i always thought that duane allman played slide with his ring finger not middle finger...derek trucks is just a slide phenom, end it there...keith had a nice slide sound on jigsaw puzzle and you gotta move...taylor does need to be pushed,i was listening to dylan's infidels, taylor plays solid licks all throughout the album...

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Wrong finger? What is the wrong finger? There's
> many great players putting the slide on the second
> finger -Duane Allman, Bonnie Raitt to name a few.

What? Every picture of Allman I have has his slide on his ring finger.
Unless you read things right to left.
Not sure about Raitt.
I prefer Wood myself, although all are (were) wonderful players.
JUst because Wood plays most open-E doesn't limit his playing, I think.
He playing on versions of All Down The Line prove he was pretty good
in standard tuning. Mind you, those are from 30 years ago.
Then again, this is a totally different band, sadly.
Duane Allman played mostly in open-E. Yet, some of his most
intersting stuff (like Mountain Jam) is in standard tuning.

Umm.. my reference to 'wrong finger' was with tongue firmly in cheek, we each have our preferences according to what suits us.

Same goes with what sorta slide to use...now there's a can of worms. I currently use a Craftsman spark plug socket on my tri-cone & model O, nice & heavy.

Brian plays the slide on Jig-Saw puzzle . . .

Ron plays with the slide on the middle finger because he is in Open E. In that tuning he also grabs chords with the index and ringfinger.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ron plays with the slide on the middle finger
> because he is in Open E. In that tuning he also
> grabs chords with the index and ringfinger.

Well, he used to play All Down the Line in standard tuning,
but he usually plays in open-e, the black and white Zemaitis
is in open-e, always has been as far as I know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-06-11 01:46 by tomk.

Not really about the Stones but I was just wondering.. do they still sell those Coricidin medicine bottles? Coricidin is in those plastic things now.

Dark Was The Night - Cold Was The Ground
Blind Willie Johnson - 3 December 1927

An amazing slide player...Ry Cooder
plays copies it note for note

The Complete Blind Willie Johnson - Columbia/Legacy C2K 52835





ROCKMAN

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian plays the slide on Jig-Saw puzzle . . .

Are you sure about that? That sounds like Keith to me.
ISn't there a Mellotron in there, too. I thought Brian played that.
What was wonderful about Keith's slide playing back then was
it was new to him that it sounds remarkably fresh and innovating
and he created a truly original sound.
Funny how he pretty much abandoned it after Let IT Bleed.
Whereas George Harrison started playing slide after the Beatles
and he sounded like he had been playing it for years.

tomk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> neptune Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Brian plays the slide on Jig-Saw puzzle . . .
>
> Are you sure about that? That sounds like Keith to
> me.


Actually, nobody knows for sure who played slide on Jigsaw Puzzle. My 'hunch' is it's Brian because the style, with the strummed bass chords followed by those screeching high notes on slide, is more his than Keith's. Brian does the same thing on LRR, Doncha Bother Me, King Bee, etc. Keith's work on slide in songs such as LIB, You Gotta Move, Love In Vain, etc. does not resemble at all the style employed on Jigsaw. I just feel the slide on Jigsaw, particularly the pace and flow of it, has a Brianesque feel to it . . .

No disrespect Neptune, but IMO the style of Slide in Jigsaw is very Keithian.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

As I have stated many times, the slide in Jigsaw Puzzle sounds absolutely like Keith, and not like Brian. It is way too sloppy for being Brian, he was a much more neat player than Keith. Also, the turn-arounds at the 1:03 mark are typically Keith. Further, both Jagger, Wyman and Jimmy Miller has stated in intervews that Brian's only guitar contribution on BB was No Expecattions, all else he did was harmonica and tambura. By the way, the high wining noise in Jigsaw Puzzle is not a mellotron, but a Moog synthesizer played by Bill Wyman.

Mathijs

My ear testimony also says that it is Keith Richards in "Jigsaw Puzzle", for the same 'sloppiness' reasons as Mathijs describes.

- Doxa

Mathijs, where did you read about Miller and Wyman saying that Brian's only guitar contribution on BB was NE? The only quote I remember from Miller was sometime shortly after Brian's death, when he lauded Brian's slide work on BB. Mick Jagger stated in According to The Rolling Stones that Brian's only contribution on BB was 'some slide in NE', and we all know he is dead wrong there. If Keith indeed played slide on Jigsaw, why hasn't that song ever been played live? One would think considering Keith's huge ego, that if he indeed had played all the guitars on Jigsaw, he would have insisted it be played live at some point in the past 38 years. Hell, they have played You Gotta Move, LIB, Love in Vain, and Salt of the Earth live, all songs featuring Keith on slide. But no Jigsaw? That's strange considering it's such a great song. About Bill Wyman playing a Moog synthesizer on Jigsaw, I don't know about that. It sounds like a mellotron to me. Otherwise Mathijs, I am in agreement with many of your points on this thread . . .

