My favourite subject - if only because it has gotten completely out of hand and is riddled with deceit and malpractice.

[www.completemusicupdate.com]

The House Of Lords yesterday voted – just – to include a new clause in the Consumer Rights Bill that would force people touting tickets online to provide buyers with a bunch of extra information, a move designed to make it clearer who exactly it is reselling tickets, how big a mark-up is being added, and what the risks are to the consumer by buying tickets on the secondary market.

The amendment stems from a report published by the All-Party Parliamentary Group On Ticket Abuse back in April, which hoped to speed up the prospect of some ticketing touting regulation by amending the in-development Consumer Rights Bill, rather than having to promote bespoke ticket touting legislation to government or via a private members bill.

The amendment approved by 183 votes to 171 by the Lords yesterday would oblige a ticket seller using a resale site like Viagogo, Seatwave or StubHub to reveal their identity, declare the face value of tickets they are selling, provide seat numbers and booking refs associated with the ticket, and state whether the terms and conditions of the ticket being sold give the promoter the right to block entry to the event if they discover the ticket was resold. The secondary sites would also be obliged to ensure this information is given.

There are various motives behind the proposed regulations including: exposing the commercial touts who prolifically buy up tickets; making sure consumers realise that they are buying a touted ticket, the premium they are paying and the possible risk of being refused entry; and trying to stop touts from selling tickets they are yet to actually secure from the primary seller (sometimes before tickets are even on sale via the official route).

There is opposition to the proposals, which aren’t endorsed by the government. Although a number of key sporting bodies have been pushing for more regulation of the secondary ticketing market, the live music industry is of two minds, not least because some live music players are now in the resale game themselves.

Meanwhile, Live Nation’s Ticketmaster, which is in both the primary and secondary ticketing business, argues that over regulating the latter will force the touts onto online platforms outside the direct jurisdiction of the UK, where consumers are more likely to be the victims of ticket fraud. Ticketmaster reckons that any regulation should focus on those using clever software that enables them to buy up significant portions of primary tickets to in-demand events.

And while the APPG’s proposals have some key supporters in parliament, who secured the vote in the Lords this week, there are plenty in the political community who share Ticketmaster’s view. It will be interesting to see what the House Of Commons makes of the Lords-approved amend.

But welcoming yesterday’s vote, Lib Dem Lord Tim Clement-Jones, who was behind the Live Music Act in 2012, told reporters: “This is a victory both for the ticket-buying public and for the hugely important live event industry. The police and the entertainment industry have been clear that action needs to be taken on ticket touts to ensure that genuine fans can get access to gigs, shows and games without having to pay extortionate prices, and these new measures would do exactly that”.

Meanwhile the APPG’s chairs – Labour’s Sharon Hodgson and the Conservative’s Mike Weatherley – also welcomed the Lords vote.

Hodgson: “Ticket touts have operated with impunity for far too long. In no other market would we put up with not knowing who we were buying from or whether they even had permission to sell us a product. This amendment is a significant step towards tackling the scourge of touts and putting fans first, and I hope that the government now listens to the will of parliament.”

Weatherley: “It’s been clear for a long time that this market is not working in the interest of genuine fans or the people who put in all the hard work and investment to put on live events. Anyone operating honestly has nothing to fear from these changes, but they will make a big difference for ordinary fans. It’s imperative that the government doesn’t try to reverse this amendment when the bill comes back to the Commons”.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

OT?

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swiss
OT?

Well if you've ever been forced to buy a Stones ticket off either GETMEIN, SEATWAVE, VIAGOGO, or STUBHUB (as I have on a tiny handful of occasions) ... then it's hardly OT - is it ?

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

I'd like to see sellers obliged to reveal where the ticket will be dispatched from - having fallen foul of a seller based in Italy who posted the ticket too late and didn't pay for Saturday delivery. There it was sitting in UPS's depot, but they wouldn't deliver it until after the show.

I think it's a start anyway ... to introduce at least some semblance of transparency into what has evolved into a truly hideous modern day phenomenon, which in my humble opinion is what this whole re-selling on the secondary market is !! It's not enterprising, it's not market forces, it's just speculation run rife pure and simple, and as a phenomenon ... it's one that is riddled with deceit and malpractice.

