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Bliss
Yes, I do think Mick Taylor's DEPARTURE was responsible for the creative death of the Rolling Stones.

Yet they came up with gems like Hand Of Fate, Memory Motel, Slave, Worried About You, Hey Negrita and others immediately after...

I am one, who considered Mick Taylor's departure a major loss. What was great in the preceding years, though, was due to other factors as well and even more than his presence in the band. I think that his full return to the Stones now could mean a great addition, if the band was to make new studio music.

However, I do think sometimes that the Stones perhaps was better equipped personnelwise for some time, exposed to the challenge from punk and "new wave", with Ron Woood in the band than they might have been with Mick Taylor. Said from one who usually prefers the guitar contribution from Mick Taylor of the two.

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DandelionPowderman

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Bliss
Yes, I do think Mick Taylor's DEPARTURE was responsible for the creative death of the Rolling Stones.

Yet they came up with gems like Hand Of Fate, Memory Motel, Slave, Worried About You, Hey Negrita and others immediately after...

Some of my favourites

But great as they are, they are not as groundbreaking and original as most of what they did with MT.

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Bliss

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DandelionPowderman

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Bliss
Yes, I do think Mick Taylor's DEPARTURE was responsible for the creative death of the Rolling Stones.

Yet they came up with gems like Hand Of Fate, Memory Motel, Slave, Worried About You, Hey Negrita and others immediately after...

Some of my favourites

But great as they are, they are not as groundbreaking and original as most of what they did with MT.

IMO, the groundbreaking stuff came in 1967/68. It was somewhat perfected with Taylor, though. It certainly wasn't anything new - only great

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DandelionPowderman


IMO, the groundbreaking stuff came in 1967/68. It was somewhat perfected with Taylor, though. It certainly wasn't anything new - only great

Yeah, the world wasn't the same after when the three smash singles "We Love You", "She's A Rainbow", and the cherry at the top of them, "In Another Land" hit the stores. Of course, the albums FLOWERS and THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES gave us the blueprint for anything to come. That's the stuff The Stones are since then known for, and it is hard to think any of their recent hit show without material from that era..

Seriously, Dandie, I don't get quite get what "groundbreaking" the Stones did in 1967... they did one big pop hit single ("Ruby Tuesday"/"Let's Spend The Night Together" ), two so-so ranked albums (BUTTONS/SATANIC MAJESTIES) and what else?... The chords of "Street Fighting Man" were invented then?

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-17 14:55 by Doxa.

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman


IMO, the groundbreaking stuff came in 1967/68. It was somewhat perfected with Taylor, though. It certainly wasn't anything new - only great

Yeah, the world wasn't the same after when the three smash singles "We Love You", "She's A Rainbow", and the cherry at the top of them, "In Another Land" hit the stores. Of course, the albums FLOWERS and THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES gave us the blueprint for anything to come. That's the stuff The Stones are since then known for, and it is hard to think any of their recent hit show without material from that era..

Seriously, Dandie, I don't get quite get what "groundbreaking" the Stones did in 1967... they did one big pop hit single ("Ruby Tuesday"/"Let's Spend The Night Together" ), two so-so ranked albums (BUTTONS/SATANIC MAJESTIES) and what else?... The chords of "Street Fighting Man" were invented then?

- Doxa

The groundbreaking stuff is evident on TSMR. The unique sound of Citadel became Child Of The Moon, which became JJF and so on.

By 1971/72 there were ten times as many bands as in 1967 that played the music the Stones were playing. Hence, by 1971/72, the Stones's music was great, but not groundbreaking anymore.

It's not even up for debate, and I think you were a bit too quick there, Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-17 15:12 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman
The way Keith used open G had nothing to do with how Ry used it - hence no copying, other than the tuning itself (which he first learned from Brian, according to Dick Taylor) minus one string

“KEITH’S OPEN G TUNING, WHATEVER ANYONE SAYS, I KNOW WHERE HE GOT IT FROM. OPEN G TUNING DEFINITELY CAME FROM BRIAN.”
- DICK TAYLOR.

Read this:

[trynka.net]

YEs but he did copy Ry Cooder, open G (HTW) and standard (Rambler, Monkey Man etc) tuning, heavily, in 1969. My point is that Keiths own style, the style he is famous for, the open G of Dice, JJF, Start me up, you got me rockin etc is something he has overused. A good example of how he still could invent something with the help of Open G is Love is Strong.

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Redhotcarpet

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DandelionPowderman
The way Keith used open G had nothing to do with how Ry used it - hence no copying, other than the tuning itself (which he first learned from Brian, according to Dick Taylor) minus one string

“KEITH’S OPEN G TUNING, WHATEVER ANYONE SAYS, I KNOW WHERE HE GOT IT FROM. OPEN G TUNING DEFINITELY CAME FROM BRIAN.”
- DICK TAYLOR.

