While reading the book " the making of Let it Bleed" by Sean Egan, I came accros a remark that the piano on Ruby Tuesday is not played by Brian Jones as I have always thought, but that it is played by Jack Nitzche. I checked all ABKCO releases I own, and indeed, Mr. Nitzsche is credited for playing the keyboards on this song, as is on Let's Spend the Night Together and Paint it Black.

I guess Jones' sitting behind the piano on the Top of the Pops playback could have had us mislead for all those years. If it is indeed true, it does make it less likely that Jones (partially) wrote this song, as is claimed by Marianne Faithfull.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-09 18:22 by Mathijs.

He co wrote Ruby Tuesday with Keith. He plays recorder on RT. Marianne hasnt said anything about LSTNT.

Oh I do believe he had a big hand in writing Ruby Tuesday. Just my feeling...but it's a good one. He plays the recorder and some other flute. Or at least he blows on something else. Then Bill and Keith play the Double Bass. I always though Keith played the piano because it is such an odd piano figure; like it's not written by an accomplished piano player. The more I think about it, the more I realize that everyhting about that song is odd. The acoustic guitar too.
Actually Melanie's cover version is the version that makes the most sense in a Hallmark kind of way.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

Hi Mathijs, it has been my understanding that Keith wrote this song. I beleive Mick has said as much in interviews I've read through the years. I've always assumed that Keith wrote the song on piano, as opposed to the guitar, due to the chord structure. Ever noticed Keith palying piano on Ruby Tuesday on Ed Sullivan? I've always felt this was somewhat telling.

I've always guessed that Marianne's comment on Brian's help in writing this was just her conjunture that Brian's recorder is prominent and that perhaps the arrangement with the instument was his. Of course, this doesn't qualify as co-authoriship of the song itself.

Speaking of who wrote what....I would love a thread to be started that lets us see who wrote what song. Actually a website listing every song written by the Stones listing who wrote what, where, and when, would be ideal. Of course this can become confusing and complicated, as there are so many variables: For instance, we know Kieth wrote Ruby Tuesday and the melody, but my guess would be that Mick wrote at least some of the lyrics. I still would put this song down in the Keith column as his song. We know that Mick wrote Brown Sugar in 1969 in Australia, but perhaps Keith came up with the open g guitar phrase that starts the song. But I would still give this song to Mick. So you could have songs written by both Mick and Keith, songs by mostly Mick, songs written mostly by Keith, songs written by Mick with help from say Billy Preston (Miss You), songs written by Ron Wood with help on the lyrics by Mick (Hey Negrita), etc.

The best way to research this would be actual interviews through the years where we hear it from Mick and / or Keith as to who wrote a particular song. Another way is to make educated guesses as to whom wrote a song. For instance, ever noticed how Mick has always favored writing songs in F and C? "You Can't Always Get What You Want" for example? I'm in a band, and for years we had fun learning a Beatles song and then figuring out who wrote what part of a particular song. After a while it was easy to see, just based on what chords were used, that it was John's middle 8, or Paul's melody, or Paul's middle 8, or all John or all Paul.

Hopefully someone (perhaps this site) could start a web page listing who we know wrote a particluar song, or who our best guess would be. Anyhow, a buddy asked me over the weekend who wrote Rocks Off and who wrote Rip This Joint....I couldn't answer, perhaps someone on this board knows? Thank you in advance!

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While reading the book " the making of Let it
> Bleed" by Sean Egan, I came accros a remark that
> the piano on Ruby Tuesday is not played by Brian
> Jones as I have always thought, but that it is
> played by Jack Nitzche. I checked all ABKCO
> releases I own, and indeed, Mr. Nitzsche is
> credited for playing the keyboards on this song,
> as is on Let's Spend the Night Together and Paint
> it Black.
>
> I guess Jones' sitting behind the piano on the Top
> of the Pops playback could have had us mislead for
> all those years. If it is indeed true, it does
> make it less likely that Jones (partially) wrote
> this song, as is claimed by Marianne Faithfull.
>
> Mathijs


I've never seen the TOTP playback of Ruby Tuesday - have you? They did film it at the same time as they did LSTNT (where Brian is sitting at the piano) but the clip that's in circulation of THAT song comes from the Christmas rebroadcast.