I have often found myself arguing with SEATWAVE in particular about their refusal to divulge row or seat number information, which if you think about .... is THE most basic information any prospective buyer would want before making an informed choice about whether to buy or not, and whether to buy at an inflated price also of course. This is basic product information, what the f**k is the big secret ? A ticket consists of an artist, a venue, a date, a block, a row, a seat with a number.

so when I read this, I am in some slight degree encouraged ........

would oblige a ticket seller using a resale site like Viagogo, Seatwave or StubHub to reveal their identity, declare the face value of tickets they are selling, provide seat numbers and booking refs associated with the ticket, and state whether the terms and conditions of the ticket being sold give the promoter the right to block entry to the event if they discover the ticket was resold. The secondary sites would also be obliged to ensure this information is given.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

There's still a House of Lords?

The All-Parliamentary Group report makes interesting reading, especially the "evidence" provided by the main four UK resellers and the fact that 3,600 tickets in one year for the O2 alone were found to be fake & all were sold by those four. Plus various other tales of scams.

[appgticketabuse.wordpress.com]

If you don't like the secondary market, don't participate. I find it rather absurd that politicians are getting into this act. Of course it is market driven and speculative and I don't like it much. Just like I don't like what guitar collectors have done to the vintage guitar market. But in the end it's your choice to buy these tickets.

What I think is deceitful is the way it has corrupted the original ticket sellers. As I've posted before, I recall being 2nd in line for Stones tickets in LA back in 1989 and watching the ticket lady printing off as many tickets as she could between customers and putting them to the side. When I got my somewhat crappy seats I demanded two of the tickets she had "set aside", which she reluctantly gave me. They were much better seats that the others and I walked away feeling a bit slighted.

Luckily when we got to the gig, those two seats were in an area taken up by a lighting scaffolding and we were told to go talk to the lady by the stage and she traded us our tickets for two 2nd row center seats. Lucky day for us and besides a whining Axl Rose it was a great Stones performance.

peace

There I was sat finally calm after the ticket stress of the O2 just over 2 years ago................and Pauly goes and upsets me all over again

I've recently had the delight of dealing with Viagogo for one of my Stones Melbourne pit tickets.............what a set of complete and utter lying, useless ba**ards they are !

Bought in July at twice face value (I can accept that) with the promise that "we deliver anywhere in the world" . After weeks of emails and phone calls they finally decided that they couldn't get the ticket to me before I travelled and would arrange a pick up at venue... 2 days before the show I got an email to pick up from a football stadium down the road from the arena.

They honestly couldn't see anything wrong with this. I pointed out that I'd often travelled to gigs and bought tickets outside from touts with no problem and if I'd wanted to be running around getting a ticket 2 hrs before the show I would have paid a lot less......Wa*kers

sc uk

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Naturalust
If you don't like the secondary market, don't participate. I find it rather absurd that politicians are getting into this act. Of course it is market driven and speculative and I don't like it much. Just like I don't like what guitar collectors have done to the vintage guitar market. But in the end it's your choice to buy these tickets.

What I think is deceitful is the way it has corrupted the original ticket sellers. As I've posted before, I recall being 2nd in line for Stones tickets in LA back in 1989 and watching the ticket lady printing off as many tickets as she could between customers and putting them to the side. When I got my somewhat crappy seats I demanded two of the tickets she had "set aside", which she reluctantly gave me. They were much better seats that the others and I walked away feeling a bit slighted.

Luckily when we got to the gig, those two seats were in an area taken up by a lighting scaffolding and we were told to go talk to the lady by the stage and she traded us our tickets for two 2nd row center seats. Lucky day for us and besides a whining Axl Rose it was a great Stones performance.

peace

Participate ? Most of the ticket buying public do not have a @#$%& choice in the matter, do they ? Why ? Because they are denied a fair crack at tickets themselves when they are supposedly initially put on sale by the primary vendors, due to all the malpractice and lack of transparency.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-09 10:47 by paulywaul.

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paulywaul

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Naturalust
If you don't like the secondary market, don't participate. I find it rather absurd that politicians are getting into this act. Of course it is market driven and speculative and I don't like it much. Just like I don't like what guitar collectors have done to the vintage guitar market. But in the end it's your choice to buy these tickets.

What I think is deceitful is the way it has corrupted the original ticket sellers. As I've posted before, I recall being 2nd in line for Stones tickets in LA back in 1989 and watching the ticket lady printing off as many tickets as she could between customers and putting them to the side. When I got my somewhat crappy seats I demanded two of the tickets she had "set aside", which she reluctantly gave me. They were much better seats that the others and I walked away feeling a bit slighted.