Read this:

[trynka.net]

YEs but he did copy Ry Cooder, open G (HTW) and standard (Rambler, Monkey Man etc) tuning, heavily, in 1969. My point is that Keiths own style, the style he is famous for, the open G of Dice, JJF, Start me up, you got me rockin etc is something he has overused. A good example of how he still could invent something with the help of Open G is Love is Strong.

I agree about the overusing (mainly during 1972-73, as he played mostly in standard tuning throughout the 70s and 80s), but not on the "heavy copying-part". Some of the stuff on LIB, where we can hear some lifted licks from Cooder, are songs in standard tuning with single-string slide. I don't think MM has any Cooder in it.

We only have a couple of examples in open G: Downtown Suzie (we don't know for certain whether it indeed is Keith on this one) and HTW.

The riffing on Jamming With Edward that you posted earlier was supposed to be similar to MR, which is in standard tuning. I'm not too convinced about that one.

To my knowledge Cooder never removed the E-string, something that was crucial for the sound Keith obtained.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-17 15:58 by DandelionPowderman.

No.

www.rsundercover.eu

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Britney
No.

Best post yet.

I never thought IORNR was one of their worst. Everything released after 1995 is much worse so maybe Ron Wood is the problem? Don't know what happened, Ian Stewart dying, Keith quitting drugs etc...? They lost it completely years back though and I could care less for one more inferior disappointing record.

<Everything released after 1995 is much worse so maybe Ron Wood is the problem?>

If he wasn't a "problem" for the 21 years prior to 1995, why should he become one later on?

Besides there is lots of stuff on B2B (not my favourite album) that blows most of IORR out of the water.

The rot set in with Black n Blue, a mediocre mish-mash of faddy styles that happened to catch the ear of Jagger and Richards. Bar the gems on Some Girls and elements of Tattoo You, we've had decades of exceedingly average albums. Undercover, Dirty Work and Steel Wheels being what is probably the worst trio of consecutively released stinkers in their career. Would things have been any different if Mick Taylor had decided to stick around? It's an unanswerable question. Where are where we are. After nine years without a new album, does it really matter any more? I'm not fussed.

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DandelionPowderman

Besides there is lots of stuff on B2B (not my favourite album) that blows most of IORR out of the water.

Does it? But hey, this is a Taylor thread.

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sonomastone
on the face of it, the evidence is clear. just prior to hiring taylor, the stones had recorded "beggar's banquet" and "let it bleed," two of their greatest albums. they were on a roll.

but by the time he left, they had just released "it's only rock-n-roll," one of their worst albums to date.

however, i'm inclined to give taylor some more credit than that. clearly heroin and distractions of being rich and comfortable took some of the edge of their creativity too.

what do you think, is mick taylor the reason the band completely tanked creatively in the mid-70s?

ummm, Some Girls, Umm Tatoo You, Ummm, Bigger Bang

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Father Ted
Would things have been any different if Mick Taylor had decided to stick around?

We probably would have had the same songs, but with a bored Taylor on guitar. But still..

I think, based on the evidence of Time Waits For No One, the Stones would have journeyed more into jazz fusion, and Latino music. There was a tale that Mick Taylor went up the Amazon, listening to South American music circa 1974.

Prior to leaving, Mick Taylor also played with Mike Oldfield on the live Tubular Bells, so the musical direction, if Taylor stayed, would have been totally different to the direction the Stones took with Ron Wood.

Only if he killed Brian and i believe he has an alibi that does not rely on Tom Keylock's evidence.
Agree with a previous poster - over reliance on open G, drugs,lifestyle and laziness combined with the fact that most artists have a peak period which they rarely live up to subsequently are probably more likely as factors. Much as i'm a major Beatle fan they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings. Bummer. It happens to the best of 'em.
Enjoy what we got and the little gems that pop up here and there - i count Doom and Gloom in that...

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tomcasagranda
I think, based on the evidence of Time Waits For No One, the Stones would have journeyed more into jazz fusion, and Latino music. There was a tale that Mick Taylor went up the Amazon, listening to South American music circa 1974.

Prior to leaving, Mick Taylor also played with Mike Oldfield on the live Tubular Bells, so the musical direction, if Taylor stayed, would have been totally different to the direction the Stones took with Ron Wood.

That implies that the songs they have written after 1974 would have been very influenced by either Mick Taylor or Ron Wood. Interesting subject.

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tomcasagranda
I think, based on the evidence of Time Waits For No One, the Stones would have journeyed more into jazz fusion, and Latino music. There was a tale that Mick Taylor went up the Amazon, listening to South American music circa 1974.

