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jazzbass
Always wondered why the entire set was played in standard tuning? Was it because Keith's now standard practice of changing guitars (of various tunings) every song, or every few songs had not yet been developed?

Keith should have used Brian's Gibson Firebird which was tuned to open E to play Flash. Brian should have used it for YCAGWYW with a capo on the 8th fret turning it to an open C. Both songs would have ended up sounding better. Brian would have had an easier time trying to play it that way instead of standard tuning using barre chords.

And whatever happened to the tapes from the 1968 NME concert? I read Brian rehearsed hard and played quite well. Did Keith use open E or standard tuning for this performance? Another rare treasure lost.

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ovalvox

Keith should have used Brian's Gibson Firebird which was tuned to open E to play Flash. Brian should have used it for YCAGWYW with a capo on the 8th fret turning it to an open C. Both songs would have ended up sounding better. Brian would have had an easier time trying to play it that way instead of standard tuning using barre chords.

The Firebird was tuned to open A and Brian didn't use bar chords on YCAGWYW at the R&R Circus.

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flacnvinyl

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His Majesty
No harmonising from Brian on JJF, he's shown playing a very basic version of the riff and just bar chords during the chorus.

Keith is in standard tuning for the whole set. Maybe the harmonising you hear is from Nicky's piano.

Brian plays basic Chuck Berry rhythm on PW and it's audible, but mixed low, if I remember correctly it's placed more to the left speaker.

On YCAGWYW he plays the low 3 strings playing partial chords, then moves to first position D chord and then back to the C low 3 string version of C chord. Basically just basic strumming on unimportant low notes of C and F chords for the majority of the track, mixed low.

He's shown playing during the intro, but his guitar isn't actually audible until the band comes in on the D chord "try some time..." . The bass mostly drowns out his guitar even when it is brought in.

There's actually a very quiet overdubbed guitar playing during the intro doing a different variation of what Brian is shown playing. This goes away when the band kicks in.

Imagine giving a beginner guitarist some basic parts to play along with the stones, that's kinda the extent of Brians guitar playing at R&R Circus.

Thank you for the clarification. You confirmed what I had thought since I first heard the recording. The harmonizing I am referring to is the twangs that occur at the very very end of JJFlash. The riff is all Keith but I believe I hear a 3rd note in there. Two are clearly from Keith's guitar. The third seems to have different timing and bending. Probably just my overactive imagination. Keith is compensating for lacking someone to duel with.

Keith plays it in standard, he does the outro downward spiral chords and just adds that "Hendrix" bend instead of the B-chord. Sort of.

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His Majesty

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ovalvox

Keith should have used Brian's Gibson Firebird which was tuned to open E to play Flash. Brian should have used it for YCAGWYW with a capo on the 8th fret turning it to an open C. Both songs would have ended up sounding better. Brian would have had an easier time trying to play it that way instead of standard tuning using barre chords.

The Firebird was tuned to open A and Brian didn't use bar chords on YCAGWYW at the R&R Circus.

Looks to me like Brian is barring the C chord on the 8th fret playing an augmented 7th. Or trying to anyways. Even though he was turned low Brian wasn't quite fretting it making his part out of tune. Just my observation. I play it like Keith. Open E capo 8th fret. Much easier. Or standard tuning using a regular unbarred C chord. I never really paid attention to what key they did NE in on Circus. Just assummed it was in E. Always found watching Brian on Circus painful. Even his slide guitar was shaky. I always thought Mick's vocals at Circus sucked as well. Mick took forever to release it because he knew that Brian wasn't the only one who didn't perform well. And Brian was turned up more on Flash than he gets credit for. He makes the same mistake twice just before the bridge. Very audible. He jumps into it to quick. Take away the same mistake I thought he did OK on Flash considering he looked a mess. Same with PW. Again just my observation.

In a thread several years ago, Brian's guitar playing in R'n'R Circus was discussed. In the VHS video of 25x5, when they play the intro to YCAGWYW, you could clearly hear his guitar strumming although on the R'n'R Circus DVD, it's inaudible. I believe it was mentioned in the thread that Keith might have overdubbed the guitar on the 25x5.