Luckily when we got to the gig, those two seats were in an area taken up by a lighting scaffolding and we were told to go talk to the lady by the stage and she traded us our tickets for two 2nd row center seats. Lucky day for us and besides a whining Axl Rose it was a great Stones performance.

peace

Participate ? Most of the ticket buying public do not have a @#$%& choice in the matter, do they ? Why ? Because they are denied a fair crack at tickets themselves when they are supposedly initially put on sale by the primary vendors, due to all the malpractice and lack of transparency.

Agree 100% Pauly......It's all rigged. The Who tour sold out all the best seats instantly back in the summer. Some "fan" and 5 of his friends are washing their hair on Saturday so can't make it and are having to "let the tickets go" on Get me in. Luckily if it's not the Stones I don't panic,so you'll be pleased to hear I've waited long enough for them to "take a bath" at 25% below face ....gives me a warm glow inside when that happens.

sc uk

-deleted-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-09 21:08 by Koen.

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straycatuk

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paulywaul

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Naturalust
If you don't like the secondary market, don't participate. I find it rather absurd that politicians are getting into this act. Of course it is market driven and speculative and I don't like it much. Just like I don't like what guitar collectors have done to the vintage guitar market. But in the end it's your choice to buy these tickets.

What I think is deceitful is the way it has corrupted the original ticket sellers. As I've posted before, I recall being 2nd in line for Stones tickets in LA back in 1989 and watching the ticket lady printing off as many tickets as she could between customers and putting them to the side. When I got my somewhat crappy seats I demanded two of the tickets she had "set aside", which she reluctantly gave me. They were much better seats that the others and I walked away feeling a bit slighted.

Luckily when we got to the gig, those two seats were in an area taken up by a lighting scaffolding and we were told to go talk to the lady by the stage and she traded us our tickets for two 2nd row center seats. Lucky day for us and besides a whining Axl Rose it was a great Stones performance.

peace

Participate ? Most of the ticket buying public do not have a @#$%& choice in the matter, do they ? Why ? Because they are denied a fair crack at tickets themselves when they are supposedly initially put on sale by the primary vendors, due to all the malpractice and lack of transparency.

Agree 100% Pauly......It's all rigged. The Who tour sold out all the best seats instantly back in the summer. Some "fan" and 5 of his friends are washing their hair on Saturday so can't make it and are having to "let the tickets go" on Get me in. Luckily if it's not the Stones I don't panic,so you'll be pleased to hear I've waited long enough for them to "take a bath" at 25% below face ....gives me a warm glow inside when that happens.

sc uk

I agree that malpractice and lack of transparency is not right. Maybe I am even wrong and it's time for some laws and criminal repercussions for people and organizations that perpetuate these scams, you obviously know more about it than me and I would probably be even more angry if I knew more about the details of how this crap happens. "Clever software" that buys large amounts of tickets should definitely be outlawed.

But we always have a choice and as sc uk points out, when he (and lots of others) made the choice to not participate, the demand for the Who tickets went down to a point where they were LESS than face value.

Obviously if lots of people want or need something that is limited in supply, the value and price of that will go up. In a free market based society that's just how it works. If it wasn't malpractice by large organizations it would be "fans" who decided that the $1000+ they could get for their tickets was more valuable to them than seeing the show. Just like the demand for illegal drugs creates the huge profits and violence in world, your need for good tickets creates the secondary ticket market problem.

But like I said I agree completely that the organizations originally selling the tickets, per their agreement with the promoters and artists, should have no part in this and all tickets should be available on a first come first serve basis and that secondary market sellers should have accountability and transparency. Personally I don't need any ticket bad enough to help perpetuate this crap so my choice not to participate is easier to make.

peace

I remember a few years ago I saw the Who at the 02 Indigo and I'm sure I had to produce the credit card I purchased the tickets with at the venue in order to gain entry to the gig on the night. If the Stones or any other artist gives a toss about their fans maybe this would be the way to go. Then again those thieving touts wouldn't make a penny and we couldn't have that!!!!!!!!!!!


John Nicholls

The last couple shows I bought tickets for, they were etickets sent directly to my cellphone. If for some reason I am unable to attend, I can transfer them to someone else. Not sure if this will be useful to prevent fraudulent tickets.

The other option is credit card entry, but that almost forces the buyer to attend.

I think Viagogo and other similar company's should move their offices to Syria.

Nate

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Naturalust

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straycatuk

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paulywaul

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Naturalust
If you don't like the secondary market, don't participate. I find it rather absurd that politicians are getting into this act. Of course it is market driven and speculative and I don't like it much. Just like I don't like what guitar collectors have done to the vintage guitar market. But in the end it's your choice to buy these tickets.