I wouldnt assume he had nothing to do with the composition based solely on that. Thats him on recorder, so at least he's on the record.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-09 19:13 by Gazza.

Since the Stones have written so many songs in a different manner; ie as a band in the past I think it would be difficult sometimes to determine authorship of songs. I too would love to see a breakdown of all those Aftermath", "Buttons" songs. Like who wrote "take it or leave it"? Or who wrote "Complicated"? Who came up with those ragtime ideas of "Cool Calm", "Something Happened to Me" and "On with the Show"?
Pity that the Stones will never give the type of interview like Lennon did a couple of times when he was asked tune by tune and he actually had an answer for everyone. The Stones either don't remember, don't care, or don't want to tell.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

LA FORUM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He co wrote Ruby Tuesday with Keith.

well, the only claim to this statement is by Marianne Faithfull. All other claims by keith, Bill, Glyn Johns and Jagger are that keith wrote the song.

The point is: I have always thought there could be some truth in Faithfull's claim as Brian plays the two defining instruments: the piano and the recorder. But if indeed Jack Nitzsche plays the piano, Brian's part in the song becomes a typical Brian Jones part: a beautiful addition on a not very often used instrument, on a very beautiful song written by Jagger and/or Richards.

> Marianne hasnt said anything about LSTNT.

Just as I didn't.

Mathijs

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pity that the Stones will never give the type of
> interview like Lennon did a couple of times when
> he was asked tune by tune and he actually had an
> answer for everyone. The Stones either don't
> remember, don't care, or don't want to tell.


In fairness, with Lennon and McCartney, its a lot easier to figure out who the principlay or sole songwriter was, as in almost all cases (unless they let George or Ringo take the honours) its usually the one who sings it.

True Gazza. Sort of what I mean by Stonestunes being a lot harder to pin down in that respect.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> True Gazza. Sort of what I mean by Stonestunes
> being a lot harder to pin down in that respect.

I guess it is very simple: all songs are Jagger/Richards songs. I truly do not think any addition by Jones, Wyman, Watts or whoever is important enough to grant a credit. In the end, I think it is simple as that.

There's this great outtake of Dandelion (if I remember correctly it's called something like "Sometimes Blue"). To me, Dandelion always was this archetypical Brian Jones song. Now listen to the outtake with Keith on vocals: the entire Dandelion song is already there! No matter what part you add to it, you can add whatever exotic instrument or even a choir of 250 men and women, Keith's song is already comepletely there.

And I guess that must have been really painful for Jones, that he knew his additions sometimes really made the song, but it was never enough to earn a songcredit.

Mathijs

>> For instance, we know Keith wrote Ruby Tuesday and the melody,
but my guess would be that Mick wrote at least some of the lyrics. <<

Mick's stated that he had nothing to do with either the music or the lyrics of Ruby Tuesday,
and there are folks who feel they "know" Brian co-wrote it, just like you feel you "know" it's Keith's work -
which summarizes pretty neatly why a thread listing our guesses as to who wrote what wouldn't be too constructive:
we don't know unless the songwriters tell us, and they hardly ever do.

there's a good section about the MJ/KR collaboration on Ian MacPherson's fine site: [www.timeisonourside.com]

> I guess it is very simple: all songs are
> Jagger/Richards songs. I truly do not think any
> addition by Jones, Wyman, Watts or whoever is
> important enough to grant a credit. In the end, I
> think it is simple as that.
>

And I dont. I said it before, The Glimmers needed to be strong against Beatles and they could not give co credits to Wyman for his riff, Jumpin Jack Flash (today he would have gotten it) or Brian for, let's say Little red rooster, a song he totaly changed from the original song or Ruby Tuesday for adding a signature melody on recorder/flute. How do I know this? Because they give credits to unknown people who write songs with them today (have a look at BT.