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DGA35
In a thread several years ago, Brian's guitar playing in R'n'R Circus was discussed. In the VHS video of 25x5, when they play the intro to YCAGWYW, you could clearly hear his guitar strumming although on the R'n'R Circus DVD, it's inaudible. I believe it was mentioned in the thread that Keith might have overdubbed the guitar on the 25x5.

Yes, it was an acoustic.

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ovalvox

Looks to me like Brian is barring the C chord on the 8th fret playing an augmented 7th. Or trying to anyways. Even though he was turned low Brian wasn't quite fretting it making his part out of tune. Just my observation. I play it like Keith. Open E capo 8th fret. Much easier. Or standard tuning using a regular unbarred C chord. I never really paid attention to what key they did NE in on Circus. Just assummed it was in E. Always found watching Brian on Circus painful. Even his slide guitar was shaky. I always thought Mick's vocals at Circus sucked as well. Mick took forever to release it because he knew that Brian wasn't the only one who didn't perform well. And Brian was turned up more on Flash than he gets credit for. He makes the same mistake twice just before the bridge. Very audible. He jumps into it to quick. Take away the same mistake I thought he did OK on Flash considering he looked a mess. Same with PW. Again just my observation.

He's just playing 8th fret 6th string, 10th fret 5th string for the C and then 8th fret 6th string, 8th fret 5th string and 7th fret 4th string for the F. Not out of tune, just very quiet.

He's not audible on JJF, the bass and piano covers his playing and any mistakes you hear must be from them.

What happened at the Circus is no rocket science really:

We have professional musicians who did not jump on stage unprepared, no, they even rehearsed the set in they days before the event.

We have a handful of songs with extremely simple structures, each consisting of only a handful of chords. We're really not talking about complex classical music works here.

There really is no excuse for anybody to deliver subpar performances for "not knowing the songs properly" or other protective rubbish that was mentioned here in this thread, mostly in favour of Brian. The Circus shows the sad state of affairs of a two guitar band when one guitar player is not able to deliver anything worthwile besides a relatively simple slide solo ("No Expectations") and the other guitar player consequently is forced to cover up the mess to save the band sound.

Mick's inital decision to shelve the project was right. He did not want the Stones to be shown on TV in this sad state. Maybe he was even protective of Brian, not wanting him being shown on TV in the sad state he in particular was in and the effects it had on the whole band sound. Give or take, this was not the Stones at their best, ready and suitable for a TV broadcast!

Decades later, the focus was different when the Circus was finally released. It did not show the contemporary Stones, but the ancient Stones at a certain point in time - an interesting historical artefact despite its obvious shortcomings. Even then, the decision was made to have Brian low in the mix. A protective decision, I would say.

That said, the performance has its charms.

But, as it stands, it helps to understand the development that finally lead to the band's decision to fire Brian.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-08 15:33 by retired_dog.

I agree that Brian was a sad thing to behold and partially hear, I don't enjoy the R&R Circus becaue it is a band who clearly need to get a new guitar player.

However, after close listening and comparing with bootleg recordings, with one exception he didn't play any of his simple parts badly so no real need to have him so low in the mix. The song they chose to highlight him on is the one on which he plays the most shakey.

His playing is no worse than Keith's comical soloing on Sympathy or his weedy soloing on Off The Hook from the much earlier TAMI show.

It would have been suicide to release it at the time I think, but not just because of Brian, but because it's pretty bad as a show/film in general. Then again, what we got with the official release is a 1996 version of the project. It would have been put together some what differently in early 1969.

The mixing of the show in general is odd, but having Brian visible yet so quiet for 3 tracks just adds to the oddness of the whole thing. I think the outtake mixes give a better, more realistic representation of the band and shows there wasn't any need to have Brian mixed so low for atleast Parachute Woman and YCAGWYW. That only leaves JJF and it appears he played his basic part as per the rest of the show.

One might conclude that mixing him so low and highlighting him being at his shakiest was actually done to support the narrative they have been putting forward about Brian at that time. Yes we know he was @#$%& up, but why hide him playing some basic parts which add a little bit of beefyness and don't detract from the sound of the band?

Not to deny he was @#$%& up, disinterested and clearly on his way out (by jumping and by being shoved), but the official release would have been better and less wonky had they had him a bit louder on the 3 tracks on which he is mixed low on. The bootleg outtakes are proof that mixing him so low is more detrimental to the recording than having him more audile. It sounds fuller with his guitar parts more audile. The bare minimum parts being there is better than them not being there.

