Keith always made a huge deal out of Mick doing his solo albums in the 80s. Why was it viewed as such an insult? Ronnie and Bill had already done solo projects at this point. Mick even sings on I Can Feel The Fire.

Was it just the hostility between the glimmer twins?

I believe it wasn't the recording of Mick's album that bothered Keith as much as it was the fact that Mick wanted to do a solo tour to promote it instead of going on tour with The Rolling Stones.

To me the drama was only invented by outsiders.

Because Mick wouldn't tour in 83 or in 85, allegedly signed a solo deal behind the band's back and communicated through his secretary that he didn't know if he'd ever work with Keith or the band again.

Because Keith knew it would be terrible? Mick didn't get it right until WANDERING SPIRIT. GITDoorway is not as bad as Keith states - it's still better than Mick's first two solo albums.

nothing wrong with any band members doing solo projects, in the long run it probably kept the band together longer than it would have had if they had never went out on thier own. they would have got fed up with being in the rolling stones a long time ago if they hadnt taken a proffesional break from one another.

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Koen
To me the drama was only invented by outsiders.

To me most of the drama was started by Keith whenever Mick would record and release a solo album. He'd publicly bash the record (remember he called 2001's Goddess in the Doorway his version, Dog Sh*t in the Doorway) and add fuel to the fire by writing songs aimed toward Mick ('You Don't Move Me'). Mick in turn would reply back in song, usually ('Shoot Off Your Mouth').

But like Drake said, Keith was fine with Ronnie doing his rock albums, Bill doing his disco-pop-synth...stuff...Charlie doing his jazz and experimental music, it's always Mick's solo endeavors that offend him...

Ego x politics (status and/or money) gives (explosions of) drama.

Why KR allowed himself to record albums and do tours while MJ is being put down for it? Even KR himself can't explain. At some point KR's creative force melted down and frustration (of being not productive as a heroin junkie first and after that as an alcohol junkie & not being able to be happy with or without the RS) took over and turned into ridiculing MJ and those childish forms of hate culminating in todgergate.

Meanwhile MJ took care of the status: planning the whole thing for decades made him aware of what needs to be done in all situations to keep the ship going in the right direction. He's a diplomat and a smart organizer as well as the undisputed entertainer of two centuries.

While many believe Mick is the big ego it's in fact KR who is far more self-centered in situations like this. He doesn't give in and is basically very jealous; he can record and tour but Mick can't..

Yes, maybe MJ is a nice bunch of guys.
But he proved to be much more constructive and reliable to keep the Stones Rolling.
With Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde or even Captain Teague the ship would not have been seaworthy for much longer after 1974/75.

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BeforeTheyMakeMeRun

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Koen
To me the drama was only invented by outsiders.

To me most of the drama was started by Keith whenever Mick would record and release a solo album. He'd publicly bash the record (remember he called 2001's Goddess in the Doorway his version, Dog Sh*t in the Doorway) and add fuel to the fire by writing songs aimed toward Mick ('You Don't Move Me'). Mick in turn would reply back in song, usually ('Shoot Off Your Mouth').

But like Drake said, Keith was fine with Ronnie doing his rock albums, Bill doing his disco-pop-synth...stuff...Charlie doing his jazz and experimental music, it's always Mick's solo endeavors that offend him...

Maybe it was because Mick is really the only one who matters to him; who is his rival, and his closest brother. So a lot was competion, and the fear that Mick might not need him.

I mean - Ronnie wasn't even a Stone yet; plus he let Keith play and sing as much as hde wanted on those solo albums; Bil...Keith knew he had nothing to fear about from Bill. Didnt even like him. And Charlie's jaazz? so far removed from the Stones that it didnt matter. Mick was the only one who COULD have made an album better than a Stones record.

<<Mick was the only one who COULD have made an album better than a Stones record.>>

Or blow all the best of his most recent compositions for something other than a Stones record.

If you combine Main Offender and Wandering Spirit--that should have been the Stones album of 1994.

Hasn't anyone ever wondered what Take It So Hard would have sounded like with Mick singing and Charlie rather than Steve Jordan playing drums behind it?

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stonehearted
<<Mick was the only one who COULD have made an album better than a Stones record.>>

Or blow all the best of his most recent compositions for something other than a Stones record.

If you combine Main Offender and Wandering Spirit--that should have been the Stones album of 1994.

Hasn't anyone ever wondered what Take It So Hard would have sounded like with Mick singing and Charlie rather than Steve Jordan playing drums behind it?