Back then they had to be this strong unit, production unit and that's how one should see it. They produce songs and make songs, sometimes co written with Mick Taylor or Ry Cooder, into typical "Stones songs". Songs like IORR, written by Ronnie Wood and Jagger become typical Stones rockers they way Keith or Mick would write them. I think Mick and Keith has written the majority of their songs but I also believe many others have made contributions that are significant and i think the Glimmers have been like a mafia (didnt Keith describe it that way?). People who leave the Stones and seem very bitter. It's fact. And that's alright, they have written so many songs but not without help from other bandmembers and producers. Problem is Keith and Mick seem very anal about this.

In my opinion, Ruby Tuesday features Jack on Piano and Brian on alto recorder.

I believe Brain plays the chordal organ parts on LSTNT.

For what it's worth, that's what Brian played when they toured Europe in spring 1967.

LA FORUM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Problem is Keith and Mick seem very anal about
> this.

Maybe the real problem was that Brian was a slaphead and Jagger/Richards decided not to credit a guy who was totally obsessed with hair implants.

For me its never been about who wrote which song. I've always been curious as to who's guitar I'm hearing on the early songs. For example, who is the lead on 19th Nervous Breakdown or Get Off My Cloud? On most of the early songs you can clearly hear an electric guitar part and an acoustic part. Based on early studio photos, mainly from High Tide & Green Grass I always thought that Brian played the electric parts and Keith played the acoustic....does anyone know? Surely Brian contributed a lot more that a few sitar and piano parts which is all we ever hear about.

pdw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me its never been about who wrote which song.
> I've always been curious as to who's guitar I'm
> hearing on the early songs. For example, who is
> the lead on 19th Nervous Breakdown or Get Off My
> Cloud? On most of the early songs you can clearly
> hear an electric guitar part and an acoustic part.
> Based on early studio photos, mainly from High
> Tide & Green Grass I always thought that Brian
> played the electric parts and Keith played the
> acoustic....does anyone know? Surely Brian
> contributed a lot more that a few sitar and piano
> parts which is all we ever hear about.

Brian plays the Diddley Daddy-esque guitar part on 19th and the repetitive 12 string 'lead' part in cloud.

I'll get shot for this, but basically if the guitar part sounds tricky(apart from slide stuff up to 1968) it's most likely to be Keith! :-()

LA FORUM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I dont. I said it before, The Glimmers needed
> to be strong against Beatles and they could not
> give co credits to Wyman for his riff, Jumpin Jack
> Flash (today he would have gotten it) or Brian
> for, let's say Little red rooster, a song he
> totaly changed from the original song

Huh? Give Brian credit for LLR?

I think you don't seem to understand how song writing credits works. LLR is a plain cover of LLR written by Willie Dixon. If you play a cover you can perform it any way you want, you can ad strings or whatever instrument you want, in the end you can fart the melody: you did not write the song. The only way you can earn song credits is by writing a melody or chord changes. So, if you added a totaly new bridge, chorus or verse you would be able to claim you 'wrote' a part of the song. If you ad a great 15 minute virtuoso solo on slide guitar in open Cminor7: that's great, but you will not get any song writing credits.

> or Ruby
> Tuesday for adding a signature melody on
> recorder/flute.

The recorder does NOT ad a signature melody: it plays the same melody as the piano and vocals, and the cello plays a counter melody to the recorder. Still this doesn't say anything about whom wrote what. It could be that the song is based on Brian's recorder, but this would mean that Brian wrote an entire melody of an entire song on his own, something he has never done in his musical career as far as we fans know. Still, there is only one source claiming brian wrote RT, against numorous claims that Keith wrote it.

> How do I know this? Because they
> give credits to unknown people who write songs
> with them today (have a look at BT.

So they give credit to Ron Wood, Wyman and a dozen of unknown people, but NOT to Brian. This sounds like a conspiracy theory.