The official release does not truly present the band as it was. Altered history.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-08 17:01 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
The official release does not truly present the band as it was. Altered history.

Maybe or even most likely that's the case, but why? Unless we hear Brian's guitar tracks in full glory, it is impossible to judge the merits of his playing from the poor quality outtake recordings available on bootlegs. I'd like to be placed in front of a mixing desk with the Circus multitracks running, playing with the channel faders...!

Until that happens, I am simply in no position to come up with a final verdict wether they kept Brian low in the released mix to make the best out of a spoiled performance or made a deliberate decision to mix an otherwise "ok" performance lower than necessary to highlight the "Brian was in a state of decay"-version.

Well said retired_dog. I totally agree with you.

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retired_dog

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His Majesty
The official release does not truly present the band as it was. Altered history.

Maybe or even most likely that's the case, but why? Unless we hear Brian's guitar tracks in full glory, it is impossible to judge the merits of his playing from the poor quality outtake recordings available on bootlegs. I'd like to be placed in front of a mixing desk with the Circus multitracks running, playing with the channel faders...!

Until that happens, I am simply in no position to come up with a final verdict wether they kept Brian low in the released mix to make the best out of a spoiled performance or made a deliberate decision to mix an otherwise "ok" performance lower than necessary to highlight the "Brian was in a state of decay"-version.

Quite possible actually.

The notes on both the bootleg takes and the official release can, with close listening and also the use of OOPS, be heard enough to be able to judge how well and in tune his playing was and it was all ok. His guitar parts do not get in the way or detract from what Keith plays. His guitar parts merely provide a very basic rhythmic backdrop.

He is not low in the mix because he played badly or because he was actually anymore out of tune than other members of the band. They are all a bit loose, miss various changes etc etc.

Full glory is not needed, a small increase in volume would benefit the official release and take away some of the oddness of seeing, but not really hearing him playing. This would not detract from the quality and balance of their set, it would actually make it more balanced and slightly fuller sounding.

Ages ago as an experiment I made a recording of their set where I dubbed on what he plays by playing the parts myself and mixed it just so that it provided a bit more body to the sound as per the bootleg levls. It just sounds better.

Were he to have played reqlly badly, out of tune and/or inappropriately I would understand the need to mix him so low, but that really doesn't seem to have been the case.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-08 18:44 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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retired_dog

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His Majesty
The official release does not truly present the band as it was. Altered history.

Maybe or even most likely that's the case, but why? Unless we hear Brian's guitar tracks in full glory, it is impossible to judge the merits of his playing from the poor quality outtake recordings available on bootlegs. I'd like to be placed in front of a mixing desk with the Circus multitracks running, playing with the channel faders...!

Until that happens, I am simply in no position to come up with a final verdict wether they kept Brian low in the released mix to make the best out of a spoiled performance or made a deliberate decision to mix an otherwise "ok" performance lower than necessary to highlight the "Brian was in a state of decay"-version.

Quite possible actually.

The notes on both the bootleg takes and the official release can, with close listening and also the use of OOPS, be heard enough to be able to judge how well and in tune his playing was and it was all ok. His guitar parts do not get in the way or detract from what Keith plays. His guitar parts merely provide a very basic rhythmic backdrop.

He is not low in the mix because he played badly or because he was actually anymore out of tune than other members of the band.

Full glory is not needed, a small increase in volume would benefit the official release and take away some of the oddness of seeing, but not really hearing him playing.

The truth is in the original multitracks and not in the final released product which may or may not have involved extensive studio trickery which became more and more efficient in the digital age. I never claimed that Brian was "out of tune". A performance can suffer from many aspects - out of tune, out of timing, wrong notes, wrong chords,insecure/inconsistent playing throughout, wrong guitar/amp sound, whatever you may think of.

Nah, when he is audible what he plays matches whith what he is shown playing. The sound is pretty consistant throughout, just a basic clean Gibson rhythm pickup and Fender amp sound.

They mute him during the intro to YCAGWYW and in his place there is a very quiet overdubbed guitar which plays something similar, but also different to what Brian actually played. That overdub gets ditched once the band kicks in and Brians actual part becomes slightly audible.