I did wonder what Sweet Thing would have sounded like with KR on vocals

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mighty stork
I believe it wasn't the recording of Mick's album that bothered Keith as much as it was the fact that Mick wanted to do a solo tour to promote it instead of going on tour with The Rolling Stones.

It seems to be accepted that it was pretty reasonable that Mick should take a break but Wasn't the big issues not just that that mick used his good song ideas for his solo album but that he toured largely Rolling Stones songs using a hired band (with an "imitation keef" ) as opposed to touring the songs from his solo album and also that he toured in territories which were hungry for the stones (eg Japan) thus potentially spoiling a lucrative market for the stones later.

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Koen
To me the drama was only invented by outsiders.

yeah no, there was drama.

The reason was because Mick wanted to promote his solo album and tour INSTEAD of the stones.

I think KR acted as if Mick's sole responsibility was to the stones, which is interesting considering the KR put drugs first for the better part of a decade.

Anyway, water under the bridge.

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Dreamer

I did wonder what Sweet Thing would have sounded like with KR on vocals

For a start it would be twice slower and half-a-scale lower. Keef can't sing that fast or that high!

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dcba

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Dreamer

I did wonder what Sweet Thing would have sounded like with KR on vocals

For a start it would be twice slower and half-a-scale lower. Keef can't sing that fast or that high!

I think what's missing from the solo albums is a good Keef falsetto.

Here's hoping we get one in the summer of 2015!

I think what upset Keith was that, during the Dirty Work era particularly, Mick didn't much to the table songwriting wise, and that he may have been saving his best material for the solo albums.

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tomcasagranda
I think what upset Keith was that, during the Dirty Work era particularly, Mick didn't much to the table songwriting wise, and that he may have been saving his best material for the solo albums.

AH...that's why "Turn The Girl Loose" never ended up on Dirty Work!

Mick saw an opportunity to keep it all to himself!

So a lot was competion, and the fear that Mick might not need him.

Or blow all the best of his most recent compositions for something other than a Stones record.

Mick toured largely Rolling Stones songs using a hired band (with an "imitation keef" ) as opposed to touring the songs from his solo album

All three of those reasons ring true to me. I can only add what Keith mentioned in his book, that Mick made his record and touring deals "off the backs of the Stones", although I'm not quite sure what other qualifications and connections Mick could have used at that point. I can imagine however that Mick represented himself as someone who could be just as successful as the Stones by himself.

But surely a big part of it was based around money. Any break in the Rolling Stones money machine and Jagger/Richards songwriting was perceivably going to hurt Keith more than Mick since Mick was the defacto money guru.

And, it was likely Mick saying "you need me more than I need you", obviously a cause for some discomfort. Why it turned into drama? Immaturity and their inability to deal with uncomfortable and hurt feelings in a less dramatic way, of course.

peace

Stonehearted - I agree with you. I'd love to have Take It So Hard done by the Stones and from Mick's side how good would Don't Tear Me Up and some of the other songs off Wandering Spirit. They could have had a GREAT album. It was a missed opportunity. One of many from the last thirty years.

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Naturalust
Mick toured largely Rolling Stones songs using a hired band (with an "imitation keef" ) as opposed to touring the songs from his solo album

Yep, that there.
Mick saying in some interview that the Stones were "a millstone around [his] neck" didn't help.
Nor did signing his contract for the solo stuff without letting the band know.

At the time it didn't seem to be about a few solo albums; at the time it appeared that Mick wanted a solo career
in competition with the Stones rather than in between Stones projects. Of course it seemed dramatic.

PS The Rolling Stones have all made mistakes, just like the rest of us.
And I love the Rolling Stones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-11-01 14:46 by with sssoul.

"You already crapped out twice" Keith gloated, referring to Mick's first two solo albums as crap, on his own solo track, "You Don't Move Me."

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with sssoul

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Naturalust
Mick toured largely Rolling Stones songs using a hired band (with an "imitation keef" ) as opposed to touring the songs from his solo album

Yep, that there.
Mick saying in some interview that the Stones were "a millstone around [his] neck" didn't help.
Nor did signing his contract for the solo stuff without letting the band know.

At the time it didn't seem to be about a few solo albums; at the time it appeared that Mick wanted a solo career
in competition with the Stones rather than in between Stones projects. Of course it seemed dramatic.

PS The Rolling Stones have all made mistakes, just like the rest of us.
And I love the Rolling Stones.

