
Eh, I mean, this case is closed!"

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The high instrument on ther second music sample.
> the very prominent one is being called a
> woodwind?
> It's a keyboard.

Until I checked out my mellotron sample library, I thought it may have been some kind of woodwind instrument. I even recorded a quick clip using a recorder as an example of how it can be achieved.

[www.esnips.com]

But no doubt about it, it is MKII Mellotron using the flute sound with tons of echo.

I'm loving this thread! Amazing Amazing song, and I'm really enjoying listening to these esnips. Thanks for posting them.

Wasn't looking too good, but I was feeling real well.

Here's a very quick clip in which I added the mellotron part using my MKII flute samples. I don't own a keyboard at the moment so I had to place each note and edit it's length to match the recorded version hence the shortness!

[www.esnips.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-30 23:59 by His Majesty.

neptune Wrote:

> I gotta get a hold of these outtakes. If the
> slide on the outtakes indeed sounds similar to the
> released version of JSP, then a case can
> definitely be made that Keith is the one!

Here's what is labelled on the CD as Take 12:

[www.esnips.com]

I have a problem. For the last 20 years I believed it's Keith on bass. Listening to the 14 takes of JSP, I still believe it is Keith on bass. The phrasing, the pumping (listen to take three between 2:10 and 3:28), the little notes on the on-beat: it's all very much like keith plays bass.

The sound is 100% Fender Jazz bass sound -the Sympathy sound- a bass that Wyman never ever played as his hands are too small. I hear a guitarist playing bass -fluid, pushing the band forwards instead of lagging behind. Listen to the start of take 13: that's not Wyman on bass. It's way too fast, way too fluid. Compare this bass to the bass of Pretty Beat Up, it's the same phrasing. Listening to the takes I can see keith directing the song as a bassist, and not as a slide player.

I actually see Brian hidden away in an isolation booth. The slide playing sounds terrible on the outtakes. They are amateuristic, awkward, and ill performed. I play like this after a bottle of vodka. On the outtakes the slides actually sounds much more like a stoned out Brian than Keith directing the band with a slide...

Also, I hear Jagger (probably with acoustic guitar), Watts and Richards talking, as well as an engineer through the intercom, but I don't hear Wyman, nor Jones speak.

Listening to the outakes I see the band as they are recording Sympathy in One+One, with Jones strung out in an isolation booth trying to play slide.

If Keith indeed plays bass, it must be Jones on slide.

Mathijs

It does sound like Keith on bass to me and to be honest it sounds more like Brian on slide just a little sloppy. Kind of a bit like how he played on Rock n Roll Circus.

I agree it's the precision, but I don't hear the same kind of attacking style that is Keith's bass style on the outtakes, it still has a Wyman like feel to it imo. I also thought it was Keith on the released version. Perhaps Keith showed Bill what to play!?

Wyman can be heard talking, I'll search out the time etc.

Something to listen for though, on a few occasions the band mess up and whoever is playing the slide kind of stops the band promptly by playing loudly. Track 5 26 seconds or so as one example.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-01 00:01 by His Majesty.

Here's Bill playing what appears to be Keith's Precison bass during the 1968 September/October rehearsal photographed by Ethan Russell.




Keith with same bass



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-01 04:45 by His Majesty.

I don't remember whether Keith played a precision or a jazz, but the sound is distinctly Fender bass. Bill has stated in an interview that the band always wanted him to play a Fender bass because they were easier to record than his own basses, but he just couldn't play Fender basses due to the scale length -until the Mustang bass came allong in '69.

I listened to it again and again, and it truly sounds like Keith on bass. If you listen to all tracks with Wyman on bass on the Satanic box set he sounds so much different than the bass on JSP.

Mathijs

Keith played a Precision, see the pic above with Bill, looks like it?

I still think the bass on the out takes has a lazy feel in the phrasing, that is different to how Keith plays very similar lines during the Sympathy sessions, but the sound is there for obvious reasons.

The attack on Bills bass from the 2000 man sessions on that box set isn't that far removed from the finished release of Jigsaw Puzzle etc. It's not like Bill can't play bass!

