i'm hoping some of our kind patient knowledgeable and good-lookin British-English-speakin iorrians
would be good enough to tell me something about the meaning, usage and origins of the idiom "to have the bottle to do something".
i ran into it in that early version of Fight and in then again in ALO's book, so i got curious.
i'm *almost* sure it means something like "to have the balls to do something" - is that right?
or is it more like having the good sense to do something, or ... ?

is it used currently? is it used by/about women as well as men? and are the origins of it known?

and if you can stand a couple more: when i google it it seems like 99% of the time it's used in negative sentences,
but is it normal to use it in affirmative sentences too? "he had the bottle to show up two hours early", for example?

thanks for any insights, and have some popcorn.

It's still used and yeah it can mean having the guts, balls or courage etc, but it depends on the context as your last quote shows.

Confusingly, there is also, "he bottled it!" ie he backed out of doing something.

Hmm, I need some popcorn!

[passing popcorn] thank you kindly, HM.
is it used about women as well? for example ... "she had the bottle to confront him in public"?
and do you have any clue where it comes from? it's not rhyming slang, i take it, but ... ?
[scratching head and passing more popcorn]

from wiktionary :

Noun
bottle (bottles)

1. A container, typically made of glass and having a tapered neck, used for holding liquids.
Beer is often sold in bottles.


2. The contents of such a container.
I only drank a bottle of beer.

3. A container with a rubber nipple used for giving liquids to infants.
The baby wants a bottle.

4.(UK) Nerve, courage.
You don't have the bottle to do that!
He was going to ask her out, but he lost his bottle when he saw her.

thanks Gazza! [passing popcorn]

munch munch.....

Fat bastards...

_____________________________________________________

What's your favourite flavour?...........Cherry Red!!

You can use it in the affirmative - most commonly as in X (man or woman) has "got a lot of bottle". Full stop. You can also say X "had the bottle" to do whatever, but I think the negative use is probably more usual. Here's more fascinating food for thought from a cockney rhyming slang page:

What is the origin of the phrase "You haven't got the bottle" as in "You haven't got the nerve". Any ideas?

Jean responds: I am reliably informed that this comes from 'bottle & glass = arse' with arse being the equivalent to 'balls' these days.
Em confirms this answer.
Simon agrees - You ain't got the bottle=You'd shit yourself
Brian has a different idea - he feels this could be a reference to John Courage Amber beer, so the origin would be "bottle of Courage".
And Brian then confuses the issue by saying he heard on Minder someone threaten someone else by saying "...if you think he's bad now, you want to see him when he's lost his bottle". Brian wonders if this could simply be a reference to a babys reaction if you nicked it's bottle.
And John weighs in with: It is from the expression "to lose your bottle", i.e. the contents of your arse.
And David says: Not rhyming slang but more of a reference to the courage or bravery gained from alcohol. i.e.: you need the bottle to do something.
Peter says: In Victorian London a really daring theft, particularly in pick-pocketing, was called a 'whizz'. This became 'bottle', from bottle of fizz (the old term for pop/lemonade). From this, the slang 'bottle' developed as it's used currently.
And from H: Bottle as far as I know is Bottle of verve...........nerve..........verve = spirit
Sparky says it's from Bottle and Glass, rhyming with Class. People with a bit of class can handle things better than them what ain't got it.

it's what the English cricket team lacks

fascinating - thank you very much indeed, Beast my dear! [passing popcorn]

>> Fat bastards <<

wanna step outside and say that, Mr Jimmy? if you've got the bottle, that is -
i get fierce when people insult my gallant informants, and/or my popcorn.

..and I'll bravely stand behind her while she kicks your ass....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-06 11:59 by Gazza.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i'm hoping some of our kind patient knowledgeable
> and good-lookin British-English-speakin iorrians
> would be good enough to tell me something about
> the meaning, usage and origins of the idiom "to
> have the bottle to do something".
> i ran into it in that early version of Fight and
> in then again in ALO's book, so i got curious.
> i'm *almost* sure it means something like "to have
> the balls to do something" - is that right?
> or is it more like having the good sense to do
> something, or ... ?
>
> is it used currently? is it used by/about women as
> well as men? and are the origins of it known?
>
> and if you can stand a couple more: when i google
> it it seems like 99% of the time it's used in
> negative sentences,
> but is it normal to use it in affirmative
> sentences too? "he had the bottle to show up two
> hours early", for example?
>
> thanks for any insights, and have some popcorn.

<<<<< "to have the balls to do something" - is that right ? >>>>>

That's exactly right.

Also, the expression "to bottle out" means to abandon an intended course of action, to back out of doing something or other.

Example: He/she was going to do a parachute jump but bottled out 5 minutes beforehand.

<<<<< but is it normal to use it in affirmative sentences too ? "he had the bottle to show up two hours early", for example ? >>>>>

It can be used in the affirmative. You can on occasions hear people say things "it takes a lot of bottle" .... to do this or that for example, but it would be fair to say that its usage is more often associated with the negative. In the above example it means "it takes a lot of nerve" to ............

Don't know the origins of the expression, but goood old Google ought to be able to help you out with that one. It is a very commonly used expression within the UK though, rest assured.