What I think is deceitful is the way it has corrupted the original ticket sellers. As I've posted before, I recall being 2nd in line for Stones tickets in LA back in 1989 and watching the ticket lady printing off as many tickets as she could between customers and putting them to the side. When I got my somewhat crappy seats I demanded two of the tickets she had "set aside", which she reluctantly gave me. They were much better seats that the others and I walked away feeling a bit slighted.

Luckily when we got to the gig, those two seats were in an area taken up by a lighting scaffolding and we were told to go talk to the lady by the stage and she traded us our tickets for two 2nd row center seats. Lucky day for us and besides a whining Axl Rose it was a great Stones performance.

peace

Participate ? Most of the ticket buying public do not have a @#$%& choice in the matter, do they ? Why ? Because they are denied a fair crack at tickets themselves when they are supposedly initially put on sale by the primary vendors, due to all the malpractice and lack of transparency.

Agree 100% Pauly......It's all rigged. The Who tour sold out all the best seats instantly back in the summer. Some "fan" and 5 of his friends are washing their hair on Saturday so can't make it and are having to "let the tickets go" on Get me in. Luckily if it's not the Stones I don't panic,so you'll be pleased to hear I've waited long enough for them to "take a bath" at 25% below face ....gives me a warm glow inside when that happens.

sc uk

I agree that malpractice and lack of transparency is not right. Maybe I am even wrong and it's time for some laws and criminal repercussions for people and organizations that perpetuate these scams, you obviously know more about it than me and I would probably be even more angry if I knew more about the details of how this crap happens. "Clever software" that buys large amounts of tickets should definitely be outlawed.

But we always have a choice and as sc uk points out, when he (and lots of others) made the choice to not participate, the demand for the Who tickets went down to a point where they were LESS than face value.

Obviously if lots of people want or need something that is limited in supply, the value and price of that will go up. In a free market based society that's just how it works. If it wasn't malpractice by large organizations it would be "fans" who decided that the $1000+ they could get for their tickets was more valuable to them than seeing the show. Just like the demand for illegal drugs creates the huge profits and violence in world, your need for good tickets creates the secondary ticket market problem.

But like I said I agree completely that the organizations originally selling the tickets, per their agreement with the promoters and artists, should have no part in this and all tickets should be available on a first come first serve basis and that secondary market sellers should have accountability and transparency. Personally I don't need any ticket bad enough to help perpetuate this crap so my choice not to participate is easier to make.

peace

Yep, that's about it. I'm not so belligerent or stupid as to rant about the injustices of the free market economy. It is what it is and we have to live with it. Basic supply and demand. But what is completely unfair and definitely needs controlling measures applied to it or some form of legislative intervention are fundamentally two things: (a) the unsavoury relationship between the primary vendors and those companies operating in the secondary market, and (b) the failure by these companies to fully describe the ticket(s).

Think, just think for one minute, of the absurdity and unfairness of someone trying to sell you or me a ticket (at a grossly inflated price over face value) to see our favourite artist in say the O2 Arena, without providing the most basic information about the ticket ?

[www.mapaplan.com]

So there you and I are, looking let us say at two tickets for sale in block 112, a block of lower tiers near the stage and to the right of it as you're facing it. The block consists of 24 rows, lowest is A, uppermost is Z. The seat numbers within the rows run from 363 to 378 (from furthest away to closest), an aisle takes out seats 379/380/381, then the rest of the block is made up of seats 382 to 393.

Are you seriously telling me that you think an ad listing tickets for sale at significantly above face value that does not even list the row, let alone seat number(s) is appropriate ? Or that it provides you or I with sufficient information in order to be able to make an informed choice as to whether we wish to pay that inflated price and buy ? Let me answer the question for you, like f**k it does !!

So ideally you're after seats in say the lower half dozen rows and preferably near the aisle that splits block 112 in two; how happy would you then be if you paid over face value for the tickets in that block and ended up in the approximate location of say rows X/Y/Z in seats 363/364/365 - just because VIAGOGO thinks "it's not necessary for buyers to b made aware of row/seat number information and that they're not by law at this time obliged to furnish that information" ?

THAT is why this is important

The amendment approved by 183 votes to 171 by the Lords yesterday would oblige a ticket seller using a resale site like Viagogo, Seatwave or StubHub to reveal their identity, declare the face value of tickets they are selling, provide seat numbers and booking refs associated with the ticket, and state whether the terms and conditions of the ticket being sold give the promoter the right to block entry to the event if they discover the ticket was resold. The secondary sites would also be obliged to ensure this information is given.