Fender Precision into a Vox solid state Foundation Bass head with the 18" cab is bound to produce a good punchy sound.

The person playing slide really seems to be directing the band though, many times you'll hear Keith count in, they start and he'll stop them with the guitar thumping etc. The ends of track 2 and 3 are other examples of this.

Don't forget, Keith himself has said he plays the slide!

Here's Keith talking about it... [www.esnips.com]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-30 21:33 by His Majesty.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Keith indeed plays bass, it must be Jones on
> slide.


Mathijs, are you serious here? You have vehemently denied it's Jones playing slide on JSP for years. That would be quite an admission on your part.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If Keith indeed plays bass, it must be Jones on
> > slide.
>
>
> Mathijs, are you serious here? You have
> vehemently denied it's Jones playing slide on JSP
> for years. That would be quite an admission on
> your part.

I'm sure he's serious!

BUT there's enough evidence telling us Keith plays slide! And not that much telling us it isn't Bill on bass.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's what is labelled on the CD as Take 12:


Thanks HM. I appreciate that. That was interesting, but my mind has not been changed. As Mathijs stated, that sounds like Brian isolated in some closed-off booth, perhaps a little boozed up and stoned, playfully working out his slide part to fit the song. Let's not forget that, by early 1968, Brian had not played guitar for years and he was a little rusty after the long layoff. Even his slide on No Expectations is somewhat messy, a far cry from LRR and I Can't Be Satisfied. As for Keith saying in 1989 that he played the slide on JSP, well, Keith is notorious for his lack of good memory . . .

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't forget, Keith himself has said he plays the
> slide!


Here's Keith on JSP:

"I um . . . um . . . um . . . played the slide . . .um . . . um . . . and I maybe played the acoustic, I think . . . yeah . . . I played the slide . . . and . . . um . . . Mick wrote it . . . um . . . um . . . um . . . I was kind of . . of . . . um . . . like a session musician."


What? Maybe played the acoustic? The guy can't even remember if he played the acoustic. Hello Keith! Of course you played the acoustic! C'mon, HM, are you going to take this interview seriously? Keith probably did not even know what song he was talking about.

neptune Wrote:

>
> Thanks HM. I appreciate that. That was
> interesting, but my mind has not been changed. As
> Mathijs stated, that sounds like Brian isolated in
> some closed-off booth, perhaps a little boozed up
> and stoned, playfully working out his slide part
> to fit the song. Let's not forget that, by early
> 1968, Brian had not played guitar for years and he
> was a little rusty after the long layoff. Even
> his slide on No Expectations is somewhat messy, a
> far cry from LRR and I Can't Be Satisfied. As for
> Keith saying in 1989 that he played the slide on
> JSP, well, Keith is notorious for his lack of good
> memory . . .

When and where has he ever claimed have played something he hasn't?

If Brian is supposedly so stoned why then is the slide player stopping the band right on queue whenever Keith shouts out? Keith counts in, bang the slide is there, Keith shouts out and the slide is right on with Keith's voice and directions.

Rather than the sound of someone stoned, to me it's more the sound of someone new to slide, but still confident in actually playing guitar.

Mathijs' change of opinion is on the basis that it's Keith on bass. But other than the sound which is most likely a Fender precision bass, there really isn't anything in what is played that Bill hasn't done elsewhere.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Don't forget, Keith himself has said he plays
> the
> > slide!
>
>
> Here's Keith on JSP:
>
> "I um . . . um . . . um . . . played the slide . .
> .um . . . um . . . and I maybe played the
> acoustic, I think . . . yeah . . . I played the
> slide . . . and . . . um . . . Mick wrote it . . .
> um . . . um . . . um . . . I was kind of . . of
> . . . um . . . like a session musician."
>
>
> What? Maybe played the acoustic? The guy can't
> even remember if he played the acoustic. Hello
> Keith! Of course you played the acoustic! C'mon,
> HM, are you going to take this interview
> seriously? Keith probably did not even know what
> song he was talking about.

Am I supposed to take that post seriously?

He doesn't say it like that, take the facts. jezus!!!

"I played the slide guitar on there... and eh, me with the acoustic as well and then the slide".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-01 04:02 by His Majesty.