On the bootleg with Jagger on acoustic (not the 25X5 thing) you can hear Brian's lightly strummed part during the intro.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-08 18:55 by His Majesty.

OK, there have even been overdubs, but they pollute the clear picture of what was actually going on at the time of recording even more. The scenes that show Brian playing may show what he plays, but not exactly how he plays. I'm not saying that his playing was bad, however. I'm just saying that unless I hear the multitracks of the original recording I am not able to judge wether he did contribute anything worthwile or if his playing would have at least "beefed up" the sound. Anything else is wishful thinking, depending on where you're coming from.

Brian low in the mix? Hell,some later live recordings would sound better with Ron Wood higher in the mix. And didn't some people criticize the official "Brussels Affair" for Mick Taylor being too low in the mix compared to the bootlegs? I don't suspect big conspiracies here. Someone, somewhere along the line always has to make decisions on how to mix a final product. Whoever that was in each case, it just shows the powers that were at any given point in time.

I don't have a conspiracy theory, I just brought up one that could be taken from whats what.

We can see and hear how he plays, but it takes some messing with the stereo image to hear it more clearly. It's not wishful thinking, just finding a better understanding of what he played and how it fits in with what the others play.

Increasing his level slightly would just make for a more logical presentation as it would take away the oddness of seeing, but not really hearing one of the musicians and also beef up the sound slightly as an empty space would not be so empty anymore.

The released mix may or may not have had stones input and it's just what the people decided to run with.

Brian's guitar parts seem like a form of damage limitation already. They are so rudimentary. So they may have had no desire to make them a part of the soundscape in any obvious way other than when it was essential ie, on No Expectations.

Increasing his volume sloghtly or not, it's blatantly clear that they need a new guitarist.

Edit: Just listened to their set again for first time in awhile. Much better and fatter than I remember, better to listen to than to watch though.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-08 23:03 by His Majesty.

I have the 96 release on CD and DVD. I also have an old bootleg VHS somewhere where Brian introduced the piano player and not the clowns as written that Bill introduced. I'll have to find it and compare all three. I might scour the net for any rehearsal bootleg CD's as well. Overdubs just ruin somethings. Like Keith supposedly doing overdubs on the American version of Got Live If You Want It. It does sound like Keith overdubs the intro on 19th. Of course I understand 60's technology was brutal when it came to live recordings back then and they had to put out a half way decent product. I do agree that there was no way the stones could have released Circus at Christmas 1968. They were definitely upstaged by the Who and the Dirty Mac's Yer Blues. Of course Yoko was a different story. Still the whole production gives you an authentic 60's feel. Does anyone know why there is no video of the 1968 NME pollwinners concert anywhere? In the photos Brian looked like he had it together.

Brian and Mick also oberdubbed for the Got live lp.

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retired_dog
What happened at the Circus is no rocket science really:

We have professional musicians who did not jump on stage unprepared, no, they even rehearsed the set in they days before the event.

We have a handful of songs with extremely simple structures, each consisting of only a handful of chords. We're really not talking about complex classical music works here.

There really is no excuse for anybody to deliver subpar performances for "not knowing the songs properly" or other protective rubbish that was mentioned here in this thread, mostly in favour of Brian. The Circus shows the sad state of affairs of a two guitar band when one guitar player is not able to deliver anything worthwile besides a relatively simple slide solo ("No Expectations") and the other guitar player consequently is forced to cover up the mess to save the band sound.

Mick's inital decision to shelve the project was right. He did not want the Stones to be shown on TV in this sad state. Maybe he was even protective of Brian, not wanting him being shown on TV in the sad state he in particular was in and the effects it had on the whole band sound. Give or take, this was not the Stones at their best, ready and suitable for a TV broadcast!

Decades later, the focus was different when the Circus was finally released. It did not show the contemporary Stones, but the ancient Stones at a certain point in time - an interesting historical artefact despite its obvious shortcomings. Even then, the decision was made to have Brian low in the mix. A protective decision, I would say.

That said, the performance has its charms.

But, as it stands, it helps to understand the development that finally lead to the band's decision to fire Brian.

Can't picture Mick ever being protective of Brian. The Stones image yes, Brian no. At the time, he probably would've relished Brian going onstage in such horrendous condition, there was so much animosity between the two.

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