> think Mick and Keith has written the majority of
> their songs but I also believe many others have
> made contributions that are significant and i
> think the Glimmers have been like a mafia (didnt
> Keith describe it that way?).

Isn't this because the Glimmer Twins simply write the best songs? I think it's the same as with Lennon/McCartney: how on earth can you compete with these writing teams? Bill Wyman has made a couple of solo albums, and all he shows is that he won't ever to be able to compete with Jagger/Richards.

But in the end, Steve Jordan earned plenty of credits with Keith, Dave Stewart with Jagger, Ron Wood got a dozen songs through with the Stones. But poor old Brian was treated badly....

Mathijs

>> always thought that Brian played the electric parts and Keith played the acoustic....does anyone know? <<

eek - it's not at all as simple as that. smile: you need to check out some more photos,
early footage and/or the line-ups listed on sites like this one: [www.timeisonourside.com]
there are some early tracks where i think no one's sure which of them played what,
but it's not an acoustic/electric division, any more than it's a rhythm/lead division.
some of the simpler observations on the early stuff are: if it's slide it's Brian; the Chuck-Berry-type leads are Keith;
and the "weaving" of the two guitars was a big part of the Stones' early sound
(more on stage than in the studio, probably, but still.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-09 22:11 by with sssoul.

I actually never knew about Brian playing piano on the song until I read it in Bill's book and then I believe he's credited in 40 Licks, too.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While reading the book " the making of Let it
> Bleed" by Sean Egan,

Who the hell is Sean Egan? Was he at the studio when RT was recorded. Anyway, he wrote a book about the making of LIB, so why should he be considered a reliable source for the recoring of RT and who played what?


> I came accros a remark that
> the piano on Ruby Tuesday is not played by Brian
> Jones as I have always thought, but that it is
> played by Jack Nitzche.

That does not prove anything. Many remarks can be erroneous.


> I checked all ABKCO
> releases I own, and indeed, Mr. Nitzsche is
> credited for playing the keyboards on this song,

Keyboards does not equal piano. Right?

neptune Wrote:

> Keyboards does not equal piano. Right?

Keyboards can mean any instrument that has... a keyboard! Piano, Harpsichord, Organ, mellotron etc etc... :-()

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > While reading the book " the making of Let it
> > Bleed" by Sean Egan,
>
> Who the hell is Sean Egan? Was he at the studio
> when RT was recorded. Anyway, he wrote a book
> about the making of LIB, so why should he be
> considered a reliable source for the recoring of
> RT and who played what?

Sean Egan has written one of the absolute best books on the subject of the Stones I have read in the last 10 years, "the Making of LIB". I find his book to be just about as faultless as one can be, and that's why his remark, in a matter-of-fact way, was so remarkable. I then searched all official credits I know of, and they all had Jack Nitzsche as the keyboard player (and keyboard means anything with a keyboard, and as the only keyboard on RT is the piano it means piano in the credits). I was aware Nitzsche played some keyboards on Stones tracks, but I wasn't fully aware that he turned out to be there main piano player at those '66 sessions, more so than Ian Stewart, Brian Jones or Nicky Hopkins. He turns out to playing piano on Down Home Girl, Heart of Stone, Play with Fire, Satisfaction, Paint it Black, Let's Spend the Night, Sister Morphine, Stupid Girl, Out of Time, Take it or Leave it, She Smiled Sweetly, Cool Calm Collected, Whose Been sleeping here, Complicated and many more.

I wasn't aware that Nitzsche was such an integral part of the Stones, playing on three quarters of most of their albums up to Satanic. It would make perfect sense that Nitzsche plays the piano on Ruby Tuesday, as he did so on about all tracks of that era where a piano part was needed. Nitzsche was the Stones keyboard player until Nicky Hokins takes over in '67, it seems.

> > I came accros a remark that
> > the piano on Ruby Tuesday is not played by
> Brian
> > Jones as I have always thought, but that it is
> > played by Jack Nitzche.
>
> That does not prove anything. Many remarks can be
> erroneous.