>> but goood old Google ought to be able to help you out with that one <<

the fair young Beast already helped hugely, thanks! see above :E
and thanks for your input too, Paul [passing popcorn]

now i seem to be confused about "losing one's bottle" -
does it mean to lose one's nerve/courage or to lose one's cool/self-control?
one of the examples Beast cited had "you should see him when he's lost his bottle" meaning
"when he's having a frenzied tantrum" or something like that - is it used both ways?

and as long as you're all being so kind, generous, patient, knowledgeable & good-lookin,
let me see if i can get this next question said: is "X has a lot of bottle" or "Z had the bottle to do whatever"
more admiring their courage, or disapproving their impudence, or can it be either?
[making fresh batches of the greatest rock & roll popcorn in the world]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-06 13:04 by with sssoul.

Saying someone has a lot of bottle would normally be admiring said person; and losing one's bottle would normally be losing one;s nerve.

You might have to scrape me off the floor at the end of the tour, but it'll be really good scrapings. - Mick Jagger

<<<<< "X has a lot of bottle" or "Z had the bottle to do whatever" >>>>>

Contextually these statements would translate as:

"X has a lot of courage/audacity/cheek/nerve" ......

Similarly:

"Z had the courage/audacity/cheek/nerve" ......

There's obviously a slight difference in good old fashioned courage or bravery and audacity or cheek, but the expression to have "the bottle to" .... blah blah blah" is very much used in both contexts.

To "lose one's bottle" as an expression more often than not denotes someone abandoning an intended course of action out of genuine fear or apprehension. As an example, a long time ago I was travelling in the middle east and I met and got talking to a small group of ex-special forces types who were working as mercenaries. They were all in their mid forties and drinking and smoking like mad, and when I remarked that they all looked too old and worn out to be doing what they were doing, one of them went on to say something like: "the old cardiovascular system and legs can hold up till our age or even beyond, but once you reach 50 .... you lose your bottle and then you know it's time to quit". What he actually "meant" was that once you reach 50, you would find certain things or circumstances genuinely frightening that earlier in life you wouldn't have.

Hope that helps in your understanding of the expression, it is a curious one for sure.

Incidentally, isn't it a comparatively recent idiom? I certainly don't remember anyone using it when I was nobbut a lass....

You might have to scrape me off the floor at the end of the tour, but it'll be really good scrapings. - Mick Jagger

very cool input, thank you! i now feel satisfied that i know how to use it.
[passing fresh popcorn to Paul & Han]

Oh - I saw this too late and missed out on another helping of popcorn. DAMN!!

Mick Jagger was recently asked about how he manages to perform on stage. He replied, it depends on how much bottle you've got.

[passing out fresh helpings of popcorn to everyone in the thread]

[Enjoying popcorn]

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> >> Fat bastards <<
>
> wanna step outside and say that, Mr Jimmy? if
> you've got the bottle, that is -
> i get fierce when people insult my gallant
> informants, and/or my popcorn.

Heeheehee! LOL!!

I'm sure your popcorn is of the highest order. And Gazza clearly has no bottle for offering to stand behind a woman while said woman administers physical punishment to my good self.

Ouch!

_____________________________________________________

What's your favourite flavour?...........Cherry Red!!

Mr Jimmy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> with sssoul Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > >> Fat bastards <<
> >
> > wanna step outside and say that, Mr Jimmy? if
> > you've got the bottle, that is -
> > i get fierce when people insult my gallant
> > informants, and/or my popcorn.
>
> Heeheehee! LOL!!
>
> I'm sure your popcorn is of the highest order. And
> Gazza clearly has no bottle for offering to stand
> behind a woman while said woman administers
> physical punishment to my good self.
>
> Ouch!


Oh I've a lot of 'bottle', but having actually met Ms. sssoul, I reckon she could take care of herself quite handily......I'd just be happy to hold her popcorn for her....

you can hold my popcorn anytime, Gazza. :E
shall we, Mr Jimmy? [holding open the way out]

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you can hold my popcorn anytime, Gazza. :E
> shall we, Mr Jimmy?


I've already taken a cyber-beating, i can't stand anymore. I already got three black eyes and a busted nose...

But if you insist, then, ok, it's popcorn-firing pistols at dawn. Thats as violent as I'm gonna get. I thought you knew, i'm a lover not a fighter!

_____________________________________________________

What's your favourite flavour?...........Cherry Red!!

Poofter!

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poofter!


Takes one to know one...

_____________________________________________________

What's your favourite flavour?...........Cherry Red!!

LoFL - break it up, gentlemen!
i was outside waitin for you, Mr Jimmy, and it's COLD down there!

oh and Gazza ...

>> reckon she could take care of herself quite handily <<

tell the nice people you don't mean i outweigh 'em all -
they already imagine i'm huge just because i never do photos



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-06 19:57 by with sssoul.

Here's another one for you Ms sssoul ...... and no doubt Gazza, Beast & the good Mr Jimmy will add their comments by way of any necessary further explanations if required.

We here in the UK also use the expression "to have a lot of front". If you describe someone as having "a lot of front", you're basically saying that they've got a lot of nerve or cheek. You're essentially describing them as someone who is exhibiting a lot of "audacious" cheek

One of the cutest expressions I've heard, and to some extent adopted, is "you've got more front than Harrods". I should explain that Harrods is London's kind of flagship department store (sorry if you already know this, don't wish to offend), and of course being pretty sizeable - occupies a lot of store "frontage". Hence the expression ..... "more front than Harrods".

Careful where/when you use it now, you might (heaven forbid) find yourself accused of being a Londoner !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-06 21:01 by paulywaul.

smile: thank you Paul! i did know about having more front than Harrods - i think that one crops up in ALO's book too
(as well it might)! i had mis-associated it more with hyper-showy display windows than with square footage, though,
so i'm glad to have that finetuning. [offering more popcorn]