Ask yourself this ? You're buying a car. The seller is quite happy to sell it to you at above list price, but doesn't feel that it's necessary to tell you (a) what colour it is, or (b) whether it's a three door or five door version ?

You'd settle for that, would you ? You're totally nuts if you would, you're a mug ... a complete and utter mug !!

A ticket tells you (a) who you're seeing, (b) where you're seeing them, (c) when you're seeing them, (d) the location within the venue from where you'll be seeing them, defined as a specific seat within a specific row within a specific block !!

This is basic product information. There's nothing "proprietary" about it. The secondary sites need to be obliged by law to provide this information to the buying public, failing to do so is simply misdescribing the item(s) for sale. In no other domain I can think of is this allowed to happen, without there being a consequence for the vendor.

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

"During the evidence sessions, Reg Walker said 3,600 counterfeit and invalid tickets were seized on the doors of the o2 last year, all of which were bought through the Big 4 secondary platforms..."

This is 10 tickets every day of the year...just amazing. I guess all these people got a refund but only for the ticket itslf

Wow paulywaul, you are impassioned about this issue. And I generally agree with you on the points you make. Most fans will certainly benefit from better accountability and disclosure by the re-seller and I applaud your disgust with the previous offenders. I can only imagine that you must see a lot of shows and are often required to use the secondary market to procure your tickets. If you are travelling around specifically to see an artist, yeah it becomes more important, but the great majority of fans aren't doing that.

I will respond to a few of your statements just to provide a different point of view and keep the discussion going:

Think, just think for one minute, of the absurdity and unfairness of someone trying to sell you or me a ticket (at a grossly inflated price over face value) to see our favourite artist in say the O2 Arena, without providing the most basic information about the ticket ?

Maybe not so absurd for them to try to sell me the ticket but possibly absurd for me to actually buy the ticket. I probably wouldn't do it, and find some other entertainment for the evening.

(a) the unsavoury relationship between the primary vendors and those companies operating in the secondary market, and (b) the failure by these companies to fully describe the ticket(s).

Personally the first of your two issue (a) upsets me more. I believe all tickets should be made available to individuals except for a limited number of seats reserved by the promoter and band for their guests. Large numbers of seats sluffed off to re-sellers is just plain wrong and should be illegal. Promoters and companies caught doing this should be banned from ever doing business again, blackballed from the industry.

But the fully describing the tickets seems less cut and dried. For tickets re-sold at over face value I can see where it might be more important. Prior to interactive seat maps when we went to ticket lines or box offices or even online to buy reserved tickets for a show we didn't know exactly where the seats were going to be, basically a crap shoot. You decided which level (price) ticket you want, ask for best available and hope you get something decent. Often this information is less than a re-seller telling you what section you are in. Sometimes you got lucky, sometimes not.

To use your example, would you be happy if in the process of buying from a reseller you found out you were in row A in a seat closest to the stage? After only being told what section you were buying in? Are you saying this never happens?

But I see the the luck is becoming less common since the game is rigged and like you I hope all these issues get resolved to your satisfaction. Because if you are happy with the process, I guarantee I will be.



peace



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-10 11:56 by Naturalust.

Well, if wanting nothing more than a little transparency, dubious malpractice curtailed, and what is being offered for sale comprehensively described (as opposed to being either misdescribed or not described at all) ... then yes indeed I am impassioned about this issue. Can you blame me ?

Like a lot of us that like to go to gigs, we're not willing participants in the secondary market, we're mostly unwilling participants. That's my first objection. My second is this: that once in the secondary market, at the very least we should enjoy the clear benefit of a full and clear description of what someone is trying to sell us at an inflated price. Is that unreasonable ? Hardly !

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Maybe Paulywaul has been caught out? Which would account for the passion...I'm still reeling from the "3,600 invalid and counterfeit" tickets at the O2. This is virtually 10 a day every day (and of course I don't think they've got a big gig every day).

Those poor individuals will lose all travel costs and have perhaps taken accommodation (in London) and ...more to the point...will not see whatever it was they have paid premium price to see. Yes they get their money back for the ticket as they have bought through the quote big 4 re-sellers unquote but it's hard to see how these companies can have any credibility if (on average) every night there are 10 confrontations at the gate between people holding these counterfeit and invalid tickets and security staff.