That's why I checked it with official releases, and they all state Nitzsche.

> > I checked all ABKCO
> > releases I own, and indeed, Mr. Nitzsche is
> > credited for playing the keyboards on this
> song,
>
> Keyboards does not equal piano. Right?

Yes it does. The term keyboards is used to denote a piano part, either an acoustic or an electric form. Harpsichords, synths, organs, Mellotron etc. are all "keyboards", and can be denoted as such in credits.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:

> I wasn't aware that Nitzsche was such an integral
> part of the Stones, playing on three quarters of
> most of their albums up to Satanic. It would make
> perfect sense that Nitzsche plays the piano on
> Ruby Tuesday, as he did so on about all tracks of
> that era where a piano part was needed. Nitzsche
> was the Stones keyboard player until Nicky Hokins
> takes over in '67, it seems.

> Mathijs

That's exactly how I see things, but with Stu coming in for the boogie Woogie stuff on occasion, for example Flight 505. There's various photos of Jack playing piano, harpsichord and organ at stones sessions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-10 00:49 by His Majesty.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> For instance, we know Keith wrote Ruby Tuesday
> and the melody,
> but my guess would be that Mick wrote at least
> some of the lyrics. <<
>
> Mick's stated that he had nothing to do with
> either the music or the lyrics of Ruby Tuesday,
> and there are folks who feel they "know" Brian
> co-wrote it, just like you feel you "know" it's
> Keith's work -
> which summarizes pretty neatly why a thread
> listing our guesses as to who wrote what wouldn't
> be too constructive:
> we don't know unless the songwriters tell us, and
> they hardly ever do.
>
> there's a good section about the MJ/KR
> collaboration on Ian MacPherson's fine site:
> [www.timeisonourside.com]


It's great to read them speak about eachother halfway through the eighties. All those words that are not exactly kind (which is easy) but appreciating and acknoledging, which is much much harder.

Let's put it this way: I believe what I read there. The manner of speaking gives me no reason at all not to believe it.

Jelle

While I have not watched the RT video from the Ed Sullivan show in awhile I dropped it in this afternoon. Brian and Keith are sitting at the piano together and Brian has his recorder to play. They were also singing together on the chorus which was not normal for those guys. I always felt that with Brian and Keith working together in a more friendly in this period that Brian was MORE involved with the song writing process than before or after. As a result BJ was probably actively involved with the creation of Ruby Tuesday. That he received no song writing credit does not mean he didn't contribute greatly to certain tunes. Keith has stated that this was a very creative and happy period between him and Brian before things fell apart. The Stones appearance on Ed Sullivan and their versions of RT and LSTNT show Brian and Keith having fun and interacting together in a way not normally seen with those guys. I believe The Sullivan show video of RT and LSTNT strongly suggests BJ was involved with these songs.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The term keyboards is used to denote
> a piano part, either an acoustic or an electric
> form. Harpsichords, synths, organs, Mellotron etc.
> are all "keyboards", and can be denoted as such in
> credits.

Fine, Nitzsche probably played the piano on RT. I accept that. However, there's the melody line and Brian plays it on his recorder. Keith just strums an acoustic guitar on RT. So, who wrote the melody line? Mick Jagger has long denied any involvement in the creation of this song. That leaves Brian and Keith. Keith admitted in the "Ask Keith" section of his website that he wrote RT entirely. What was STRANGE about his statement about RT was that there was no elaboration, as he used only three sentences to summarize his contribution to the track. On almost every answer to a question (165 of them so far) on his site, Keith is always elaborating via his usual, legendary story-telling skills, filling out at least half a page. But only three sentences for the RT question? Where are the stories and anecdotes? Hmmm . . . very strange indeed. Perhaps Keith feels awkward discussing RT because he knows he co-authored it with Brian?

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> However, there's the melody line and
> Brian plays it on his recorder.

