Tell Me :
Talk
Different versions don't worry me that much and like I said, enjoyed the show, maybe Melbourne had a few more glitches than normal, maybe glitches are a normal thing for the Stones, haven't seen enough Stones shows to tell, they don't come here a hell of a lot.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-11-23 09:45 by lapaz62.
So why do they play it only occasionally, then?
JJF is a warhorse, YGMR is not.
Look at the figures from 1994 onwards. It's pretty far from " occasionally " .
If not playing a song all of the time for 1 tour causes warhorse status to be lost,then " YCAGWYW " would have lost its status in ( or by ) 1999.
It is going to take another tour or two of not being performed for " You Got Me Rocking " to lose its status as a warhorse.
Even if that somehow happens,its place in the history of live Stones' concerts will not be re-written. It would,in that unlikely set of events,just lose its status as a CURRENT warhorse. You can't change history once it is in the past.
And,by the way,it is easy to mess with you because,it seems that you are always h**l bent on having the last word.
They play it too much. That 12-12-12 concert, whatever that was, they played it. One of two songs. That's ridiculous.
I really can't understand why anyone would want to hear them play JJF. It's simply awful when they play it. It has been for decades.
So that's a piss break for me, especially if I ever go see them again.
I never said they didn't play it too much
If they make it the replacement Mick Taylor "guest spot", it might..
HA HA! I haven't seen them since 1994! It was on the way home!
So... they do play it too much. WARHORSE! WARHORSE! I tol' ya! SEE? HA HA!
More like a playing pony. Come to think of it, it's not even that.
Your point is based on false information. IT HAS been played regularly on every tour 1994 through some point in 2006. That made FIVE tours in a row. Even when it was dropped in 2006,it was not long before it made its way back.
It was played more on those 5 tours than You Can't Always Get What You Want (not played in 1994,very few times in 1995,not at all in 1999,not in arenas during 2002), + Miss You (not played in 1999,only around five or six times in 2002/2003 out of 110 plus shows), + Gimme Shelter (not played once in 2005 or much at all for the rest of the A.B.B. Tour / not played in '94), more than Rambler,more than Paint It Black,probably not as far behind Sympathy as you might think.
Those are FIVE consecutive tours. It's not some small sample of concerts. 5 tours with a large number of shows.
My math IS NOT dubious. It is fact. You can't debate what they played. It happened regardless if you accept it or not.
All of the numbers of songs performed by tour through 2003 were listed on the old "Love You Live" web-site. I am not going to waste any more time by compiling the exact numbers.
FIVE tours over a span of nearly a dozen years ('94-'06) IS NOT a " relatively short span of time " in my book. This is especially true if you would consider the pure number of concerts which they played during that period. Can you accept that this is my view and that it is supported by facts ??
I think that playing "You Got Me Rocking" at nearly every show,if not every show in (for example) 2005 carries much more weight than not playing it at 5 shows in 2012. By the way,look at the end of the 14 On Fire Tour. Guess what song made its way back.
I know that " You Got Me Rocking " was not played once before 1994. That's because it was not invented yet.
Like I said before,I do not believe that resting a song or easing up on playing a song for ONE tour causes that song to automatically lose warhorse status.
If that were the case,YCAGWYW would be out of the list of warhorses because of 1978,1994,most of 1995,1999 (without even considering the 2002 arena concerts when they did not play it).
Miss You would be out of the list because of 1999-2003. Satisfaction would be out because of the '70's and 1999. Sympathy would be out because of the first half of the '94 tour and because of '71-'82. IORR would be out because of '78-'82.
At least apply the same standard to all of the songs.
If we are going to be that strict with the standard,only Brown Sugar and Jumping Jack Flash would be the true warhorses.
Maybe Honkey Tonk Women as well but,hey,it was rare on the '72 tour. Maybe Tumbling Dice but,wow,wasn't there a time in 1976 when they didn't play it ??
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: November 23, 2014 01:52
The Stones have made YGMR a warhorse.
And that... is that.
And that... is that.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
lapaz62
()
Date: November 23, 2014 09:00
Quote
gripweedQuote
lapaz62
It's a bit sad that full time professional musicians can't do a better job than that. I enjoyed the Melbourne show while I was there but when I listened back to the audio it really wasn't as good as I first thought. Mistakes, timing issues and some songs sounding not even close to the originals, a little more care in the playing and a little less running around might help.
You're kidding right?? The Stones have hardly ever performed songs live as they were recorded (Originals)... Live interpretations of songs are one of the main reasons I go to see a band perform... you have the record if you want that version... different musicians on these recordings, having played most of these 1,000's of time are just two of the reasons these aren't 100% like the "Originals"
I thought you would have been happy just to see and hear the Stones with MT after all the postponements of the past year or so... SMH
Different versions don't worry me that much and like I said, enjoyed the show, maybe Melbourne had a few more glitches than normal, maybe glitches are a normal thing for the Stones, haven't seen enough Stones shows to tell, they don't come here a hell of a lot.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-11-23 09:45 by lapaz62.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 23, 2014 10:56
Quote
GasLightStreet
The Stones have made YGMR a warhorse.