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exhpart
Maybe Paulywaul has been caught out? Which would account for the passion...I'm still reeling from the "3,600 invalid and counterfeit" tickets at the O2. This is virtually 10 a day every day (and of course I don't think they've got a big gig every day).

Those poor individuals will lose all travel costs and have perhaps taken accommodation (in London) and ...more to the point...will not see whatever it was they have paid premium price to see. Yes they get their money back for the ticket as they have bought through the quote big 4 re-sellers unquote but it's hard to see how these companies can have any credibility if (on average) every night there are 10 confrontations at the gate between people holding these counterfeit and invalid tickets and security staff.

Don't understand. What do you mean caught out ? I've never allowed myself to fall foul of any of the operators in the secondary market, I'm not that stupid or desperate. I remember once phoning up SEATWAVE, speaking to a manager or supervisor type, and basically saying that I was interested in a particular pair of tickets, which were in a floor block at the O2. It was block A3. I think it was row B. I know that the seat numbers in the three floor blocks go as follows: 1-14 in A1, 18-37 in A2, and 41-54 in A3. So all I was saying to him was that I would be interested in buying these tickets if the seat numbers were to be in the low 40s (the inside of the block), but not the high 50s (the extreme outside of the block). He refused to divulge the seat numbers (stated it was against SEATWAVE policy - even though they KNEW what they were obviously), and so I had no choice but to refuse to buy the tickets. I would have paid the inflated price, but only on the proviso that I knew where I was going to be sat.

It does seem completely insane to me that these companies have a policy of not divulging this crucial (for some individuals at any rate) information to prospective purchasers, even though they are actually in possession of it. And if they're not in possession of it, then that essentially tells you that all they're doing is selling you a guarantee that they will provide you with a seat/seats within an approximate area, because they are seats that are part of an allocation to them from the primary vendor .... but rows and seat numbers are not specified. So think about it, what does that tell you ? If you've even got just 2 grammes of grey matter in your head, it should simply tell you what any sane individual could figure out for themselves, that the primary vendors simply allocate whole swathes of seats to their selected and approved re-sellers ... thus effectively denying the buying public the opportunity of ever acquiring them at face value.

Fair ? Transparent ? Market forces ?

No, none of the above !!

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Here's an example, looking on Wednesday 10th December for the WHO tickets at the O2 Arena for Wednesday 17th ....... block 112. NO row or seat numbers quoted.

So where the f**k within the entire block 112 are these seats ?

[www.seatwave.com]

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Quote
paulywaul
Here's an example, looking on Wednesday 10th December for the WHO tickets at the O2 Arena for Wednesday 17th ....... block 112. NO row or seat numbers quoted.

So where the f**k within the entire block 112 are these seats ?

[www.seatwave.com]

O ... and of course I neglected to mention, that for the privilege of buying a seat that the seller sees fit not to actually identify for you, merely stating that it is somewhere within a block of approximately 650 seats in any one of 24 separate rows ... you're expected to pay three times face value !!

Forgive me for thinking this is not as it should be !!

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

"Don't understand. What do you mean caught out ? I've never allowed myself to fall foul of any of the operators in the secondary market, I'm not that stupid or desperate."

Smile...no I don't think you are stupid or desperate Pauly and unlikely to be dumb enough to get caught out. But you might be unlucky. My point is I'm just staggered that 3600 people every year (and this just at the O2 London) are dumb enough or just plain unlucky. I make that 10 people every night (and this is assuming there is a sold out concert every night of the year)

I'm struggling to believe this statistic because if it's correct I'm just imagining all the clashes with security staff every night from these poor people, believing they have a valid ticket bought from StubHub Viagogo etc and then being turned away

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exhpart
"Don't understand. What do you mean caught out ? I've never allowed myself to fall foul of any of the operators in the secondary market, I'm not that stupid or desperate."

Smile...no I don't think you are stupid or desperate Pauly and unlikely to be dumb enough to get caught out. But you might be unlucky. My point is I'm just staggered that 3600 people every year (and this just at the O2 London) are dumb enough or just plain unlucky. I make that 10 people every night (and this is assuming there is a sold out concert every night of the year)

I'm struggling to believe this statistic because if it's correct I'm just imagining all the clashes with security staff every night from these poor people, believing they have a valid ticket bought from StubHub Viagogo etc and then being turned away

Yes I agree, it is a somewhat staggering statistic really, is it not ?

I am currently looking for WHO tickets for day after tomorrow, the 17th. Needless to say there's the usual bunch of optimists on all the secondary sites asking for four figure sums for a ticket in the A blocks on the floor !! Yeah RIGHT !! Dream on fools ....... !!