No, that's not correct. In the verses the melody is played by the cello and the vocals, supported by the piano. Brian's recorded plays a beautiful melody that seems to hoover above the song. Sometimes it touches the basic melody, sometimes if lies like birds above the song. Brian's recorder part is both beautiful, and song defining. But he does NOT play the melody.

In the chorus the acoustic guitar enters only to give the song more body. Brian's recorder is missing for the first 8 bars, only to enter at the end, playing the basic melody line.

In my opinion, Brian's recorder is exactly what the genius of Brian Jones is known for: invent and play an encredible part on a not-so-common instrument on a great song written by somebody else. This song comepletely sounds like it is written on an acoustic guitar, and that the vocal melody was present together with some basic chords when the song was introduced to the band. Then the song just evolved from there: first Nitzsche added a piano part, Bill Wyman a bass part, and together with Keith the cello. I bet Brian tried different instruments until he settled on the recorded recorder.

By the way, on the SACD version of The Singles Collection the recorded is barely audible, and Jagger's backup vocals are missing. I find that really strange.

> Keith just strums
> an acoustic guitar on RT. So, who wrote the
> melody line?

Yes. I think Keith invented the vocal melody line. Listen to the outtake of Dandelion: the vocal melody line of the released version is already totally there. But listen to the released version, and the melody line now is played by the harpsichord, played by either Brian or Jack Nitzsche. The same with Under My thumb and let's Spend the Night Together: both are confirmed to be written by Keith, but on UMT Brian plays the main melody on marimba, on Let's Spend Jack Nitzsche plays the main melody on piano. By the way, on the vocal-less outtake of RT keith can clearly be heard directing the band, counting between the verses and chorusses. he clearly was in charge recording the song.

> Mick Jagger has long denied any
> involvement in the creation of this song. That
> leaves Brian and Keith.

No, that leaves keith. Brian is not known to have written any melody, so why suddenly include him on RT?

There's many Stones songs that either one wrote but still is credited to both: Keith didn't have anything to with Sway, Brown Sugar or Moonlight Mile, and still he is credited. That's the agreement jagger and Richards have made, just as Lennon and McCartney made an agreement.

> Keith admitted in the
> "Ask Keith" section of his website that he wrote
> RT entirely. What was STRANGE about his statement
> about RT was that there was no elaboration, as he
> used only three sentences to summarize his
> contribution to the track.

I really don't know. But he has spoken more about RT, that he wrote it in an hotel room in LA in '66, that the subject is a groupie he knew, that he felt a bit down because he was on the road already for so long. That he recorded the cello with Bill. But in the end RT is just a nice ballad, with a nice vocal melody, a nice lyric and a beautiful, defining recorder part by Brian. If you wrote this song in 15 minutes on your hotel room, what's more to say about it?

The thing is: judging on the parts it is hard to say whom wrote what. Brian plays a great addition, but he has done that many more times on numbers that he didn't wrote. We have several statements by Bill Wyman, Charlie Watts, Glyn Johns, and keith himself that keith wrote the song. There is ONE statement by Marianne Faithful that Brian wrote it "as a Skip James blues number". Aside from the fact that RT doesn't sound remotely like anything Skip James has recorded, it's one statement against several other statements.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:

> By the way, on the SACD version of The Singles
> Collection the recorded is barely audible, and
> Jagger's backup vocals are missing. I find that
> really strange.

> Mathijs

I think they put out the wrong mix! :/

with sssoul previously put up a link that explained things better.

What does it say about it in the book Phoenix read, Brian Jones Straight From the Heart?

Rocky Dijon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What does it say about it in the book Phoenix
> read, Brian Jones Straight From the Heart?

That Brian anally raped Keith whilst he bowed double bass... that's why he doesn't give Brian credit, also, Anita was actually a man and sings backing vocals but, never got credit!!!

:-()

It doesn't say that, but that is very much the style of the book. Outlandish claims of muchos bum sex!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-04-10 17:05 by His Majesty.