Chippy, as we all know, various 'sources' state different things about what guitar parts Brian and Keith play. 'Guitarist' magazine recently stated that Keith played lead on The Last Time and slide on Little Red Rooster!!! We know that is ridiculously wrong. The problem with the Brian Jones Era is that few real facts have survived to bolster any claims about who played what. Keith remains quiet while the others have trouble remembering. Even Bill Wyman can't be completed trusted (he now is saying that he made Paint It, Black with the organ pedals . . . please!) If Brian were alive, it would be completely different as he would probably have stated the parts he played, much like MT has done. Why doesn't Keith talk more? Why don't the Stones have an anthology set like the Beatles with the credits for every song? It certainly gets frustrating for us fans who have to go on whims and make guesses . . .

One things is certain; Keith lies alot about credsand influences. But, I am not sure about Jig Saw puzzle, its not very good anyhow but fits the song. Hm, it sounds like Brian but theat thing in the end of the first slide minute is very Keithish. On the other hand Keith knicked stuff from Brian.

We all know that Keith has very little say-so in what gets played live. IMO his "huge ego" has nothing to do with...uh anyhting here. As I siad before IMO it is surely Keith on slide, adn the reason they never played it live is probably because Jagger doesn't want to remmeber all those endl;ess lyrics.
Personally I don't thionk JP would be a good one to play live anyway unless it got a different arrangment. It is too repetitive. In the studio this works because they f8ck with it. but live those dymanmics wouldn't come off as well.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way, thehigh wining noise in Jigsaw Puzzle is not a
> mellotron, but a Moog synthesizer played by Bill Wyman.

Unless you have a chapter and verse on that (an interview with Wyman,
Jimmy Miller, or an engineer, and not "I ran into him at a club" ), I have to go with the Mellotron. First of all, the Mellotron was very en vogue in '67 and '68 (it's on Stray Cat), it certainly was floating around Olympic Studios
around that time (See photos of that period). The first "popular" use of the Moog was on the Monkees "Pisces Aquarius..." issued in November '67. Indeed,
Wendy/Wlater Carlos' Switched on Bach did not appear until mid-1968, well before
a Moog appeard in the Stones' camp, (the Jagger/Kenneth Anger stuff, Mick supposedly haveing on in his bacjyard). IF Wyman did use it, it should be a goundbreaking moment in the history of the Moog as the probably the first British band to use it. And if he did, then it should have made the rounds around British bands. IF we're talking about '68,
how come there's no Moog on the White Album? The Beatles did not use the Moog until mid-1969 on Abbey Road (George HArrison's Electronic SOunds being recorded
in late 1968, I believe). ALso the Moog at that time was a monstrosity to set up, being quite large and full of patch-bays. Hardly worthwhile to set that up
for a small part in SOTE. Besides, it sound like a Mellotron.
Please supply your information regarding this, otherwise (as I said)
I'm going with the Mellotron.

A Moog synthesizer was sold to the Rolling Stones on September 3rd 1968, according to the moog archives
[moogarchives.com]

x



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-09 02:49 by Beelyboy.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Even Bill Wyman can't be completed
> trusted (he now is saying that he made Paint It,
> Black with the organ pedals . . . please!)

Well, he does. Of course the song is best remembered and most widely known for the famous sitar intro. BUT (a big BUT) the true genius of the song is the pounding on the Tom-drums and the driving polka-like bass patern, played by Wyman on the bass-pedals of the organ. This is what gives the song it's drive, energy and vengeance. The sitar and the dark moody lyrics makes it all a dark song. A total master piece.

Mathijs

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs, where did you read about Miller and Wyman
> saying that Brian's only guitar contribution on BB
> was NE? The only quote I remember from Miller was
> sometime shortly after Brian's death, when he
> lauded Brian's slide work on BB.

There's quite some interviews with Miller from the late 80's / early 90's. Miller was an addict for much of the 80's, but in the early 90's he was sobering up and resurfacing as producer. There's a bunch of interviews with him where he speaks proudly of his days with the Stones. I remember a large interview in "Modern Drummer", and also a large one in a mag for the recording industry (which also featured Chris Kimsey). In these interviews he talks about Jones (Miller's quotes about his visits to Cotchford are from this interview) and his contributions to BB, he also mentiones Wyman's use of the Moog synth on Jigsaw Puzzle (according to Miller Wyman has always been interested in new electronic devices) and he talks about recording HTW, and about Taylor (the best guitarist he has ever worked with).