And that... is that.
So why do they play it only occasionally, then?
JJF is a warhorse, YGMR is not.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
Winning Ugly VXII
()
Date: November 23, 2014 19:38
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
GasLightStreet
The Stones have made YGMR a warhorse.
And that... is that.
So why do they play it only occasionally, then?
JJF is a warhorse, YGMR is not.
Look at the figures from 1994 onwards. It's pretty far from " occasionally " .
If not playing a song all of the time for 1 tour causes warhorse status to be lost,then " YCAGWYW " would have lost its status in ( or by ) 1999.
It is going to take another tour or two of not being performed for " You Got Me Rocking " to lose its status as a warhorse.
Even if that somehow happens,its place in the history of live Stones' concerts will not be re-written. It would,in that unlikely set of events,just lose its status as a CURRENT warhorse. You can't change history once it is in the past.
And,by the way,it is easy to mess with you because,it seems that you are always h**l bent on having the last word.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 23, 2014 20:11
Some numbers win the crowd over EVERY night, some are played often but are not the songs they ALWAYS build their shows around. Agree?
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: November 23, 2014 20:13
Myself limited for the time being to writing on a mobile and dependent at that for the rest of the month on doing so in WiFi with a time limit.
Having had one medium long post aborted by that time limit already, now only this:
It is not obvious that frequencies of being part of concert setlists is the only or the principal criterium for 'warhorse' status. Some might agree with you it should be. You, Winning Ugly VXII, may take into consideration that others may disagree.
And, in passing, I am quite certain that to discuss with Dandelion is definitely a bigger challenge when he is equipped with a PC than a mobile.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-11-23 20:17 by Witness.
Having had one medium long post aborted by that time limit already, now only this:
It is not obvious that frequencies of being part of concert setlists is the only or the principal criterium for 'warhorse' status. Some might agree with you it should be. You, Winning Ugly VXII, may take into consideration that others may disagree.
And, in passing, I am quite certain that to discuss with Dandelion is definitely a bigger challenge when he is equipped with a PC than a mobile.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-11-23 20:17 by Witness.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 23, 2014 20:16
I use my Android, too, Witness
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 23, 2014 20:21
To repeat my point, Witness, a song from 1994 that hasn't even been played regularly on every tour hasn't yet grown to be a warhorse. On this tour it has been played sporadically. It's not the song that the Stones would go to war with, to put it mildly
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: November 23, 2014 20:26
"Start Me Up" - to me rather strange - is probably the latest song that ever may be warhorse, I guess.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 23, 2014 20:29
OOC will probably be a warhorse on the 2050-tour
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: November 23, 2014 20:59
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
GasLightStreet
The Stones have made YGMR a warhorse.
And that... is that.
So why do they play it only occasionally, then?
JJF is a warhorse, YGMR is not.
They play it too much. That 12-12-12 concert, whatever that was, they played it. One of two songs. That's ridiculous.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: November 23, 2014 21:02
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Some numbers win the crowd over EVERY night, some are played often but are not the songs they ALWAYS build their shows around. Agree?
I really can't understand why anyone would want to hear them play JJF. It's simply awful when they play it. It has been for decades.
So that's a piss break for me, especially if I ever go see them again.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 23, 2014 21:03
You're starting the shows on the John, Skip?
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 23, 2014 21:05
Quote
GasLightStreetQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
GasLightStreet
The Stones have made YGMR a warhorse.
And that... is that.
So why do they play it only occasionally, then?
JJF is a warhorse, YGMR is not.
They play it too much. That 12-12-12 concert, whatever that was, they played it. One of two songs. That's ridiculous.
I never said they didn't play it too much
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
SweetThing
()
Date: November 23, 2014 21:11
Quote
DandelionPowderman
OOC will probably be a warhorse on the 2050-tour
If they make it the replacement Mick Taylor "guest spot", it might..
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 23, 2014 21:12
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: November 23, 2014 21:19
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You're starting the shows on the John, Skip?
HA HA! I haven't seen them since 1994! It was on the way home!
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: November 23, 2014 21:20
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
GasLightStreetQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
GasLightStreet
The Stones have made YGMR a warhorse.
And that... is that.
So why do they play it only occasionally, then?
JJF is a warhorse, YGMR is not.
They play it too much. That 12-12-12 concert, whatever that was, they played it. One of two songs. That's ridiculous.
I never said they didn't play it too much
So... they do play it too much. WARHORSE! WARHORSE! I tol' ya! SEE? HA HA!
