Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Doxa

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<It has aged better than the poppish A-side "I Wanna be Your Man" (despite its screaming performance to hide its stupidness).>

Wow!

Well, I think the lyrics of "I Wanna Be Your man" are simply childish (Dylan made fun of them some day...) and the melody, with those mersey beat chord changes in the chorus, actually annoys me. A mediocre, if even bad pop song by nature (no wonder 'they' give it to Ringo to sing...). I think neither the Stones appreciated the song at all (of course, they know its commercial potentiality, Lennon-McCartney and everything...) and they sound like playing against it, and that 'punk' attitude - like that Pistlos dude once did to "My Way" - is what is so great in their version of the song. That tension between the form and the content. The Stones are 'raping' a pop song by their raw rhythm & blues.

- Doxa

The same thing can, to a degree, be said about Stoned. But after all, it is the outcome that matters, isn't it? Brian's guitar is like a chainsaw, sawing through your bone. Mick is sounding really freaky and scary in Stoned.

Both songs are splendidly performed in my book. Ringo and The Beatles' "happy naivity" is totally peeled off in IWBYM, imo. It's the real nitty gritty

Well, the same thing is that both are performed splendidly, pure rhythm & blues, a band hot from Crawdaddy. But in "Stoned" there is no silly pop song to be hidden there, so the form and content are in a par. I recall reading in some Stones biography that Paul and John were writing "I Wanna Be Your Man" after being inspired seeing the Stones at Crawdaddy. So it was supposed to be a rhythm and blues number. Sounds unlikely. But if true, John and Paul were damn weak writing rhythm & blues songs. A very far cry pastishe. But a perfect British comedy song for Ringo to sing, though... (But before The Beatles fans go to defend the greatest song-writer team of all time, let me just say that not everything Paul & John did was necessarily superb, or to admired by everybody.. Besides, if we look Mick and Keith's early pop ballad efforts, that sort of originality "I Wanna Be Your Man" has, set the bar quite high for them.. too high mostly.)

I think teh way the Stones, especially Jagger, approached "I Wanna Be Your man" in 2012, still shows that they can't take the song very seriously. Now it defintively sounded like a joke. They should play the flip side in future...

- Doxa

<But in "Stoned" there is no silly pop song to be hidden there, so the form and content are in a par.>

What I meant was that in Stoned you got a almost child-like, simple blues approach. But it's performed excellently, and that makes it both trustworthy, dark and real. Same with IWBYM, imo.

Quote
Silver Dagger

Quote
Doxa

It is very primitive and formal yet, but seeds for upcoming greats are to be heard there.
An interesting song indeed!

- Doxa

You made me listen to it again Doxa and I've heard the seeds of Midnight Rambler, especially the part when they go into their amazing instrumental overdrive when Jagger starts playing the harp.

There's also that darkness, that Come On mentioned, and which again is the essential ingredient in colouring the sound of Midnight Rambler.

Both these songs aren't looking at the pop horizon or at the glittery bright lights and big city that Oldham took them to. These are songs born in the basement, inhabiting a space down there in the hole where the blues lives and where the ventilator don't work so well.

And more than anything this is the essence of the Stones, the soul of the band and the part that has been missing for so long.

High five! The darkness, basement, Rambler..

There is not much "singing pop group" a'la The Beatles there, nor they was "instrumental rock" a'la The Shadows, but something much more challenging and dangerous. This was the musical counterpart for "Would You Let Daughter to Marry A Rolling Stone", the whole thing was not at all ALO's PR trick, he just turned the music into explicit image... It all initially comes from music.

There seems to be, roughly, two factors behind the musical success of the Stones. First is the sound, the band effort, the groove; how the band players click with each other, and the result is always bigger than the sum of its parts. Then, secondly, there is Jagger/Richard song-writing and visionary. "Stoned" is a great early exemplary of the first: the basis into which everything can be build on. The band could transform a basic rhythm and blues jam into something more meaningful and different. They weren't any big musicians, but they really had something or wee able grasp something the others didn't...

- Doxa

It's more like a song one would hear watching a "B" movie. Nonetheless it's catchy.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<But in "Stoned" there is no silly pop song to be hidden there, so the form and content are in a par.>

What I meant was that in Stoned you got a almost child-like, simple blues approach. But it's performed excellently, and that makes it both trustworthy, dark and real. Same with IWBYM, imo.

I get you mean. I would leave "child-like" out, but blues is very simple music melody/structure wise. The greatness, or teh whole point, of blues, derives from something else, and I think the Stones have always been excellent in realizing that. The lesson which can be heard also in their more original, not clearly blues-type of music. But yeah, "Stoned" is even for the Stones very basic, and they very rarely play the blues so text-book like. What it is? "Green Onions" riff little varied, a whole band effort twelve bar jam, plus Jagger throwing some random lines here and there... And the glimpses of magic happen..

This was the time when Stu really didn't need to worry about playing minor chords yet!