But aside from all the interviews: my ears simply tell me it is Richards, not Jones. The turn-arounds at the third fret (at the 1:05 mark) are totally Keith.

And why don't they play JP live? I realy don't know, but I can guess. In my old band we have tried it, and it just doesn't work live. It is way too repetitive and it just doesn't seem to go anywhere. It's a killer album track, but the appeal is very hard to transmit live. And I really don't think that the Stones have ever played songs live due to Keith's ego...They even do songs on wich Keith originally even doesn't play.

Mathijs


Mick Jagger
> stated in According to The Rolling Stones that
> Brian's only contribution on BB was 'some slide in
> NE', and we all know he is dead wrong there. If
> Keith indeed played slide on Jigsaw, why hasn't
> that song ever been played live? One would think
> considering Keith's huge ego, that if he indeed
> had played all the guitars on Jigsaw, he would
> have insisted it be played live at some point in
> the past 38 years. Hell, they have played You
> Gotta Move, LIB, Love in Vain, and Salt of the
> Earth live, all songs featuring Keith on slide.
> But no Jigsaw? That's strange considering it's
> such a great song. About Bill Wyman playing a
> Moog synthesizer on Jigsaw, I don't know about
> that. It sounds like a mellotron to me.
> Otherwise Mathijs, I am in agreement with many of
> your points on this thread . . .

tomk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Unless you have a chapter and verse on that (an
> interview with Wyman,
> Jimmy Miller, or an engineer, and not "I ran into
> him at a club" ), I have to go with the Mellotron.
> First of all, the Mellotron was very en vogue in
> '67 and '68 (it's on Stray Cat), it certainly was
> floating around Olympic Studios
> around that time (See photos of that period). The
> first "popular" use of the Moog was on the Monkees
> "Pisces Aquarius..." issued in November '67.
> Indeed,
> Wendy/Wlater Carlos' Switched on Bach did not
> appear until mid-1968, well before
> a Moog appeard in the Stones' camp, (the
> Jagger/Kenneth Anger stuff, Mick supposedly
> haveing on in his bacjyard). IF Wyman did use it,
> it should be a goundbreaking moment in the history
> of the Moog as the probably the first British band
> to use it. And if he did, then it should have made
> the rounds around British bands. IF we're talking
> about '68,
> how come there's no Moog on the White Album? The
> Beatles did not use the Moog until mid-1969 on
> Abbey Road (George HArrison's Electronic SOunds
> being recorded
> in late 1968, I believe). ALso the Moog at that
> time was a monstrosity to set up, being quite
> large and full of patch-bays. Hardly worthwhile to
> set that up
> for a small part in SOTE. Besides, it sound like a
> Mellotron.
> Please supply your information regarding this,
> otherwise (as I said)
> I'm going with the Mellotron.

See the posts above. Also, on a Melltron a tone can only last for about 7 seconds max. Listen to the "whines" on Jigsaw, and they last longer than 8 seconds. So either they did tape splicing, or they indeed used the Moog.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> See the posts above. Also, on a Melltron a tone
> can only last for about 7 seconds max. Listen to
> the "whines" on Jigsaw, and they last longer than
> 8 seconds. So either they did tape splicing, or
> they indeed used the Moog.

INdeed, a Mellotron only lasts about 7 seconds. However, the tape can snap back
awfully fast. I worked with one a few times, and you may miss a split-second
if you press/release/press. It could be looped. I've always been a bit suspicious of interviews with Jimmy Miller post-drugs due to the baggage involved, indeed mostmusicians (producers, etc) from that time. I've spoken to a few and most seem to have no idea what they did or how they did it, even George Martin on occasion. Also, Wyman was interested in the the Moog/electronic sounds, but that seems to be late 68/69, post Beggars recording.
As I said, that probably would be one of the first uses on a British pop/rock record and no such kudos seems to be given. Also, as I said, the early Moogs were such monstrosities, it seems a waste to set up for such a minor part.
There is a similir-sounding part in Cream's Badge, towards the end.
I'll have to did it out again and have a listen.
Thanks for the info on the interviews.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-06-13 03:28 by tomk.

open-g Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A Moog synthesizer was sold to the Rolling Stones
> on September 3rd 1968, according to the moog
> archives
> [moogarchives.com]


Wow - I think I haven't quotet myself before 'round here - but in this case^^

3rd of september '68 seems a little late to have a new toy in the shed, AND have it on record - beeing released shortly after.

maybe they used a different one - but which?
the modular moog synthesizers where rare in England