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 24, 2014 00:56
Quote
GasLightStreetQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
GasLightStreetQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
GasLightStreet
The Stones have made YGMR a warhorse.
And that... is that.
So why do they play it only occasionally, then?
JJF is a warhorse, YGMR is not.
They play it too much. That 12-12-12 concert, whatever that was, they played it. One of two songs. That's ridiculous.
I never said they didn't play it too much
So... they do play it too much. WARHORSE! WARHORSE! I tol' ya! SEE? HA HA!
More like a playing pony. Come to think of it, it's not even that.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
Winning Ugly VXII
()
Date: November 24, 2014 05:07
Quote
DandelionPowderman
To repeat my point, Witness, a song from 1994 that hasn't even been played regularly on every tour hasn't yet grown to be a warhorse. On this tour it has been played sporadically. It's not the song that the Stones would go to war with, to put it mildly
Your point is based on false information. IT HAS been played regularly on every tour 1994 through some point in 2006. That made FIVE tours in a row. Even when it was dropped in 2006,it was not long before it made its way back.
It was played more on those 5 tours than You Can't Always Get What You Want (not played in 1994,very few times in 1995,not at all in 1999,not in arenas during 2002), + Miss You (not played in 1999,only around five or six times in 2002/2003 out of 110 plus shows), + Gimme Shelter (not played once in 2005 or much at all for the rest of the A.B.B. Tour / not played in '94), more than Rambler,more than Paint It Black,probably not as far behind Sympathy as you might think.
Those are FIVE consecutive tours. It's not some small sample of concerts. 5 tours with a large number of shows.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 24, 2014 10:55
Your math is dubious at best. It's almost like you believe that there wasn't a world before 1994, when all the warhorses were bred up.
YGMR has not been played regularly on the 2012-2014 tour, hence it ISN'T a warhorse. It has not been played more often than Gimmie Shelter, YCAGWYW, Miss You or the others during the years, of course.
You can keep on saying that playing a song often over a relatively short span of time defines a warhorse, but I don't agree with that, ok?
PS: The Stones have done way more than five tours. Your statistical selection is dubious, too.
YGMR has not been played regularly on the 2012-2014 tour, hence it ISN'T a warhorse. It has not been played more often than Gimmie Shelter, YCAGWYW, Miss You or the others during the years, of course.
You can keep on saying that playing a song often over a relatively short span of time defines a warhorse, but I don't agree with that, ok?
PS: The Stones have done way more than five tours. Your statistical selection is dubious, too.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
Winning Ugly VXII
()
Date: November 24, 2014 17:49
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Your math is dubious at best. It's almost like you believe that there wasn't a world before 1994, when all the warhorses were bred up.
YGMR has not been played regularly on the 2012-2014 tour, hence it ISN'T a warhorse. It has not been played more often than Gimmie Shelter, YCAGWYW, Miss You or the others during the years, of course.
You can keep on saying that playing a song often over a relatively short span of time defines a warhorse, but I don't agree with that, ok?
PS: The Stones have done way more than five tours. Your statistical selection is dubious, too.
My math IS NOT dubious. It is fact. You can't debate what they played. It happened regardless if you accept it or not.
All of the numbers of songs performed by tour through 2003 were listed on the old "Love You Live" web-site. I am not going to waste any more time by compiling the exact numbers.
FIVE tours over a span of nearly a dozen years ('94-'06) IS NOT a " relatively short span of time " in my book. This is especially true if you would consider the pure number of concerts which they played during that period. Can you accept that this is my view and that it is supported by facts ??
I think that playing "You Got Me Rocking" at nearly every show,if not every show in (for example) 2005 carries much more weight than not playing it at 5 shows in 2012. By the way,look at the end of the 14 On Fire Tour. Guess what song made its way back.
I know that " You Got Me Rocking " was not played once before 1994. That's because it was not invented yet.
Like I said before,I do not believe that resting a song or easing up on playing a song for ONE tour causes that song to automatically lose warhorse status.
If that were the case,YCAGWYW would be out of the list of warhorses because of 1978,1994,most of 1995,1999 (without even considering the 2002 arena concerts when they did not play it).
Miss You would be out of the list because of 1999-2003. Satisfaction would be out because of the '70's and 1999. Sympathy would be out because of the first half of the '94 tour and because of '71-'82. IORR would be out because of '78-'82.
At least apply the same standard to all of the songs.
If we are going to be that strict with the standard,only Brown Sugar and Jumping Jack Flash would be the true warhorses.
Maybe Honkey Tonk Women as well but,hey,it was rare on the '72 tour. Maybe Tumbling Dice but,wow,wasn't there a time in 1976 when they didn't play it ??
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 24, 2014 19:59
Believe what you want.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: November 24, 2014 20:55
For some time using a PC at the office, before now leaving.