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-21 11:11 by Doxa.

<And the glimpses of magic happen>

BTW, I think the legend was that Stu wasn't fond of the black keys, no? Maybe my memory doesn't serve me too well today (or yesterday - when I mis-remembered Keith paying the fan's medical bill, instead of bailing him out of jail)

BTW, I think the legend was that Stu wasn't fond of the black keys, no? Maybe my memory doesn't serve me too well today (or yesterday - when I mis-remembered Keith paying the fan's medical bill, instead of bailing him out of jail) [/quote]

I recall hearing both versions... but to play minor chords with piano, one normally needs to use black keys rather much (but which, of course, depends on chords, like with majors)... Probably Stu just wanted to play numbers in which he could play his much loved boogie-woogie stuff as much as possible, and probably in keys that was easiest for him, and let his opinion to be heard...

- Doxa

Quote
Doxa
BTW, I think the legend was that Stu wasn't fond of the black keys, no? Maybe my memory doesn't serve me too well today (or yesterday - when I mis-remembered Keith paying the fan's medical bill, instead of bailing him out of jail)

I recall hearing both versions... but to play minor chords with piano, one normally needs to use black keys rather much (but which, of course, depends on chords, like with majors)... Probably Stu just wanted to play numbers in which he could play his much loved boogie-woogie stuff as much as possible, and probably in keys that was easiest for him, and let his opinion to be heard...

- Doxa[/quote]

Yeah, probably. However, the funny thing is that when you play the blues, you usually play in minor - unless you're playing country blues

The Blues played on the piano does not belong to my favorites if not Bessie Smits pianist who guides the ship ...

2 1 2 0

Quote
Come On
The Blues played on the piano does not belong to my favorites if not Bessie Smits pianist who guides the ship ...

Not even with Johnnie?

Quote
Doxa
BTW, I think the legend was that Stu wasn't fond of the black keys, no?

- Doxa

That was before they brought out this classic. I think he would have approved of the particularly funky back beat. ><







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-21 14:18 by Silver Dagger.

Sounds like there's a bit of feedback going through Keith's guitar amp during his solo, on those long, sustained notes at the end of each phrasing.

That would predate Lennon's claim of I Feel Fine having the first guitar feedback on record. But then again, he probably hadn't heard this track, as he likely wouldn't have been interested in hearing the B-side of a song he just whipped up all at once and then gave away.

Quote
stonehearted
Sounds like there's a bit of feedback going through Keith's guitar amp during his solo, on those long, sustained notes at the end of each phrasing.

That would predate Lennon's claim of I Feel Fine having the first guitar feedback on record. But then again, he probably hadn't heard this track, as he likely wouldn't have been interested in hearing the B-side of a song he just whipped up all at once and then gave away.

Yeah, there certainly is some sort of feedback effect in Keith's guitar going on there, be it intentional or (probably) not.

Here is what Lennon stated in 1980:

That's me completely. Including the electric guitar lick and the record with the first feedback anywhere. I defy anybody to find a record - unless it's some old blues record in 1922 - that uses feedback that way. I mean, everybody played with feedback on stage, and the Jimi Hendrix stuff was going on long before... So I claim it for The Beatles. Before Hendrix, before The Who, before anybody. The first feedback on any record.

John's words leave room for some non-intentional use of feedback in a "blues record in 1922", but however, it was material like that the Stones were familiar with, and who knows, might been even inspirational to achieve/copy by them.

Hmm.. I am sure Lennon heard "Stoned", if for nothing for than out of curiosity what happens in the flip side of the single they've written for them. Actually I am sure John was interested in what these guys were up to, after hearing them live and meeting them at Crawdaddy, and liking them ever since (even in his otherwise bitter '70 ROLLING STONE interview, he admits always been liking their "funky" style). He would later bash Keith's solo in "It's All Over Now" (so Keith clams in LIFE), so he definitively was paying attention to their guitar solos...

But had "Stoned" any influence to "I Feel Fine"? The Beatles were always listening to helluva music to catch anything interesting and were quick to make it their own and extremily popular (which Beatlelogists and lazy music historians generally interpret revolutionary and independent of no one else's doings, 'innovation' made by a genious), but in this case I don't think there was any direct influence, but just a co-incidence. So I let John and Martin keep their merit being the first and everything...

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-21 21:04 by Doxa.

Great song, the instruments and the vocals. And the funny thing is, it's just a straightforward 12 bar blues, nothing new chord-wise. But the Stones are able to make it sound spooky, dark and dangerous. The strenght of the Stones is how they can even make a 12 bar blues sound different and original (even now).

It's almost as trippy as the last 8 or so odd minutes of Going Home, also one of my faves from that period.

"Stoned was nothing more than just a nick-off Booker T's Green Onions"

quote: Keith Richards 1972.

So basically a cover of the the Booker T & the MG's track with some improvised lyrics thrown in. It's about getting pissed on a few pints of bitter is how Mick described it.