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

This should be interesting ..........

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Seems as if the tide might FINALLY be turning ........

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

[www.independent.co.uk]

Worth reading .........

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

More than 80 leading representatives of the music, sport and theatre industries today call on the Government to crack down on "unscrupulous" practices in the secondary ticketing industry which they claim are ripping off fans and damaging artists and sportspeople.

In an open letter, (published below) the signatories – including music promoter Harvey Goldsmith, Iron Maiden, the Arctic Monkeys and the managers of One Direction, as well as the National Theatre, the Lawn Tennis Association, the Rugby Football Union and the England and Wales Cricket Board – call on ministers to give greater protection to fans rather than buy-and-sell ticket platforms such as Viagogo, StubHub, Get Me In! and Seatwave.

Ministers will attempt to block a clause in the Consumer Rights Bill, voted on in the Commons tomorrow, which would force the sites to provide information including the face value of the ticket, the identity of the seller and whether a re-sale breaches terms and conditions. The clause was backed in the House of Lords last year but the Government last night indicated it would strip it out, saying the measure would "overburden individual fans with red tape".

In 2011 Sajid Javid, now Secretary of State for Culture, said secondary-ticketing websites were "classic entrepreneurs". But in 2012 Channel 4's Dispatches: The Great Ticket Scandal exposed how secondary platforms court major ticket touts and take allocations directly from promoters to sell on, above face value, to unsuspecting consumers.

A year later a report by Operation Podium, the Metropolitan Police unit set up to tackle London Olympics-related crime, found that "due to the surreptitious way that large numbers of "primary" tickets are diverted straight on to secondary-ticket websites, members of the public have little choice but to try to source tickets on the secondary ticket market". It said, "the lack of legislation outlawing unauthorised resale of tickets and the absence of regulation of the primary and secondary-ticket market encourages unscrupulous practices, a lack of transparency and fraud".

The greater protections were first recommended in a report by the all-party group on ticket abuse last year, led by Labour's Sharon Hodgson and Conservative Mike Weatherley.

Ms Hodgson said: "The debate tomorrow boils down to who Ministers want to listen to: are they going to listen to consumers, the police and the live event industry, who are all telling them we need transparency, or are they going to listen to the handful of people and companies who are making lots of money as a result of the current murkiness and underhand dealings in the market?"

A reporter from this newspaper attempted to buy tickets for a One Direction concert at the O2 Arena on Saturday 26 September 2015. The venue's own website says the performance is sold out, but recommends "StubHub, the Official Ticket Resale Marketplace of The O2". On StubHub there are hundreds of tickets available for this show and others in the tour, suggesting huge allocations go directly to the platform. Original prices for that night were from £46.50 to £75.00; StubHub is selling them at between £118 and £1,829. Only when the reporter reached the payment page was the face value of the original ticket revealed.

Seatwave sells tickets for the gig at between £100 and £350 – yet again there are hundreds available – while Get Me In! prices them up to £330. Both websites provide details of the tickets' face values. Viagogo has no tickets for the Saturday performance but offers hundreds for other dates. It does not provide details of face value. None of the websites say whether resale flouts the original seller's conditions; the firms did not respond to requests for comment last night. A statement on StubHub's website reads: "We're a marketplace, which means the tickets on our site are listed by other fans and may be priced above face value. It's against the rules for sellers to include contact info in their ticket listings."

A Government spokesman said: "We want to strike the right balance between protecting consumers and allowing them to sell on tickets that they are no longer able to use."

An open letter

As representatives from the live event industry, responsible for putting on shows ranging from international sporting fixtures and world class theatre to intimate gigs, we are committed to ensuring that event-goers have the best experience possible at a fair price.

The way that the secondary ticketing market is allowed to operate at present can seriously undermine that effort.

It’s almost three years since Channel 4’s Dispatches: The Great Ticket Scandal exposed how secondary platforms court major ticket touts and take allocations directly from promoters to sell on above face value to unsuspecting consumers.

And it’s almost 2 years since Operation Podium, the Police unit set up to tackle Olympics-related crime, produced a report calling for legislation to tackle “unscrupulous practices, a lack of transparency and fraud” within the secondary market.

Tomorrow, the House of Commons has the chance to pass that legislation.

Clause 33 of the Consumer Rights Bill would give consumers looking for tickets basic information which the secondary platforms have been so keen to hide: who they’re buying from, the face value of the ticket, the seat number and, importantly, whether that ticket is being sold in contravention of its terms and conditions.