Quote
schillidQuote
Winning Ugly VXIIQuote
Witness
Anyway, sometimes it is wonderful with some passion.
I can't claim to be incontestably right in the following and consequently I will run the risk of passing as one that has no idea of what I am talking about. Be that as it may:
I think that warhorse is not necessarily a pure and welldefined statistical concept. Rather it applies to songs that are relatively wellknown in the minds of the concertgoers as Stones-songs.
If you go by that standard for a warhorse,then " Emotional Rescue " , " Time Is On My Side " ( despite that it is not an original Stones composition ), and " Waiting On A Friend" would be considered as warhorses ..... which they are not ..... as far as I know.
Anyway,I didn't mean to mess up this thread. This part of it may need to be separated out into another thread.
I just can't stand revisionist history. I also can't stand the claim of people who say these warhorses are their best songs because,when it comes down to it,I believe that they would be saying the same thing if the list of warhorses was slightly different.
It depends. On what? On what is meant with relatively wellknown in the minds of concertgoers as Stones songs. With what I myself understand by relatively wellknown, your examples will not be taken to be warhorses.
Unprecise as it is, presented as such, I think many posters may disagree mutually as to some of the candidates to be warhorses. However, my guess is that very few will think about "You Got Me Rocking" as a warhorse. My impression is that the term never was meant to be a statistical concept, against which was to measured empirically absolute and relative frequencies for songs to having been included in setlists.
I think the IORR-term 'warhorse' in case, if its meaning is to be circled in the way I have understood posts, has to be determined in two stages. The first and principal one, is that a song has to be regarded as suitably wellknown by concertgoers as Stones songs. That may result in a list of possible warhorses. And a complementary list of songs that are not-possible-warhorses. (Again there will be disagreement on as much as the use of this first stage (or principal) criterium.) Then we enter the second stage. There is introduced an impression, probably more that than exact frequencies in a hardcore sense, of songs that are played often. Then from the contested and maybe changing list of possible warhorses, songs may be taken as a) current actual warhorses, b) once actual warhorses that have fallen out, but with a capacity either to reenter or not reenter the actual warhorses, c) songs, for some time outside, that has succeded in regaining a status as actual warhorses, d) possibly some wellknown song(s), never before a warhorse, might be made a warhorse.
However, a song has first to be a wellknown song. Even "Undercover of the Night" would have some difficulty in being made a warhorse now. The only course I see for a song from later than "Start Me Up" now to become a warhorse, and I doubt that it may happen, I think would be if the band made a studio album now that was a massive commercial success, and had one immensely popular song that could made a warhorse.
You may legitimately disagree in my criteria (or "criteria" ), of course. Vague as they are, my hypothesis is that they capture quite much of what warhorses mean for many IORR-posters.
Whether it is my thinking or the idea of naming " You Got Me Rocking" as warhorse, which is more revisionist I leave to others to judge. Outside this issue, as far as Stones goes, I like to meet some revisions of views. And finally, to me, best songs and best known songs of the Stones are not completely identical, However, some relation there is between them.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-11-24 20:57 by Witness.
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
EJM
()
Date: November 24, 2014 21:45
So
are there any keith songs( defined for these purposes as songs keith sings the lead on ) which can be defined as" war horses " or is this a contradiction in terms - lets put up Happy or you got the silver as possibilities for debate ....
are there any keith songs( defined for these purposes as songs keith sings the lead on ) which can be defined as" war horses " or is this a contradiction in terms - lets put up Happy or you got the silver as possibilities for debate ....
Re: Did Mick Taylor perform on Silver Train last night?
Posted by:
Winning Ugly VXII
()
Date: November 25, 2014 09:36
" You Got the Silver " is definitely not a warhorse yet. It has only ever been performed live in 1999 , 2006 , 2007 , 2013 , and 2014 . It is making a very late run in that direction,however.
The bar has to be set a bit lower for a Richards lead vocal warhorse because he has varied his set quite a bit. There are not very many Stones songs with Richards on lead vocals which he hasn't yet played in concert with the Stones. " Coming Down Again " is the most notable exception along with only a few others.
The warhorse candidates would be " Happy " and " Before They Make Me Run " . " Slipping Away " was close to that territory at one point but then he eased off of it. Maybe we could call " Slipping Away " a warhorse in Japan only (with Europe not far behind) ? .
The bar has to be set a bit lower for a Richards lead vocal warhorse because he has varied his set quite a bit. There are not very many Stones songs with Richards on lead vocals which he hasn't yet played in concert with the Stones. " Coming Down Again " is the most notable exception along with only a few others.
The warhorse candidates would be " Happy " and " Before They Make Me Run " . " Slipping Away " was close to that territory at one point but then he eased off of it. Maybe we could call " Slipping Away " a warhorse in Japan only (with Europe not far behind) ? .
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