And with Ronnie in the band they had the examples of the Small Faces and the Faces to consider, where lead singers' solo careers had not done their bands any good at all.

Keith wasn't the only one to suffer from the hiatus caused by Mick's solo efforts - Ronnie, Bill and Charlie were also on hold until Mick had finished doing his thing (and at the time they didn't know whether Mick's thing might turn out to be permanent.)

Hi Folks, coincidence!! just watched 2 DVD's of Micks solo tour for P/Cool,
Deep Down Under and MJ in JAPAN, Brilliant, WOW what a backing band, and TINA
makes an appearance.... pity BUT I can see(and hear) why KEITH had the hump

For Jagger It was a bit like being Larry Hagman who tried to play roles other than JR, cause probably he got fed up with some of the cast.
He will always be associated with Dallas, being the irreplaceable bad guy, just like Jagger ( as a Rolling Stone).

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tatters
"You already crapped out twice" Keith sang, referring to Mick's first two solo albums as crap, on his own solo track, "You Don't Move Me."

Actually that reference is to the dice game called craps. To crap out means to roll a losing number.
Keith loves wordplay, though, so I reckon other layers of meaning aren't accidental.

And with or without wordplay, You Don't Move Me is a fantastic track. Listen to those guitars!

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with sssoul

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tatters
"You already crapped out twice" Keith sang, referring to Mick's first two solo albums as crap, on his own solo track, "You Don't Move Me."

Actually that reference is to the dice game called craps. To crap out means to roll a losing number.
Keith loves wordplay, though, so I reckon other layers of meaning aren't accidental.

And with or without wordplay, You Don't Move Me is a fantastic track. Listen to those guitars!

"Now you wanna roll the dice" also means getting an album review in this context.

Brilliant song, brilliant lyrics.

Getting an album review? I always thought that he meant Mick wanted to give it yet another try after failing twice already, which didn't make that much sense, unless he was referring to a solo tour...

The "did a deal behind our back" is BS since a Mick solo album was part of the CBS deal. They were even decently chummy when they got together to start working on DW as can be heard on the "Hammingbird Disaster" tapes and as evidenced by their joint meals each night at the "Val d'Isère" restaurant before heading out to Boulogne. It's only when STB came out and Mick started doing all the promo rounds for the album that Keith got upset it seems. Then he refused to tour and things got blown out of proportion...

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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gotdablouse
Getting an album review? I always thought that he meant Mick wanted to give it yet another try after failing twice already, which didn't make that much sense, unless he was referring to a solo tour...

The "did a deal behind our back" is BS since a Mick solo album was part of the CBS deal. They were even decently chummy when they got together to start working on DW as can be heard on the "Hammingbird Disaster" tapes and as evidenced by their joint meals each night at the "Val d'Isère" restaurant before heading out to Boulogne. It's only when STB came out and Mick started doing all the promo rounds for the album that Keith got upset it seems. Then he refused to tour and things got blown out of proportion...

Thanks for bringing in some facts.
Especially in chronological order they are very interesting compared to the drama acted by captain Teague...and his crew of pirates.

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Dreamer

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gotdablouse
Getting an album review? I always thought that he meant Mick wanted to give it yet another try after failing twice already, which didn't make that much sense, unless he was referring to a solo tour...

The "did a deal behind our back" is BS since a Mick solo album was part of the CBS deal. They were even decently chummy when they got together to start working on DW as can be heard on the "Hammingbird Disaster" tapes and as evidenced by their joint meals each night at the "Val d'Isère" restaurant before heading out to Boulogne. It's only when STB came out and Mick started doing all the promo rounds for the album that Keith got upset it seems. Then he refused to tour and things got blown out of proportion...

Thanks for bringing in some facts.
Especially in chronological order they are very interesting compared to the drama acted by captain Teague...and his crew of pirates.

Yeah thanks...except now you're saying there actually is no good excuse for Dirty Work?!

The "did a deal behind our back" is BS since a Mick solo album was part of the CBS deal

Are you saying Keith knew about Mick's solo deal and was OK with it? And you specifically say "a" solo album, singular. Didn't Mick end up with a multi-album deal?

I still see how this could be a problem for Keith's vision of the Stones with the marketing and PR talent at record label spending their energy and resources promoting Mick and therefore, presumably, not the Stones.

In the end, it seems Mick was obviously out of touch with what made his music so popular...the interaction/collaboration with Keith, Bill, Mick Taylor and Charlie, imho. peace