Prior to leaving, Mick Taylor also played with Mike Oldfield on the live Tubular Bells, so the musical direction, if Taylor stayed, would have been totally different to the direction the Stones took with Ron Wood.

My understanding is that to say that the musical direction would have been totally different, is an exaggeration. He might have continued to influence the song writing to some unknown degree and the musical arrangements and developments of songs even a little more on some, but far from all songs. I would think him more liable to go on to be influenced by the Stones than himself to influence the Stones. However, he might have been inspiration on especially Mick Jagger to supply and work out more of his (Mick's) song ideas. Added: That indirect influence might on the other hand have been considerate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-22 23:23 by Witness.

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LuxuryStones

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DandelionPowderman

Besides there is lots of stuff on B2B (not my favourite album) that blows most of IORR out of the water.

Does it? But hey, this is a Taylor thread.

The thread title says it's both

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tomcasagranda
I think, based on the evidence of Time Waits For No One, the Stones would have journeyed more into jazz fusion, and Latino music. There was a tale that Mick Taylor went up the Amazon, listening to South American music circa 1974.

Prior to leaving, Mick Taylor also played with Mike Oldfield on the live Tubular Bells, so the musical direction, if Taylor stayed, would have been totally different to the direction the Stones took with Ron Wood.

Black And Blue was even more caribbean-sounding than IORR.

Hey Negrita was what Ronnie brought to the table, remember. A different take on it, but still totally following the trends like Taylor did.

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ash
Only if he killed Brian and i believe he has an alibi that does not rely on Tom Keylock's evidence.
Agree with a previous poster - over reliance on open G, drugs,lifestyle and laziness combined with the fact that most artists have a peak period which they rarely live up to subsequently are probably more likely as factors. Much as i'm a major Beatle fan they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings. Bummer. It happens to the best of 'em.
Enjoy what we got and the little gems that pop up here and there - i count Doom and Gloom in that...

But he was only 'in' the band after Brian was fired, so killing Brian has no bearing on the creative death of the stones.

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ash
Only if he killed Brian and i believe he has an alibi that does not rely on Tom Keylock's evidence.
Agree with a previous poster - over reliance on open G, drugs,lifestyle and laziness combined with the fact that most artists have a peak period which they rarely live up to subsequently are probably more likely as factors. Much as i'm a major Beatle fan they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings. Bummer. It happens to the best of 'em.
Enjoy what we got and the little gems that pop up here and there - i count Doom and Gloom in that...

"they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings."

Great statement.................

__________________________

^ Heh-heh. I didn't know Linda "played" keyboards and sang on Abbey Road.

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NICOS

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ash
Only if he killed Brian and i believe he has an alibi that does not rely on Tom Keylock's evidence.
Agree with a previous poster - over reliance on open G, drugs,lifestyle and laziness combined with the fact that most artists have a peak period which they rarely live up to subsequently are probably more likely as factors. Much as i'm a major Beatle fan they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings. Bummer. It happens to the best of 'em.
Enjoy what we got and the little gems that pop up here and there - i count Doom and Gloom in that...

"they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings."

Great statement.................

I didn't know Linda and Denny Laine were on Abbey Road?!

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treaclefingers

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NICOS

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ash
Only if he killed Brian and i believe he has an alibi that does not rely on Tom Keylock's evidence.
Agree with a previous poster - over reliance on open G, drugs,lifestyle and laziness combined with the fact that most artists have a peak period which they rarely live up to subsequently are probably more likely as factors. Much as i'm a major Beatle fan they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings. Bummer. It happens to the best of 'em.
Enjoy what we got and the little gems that pop up here and there - i count Doom and Gloom in that...

"they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings."

Great statement.................

I didn't know Linda and Denny Laine were on Abbey Road?!

Yup. Everyone thought that Paul died, but it was actually George who died. Denny was his secret replacement.

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stonehearted

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treaclefingers

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NICOS

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ash
Only if he killed Brian and i believe he has an alibi that does not rely on Tom Keylock's evidence.
Agree with a previous poster - over reliance on open G, drugs,lifestyle and laziness combined with the fact that most artists have a peak period which they rarely live up to subsequently are probably more likely as factors. Much as i'm a major Beatle fan they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings. Bummer. It happens to the best of 'em.
Enjoy what we got and the little gems that pop up here and there - i count Doom and Gloom in that...

"they were already starting to suck during Pepper. By the time they made Abbey Road they had become Wings."

Great statement.................

I didn't know Linda and Denny Laine were on Abbey Road?!

Yup. Everyone thought that Paul died, but it was actually George who died. Denny was his secret replacement.

You beat me to the punch...it pays to read ALL the posts!

^ I don't think it matters. It's good to have an extra post as reinforcement--to really drive home the point.

Re: is mick taylor responsible for the creative death of the stones?