Sadly, the Government tried to block this Clause in the Lords, and want to strip it out of the Bill in the Commons tomorrow.

If the secondary platforms have nothing to fear from transparency, they have nothing to fear from these simple provisions.

It’s high time the Government stopped sticking up for them, and decided to put fans first.

Adam Brown, Brownstock

Ali McLean, DHP Concerts / No Tomorrow Festival

Andy Bell, Festibelly

Andy Smith, Kendal Calling

Angus Baskerville and Charlie Myatt, 13 Artists

Anthony Addis, Brontone Management

Barry Drinkwater, Global Merchandising Solutions

Brian Havill, England and Wales Cricket Board

Bullet For My Valentine

Cancer Bats

Caroline Maclennan, Hebridean Celtic Festival

Chris Tofu, London Remixed Festival

Craig Jennings and Don Jenkins, Raw Power Management

Dave Newton, WeGotTickets

Emma Banks and Mike Greek, Creative Artists Agency

Emma Boggis, Sport and Recreation Alliance

Freddie Fellowes, The Secret Garden Party

Gallows

Geoff Meall, The Agency Group

Harvey Goldsmith CBE

Hugh Phillimore, Cornbury Festival

Ian McAndrew, Wildlife Entertainment

Ian Ritchie, Rugby Football Union

James Scarlett, ArcTanGent

Jane Beese, Meltdown

Jeff Craft, X-Ray Touring

Jim Winship, The Event Services Association

Jo Dipple, UK Music

Joe Buirski, Fire in the Mountain

Joe Gibbs, Belladrum Tartan Heart

John Empson, Eden Sessions

John F. Smith, Musicians Union

John Jackson, K2 Agency

John Rostron, SWN Festival

Jon Webster, Music Managers Forum

Joshua Sanger, Barn On The Farm

Julia Calver, UK Centre for Events Management

Julian Bird, Society of London Theatre

Kate Hewett, Tramlines

Katherine Goodenough, Greenbelt Festival

Lee Denny, Leefest

Lisa Burger, National Theatre

Martin Laws, Pangaea

Michael Downey, Lawn Tennis Association

Moose Blood

Nicholas Crow, Fling Festival

Nick Chambers, Beat-Herder Festival

Nick Mason (Pink Floyd), Ed O'Brien (Radiohead), and Sandie Shaw, Co-Chairs, Featured Artists Coalition

Nick Tanner, Glastonbudget

Nick Thomas, HQ Theatres & Hospitality Ltd

Oliver Jones, Deer Shed Festival

Oscar Thornton, Farr Festival

Pablo Janczur, Brecon Jazz

Paul Bliss, Blissfields

Paul Flower, Profound Media & Management

Paul Reed, Association of Independent Festivals

Paul Roberts, Phil McIntyre Entertainment

Peter Davies, Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Cymru

Peter Elliott, Primary Talent International Agency

Peter Nosworthy, Nozstock Festival

Rachel Tackley, UK Theatre Association

Ralph Broadbent, Truck

Ralph Broadbent, Y-Not Festival

Reece Miller, We Are FSTVL

Richard Griffiths, Modest Management

Rob Challice, Coda Agency and Larmer Tree Festival

Rob Da Bank, Bestival/Camp Bestival

Rod Smallwood, Phantom Music Management

Roger Tomlinson and Andrew Thomas, The Ticketing Institute

Roger Woodhall, Bournemouth 7s

Sam Eldridge, Urok Management

Sean McLoughlin, Village Green

Sidharth Sharma, Shambala

Simon Maltas, 2000 Trees

Simon Watson, Sidewinder Management

Sofia Hagberg, End of the Road Festival

Stuart Galbraith, Kilimanjaro Live and Sonisphere

Turbowolf

While She Sleeps

Will Brown, In the Woods Festival

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

Anyone who even tries to buy a ticket through Seatwave, Viagogo, Stubhub is just asking to be ripped off. They have never, and will never get a penny off of me. A fool is easily parted with his money, and there are plenty of mugs out there that keep these rats in business. The secondary market is of course controlled by the likes of Ticketmaster.

I love it when they announce that a gig has sold out in 0.2 seconds, and then two months later they declare that a new batch of tickets have appeared out of nowhere. What they mean is that they have not been able to sell them on the secondary market at rip off prices, so they are now prepared to sell them at face. It wouldn't surprise me if greedy bastard bands like The Stones, and their promoters are in on it!