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Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: Kick Jaggards ()
Date: May 2, 2014 04:02

Rolling Stones: Boycott Apartheid, again!

[www.pacbi.org]

Quote
PACBI
The Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (PACBI), a member of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement in Palestine, has learned that you reportedly plan to perform in Israel on 10 June 2014 [1]. We are writing to urge you to refrain from playing in apartheid Israel and not to condone Israel’s violations of international law and human rights against the Palestinian people. We wrote you previously, in 2007 [2], after hearing of similar plans, and back then you did not play in Israel. We hope you will heed our call once again.



Since 2007, Israel has intensified its construction of illegal colonies in the occupied Palestinian territory. It continues to bomb and kill Palestinian civilians in Gaza and maintains its medieval siege of 1.8 million Palestinians there. Its wall, condemned as illegal by the International Court of Justice in 2004, is still standing and expanding, separating Palestinians from their livelihoods, schools and farms. Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Palestinian communities in the Naqab (Negev), East Jerusalem and the Jordan Valley was condemned by a ranking UN official as constituting a strategy of exclusion and discrimination [3]. Its policy of home demolitions, uprooting trees and denial of freedom of movement have intensified in recent months. It still maintains more than 50 racist laws [4] that are condemned by international and local human rights organizations. Even the U.S. Department of State has censured Israel’s system of “institutional, legal and societal” discrimination against Palestinian citizens of the state. [5]



Why would you accept to perform in a country that is so deeply involved in war crimes and human rights violations? Performing in Israel at this time is morally equivalent to performing in South Africa during the apartheid era. We all remember how leading Rolling Stones musicians played a prominent role in enforcing a cultural boycott of apartheid South Africa in the 1980’s, and participated in recording the timeless song, Sun City, which had a singular influence on raising public awareness about apartheid and its injustices. As Archbishop Desmond Tutu, UN Special Rapporteur on human rights Prof. John Dugard, and South African government minister Ronnie Kasrils have repeatedly declared, Israel has created a worse system of apartheid than anything that ever existed in South Africa.



Just days ago, a special solidarity conference convened by the South African parliament, attended by major parties, trade unions and civil society networks, issued the Cape Town Declaration, regarding Israel as guilty of the crime of apartheid and endorsing BDS against it until it meets its obligations under international law. [6]



In this spirit, PACBI and the broader BDS movement, representing the absolute majority of Palestinian civil society, appeal to you to cancel your June 2014 performance in Tel Aviv.



Israel uses arts and culture to whitewash its violations of international law and human rights.



In December 2008 and January 2009, Israel waged a war of aggression against Gaza that left 1,400 Palestinians, predominantly civilians, dead [9], and led the UN Goldstone Report to declare that Israel had committed war crimes [10]. In the wake of this assault and to salvage its deteriorating image, Israel has redoubled its effort to “brand” itself as an enlightened liberal democracy [11]. Arts and culture play a unique role in this branding campaign [12], as the presence of internationally acclaimed artists from the West is meant to affirm Israel’s membership in the West’s privileged club of “cultured,” liberal democracies. But it should not be business as usual with a state that routinely violates international law and basic human rights.



Your performance would serve this Israeli campaign to rebrand itself and will be used as a publicity tool by the Israeli government.



Numerous distinguished cultural figures and public intellectuals have joined the call for BDS.



Today, many international artists, intellectuals, and cultural workers have been rejecting Israel’s cynical use of the arts to whitewash its apartheid and colonial policies. Among those who have supported the BDS movement are distinguished artists, writers, public intellectuals and anti-racist activists such as Archbishop Desmond Tutu, John Berger, Arundhati Roy, Judith Butler, Naomi Klein, Ken Loach, Alice Walker, Angela Davis and Mira Nair.



World-renowned artists, among them Roger Waters, Bono, Snoop Dogg, Jean Luc Godard, Elvis Costello, Gil Scott Heron, Carlos Santana, Devendra Banhart, Faithless, Zakir Hussain, Stevie Wonder, Mike Leigh, Coldplay, Jello Biafra and the Guantanamo school of Medicine, Mireille Mathieu, Oumou Sangaré, Cassandra Wilson, Cat Power, Lenny Kravitz, Carlo Mombelli, and Stanley Jordan have also cancelled their performances in Israel over its human rights record. Maxi Jazz had this to say as he maintained his principled position not to entertain apartheid,



While human beings are being willfully denied not just their rights but their needs for their children and grandparents and themselves, I feel deeply that I should not be sending even tacit signals that [performing in Israel] is either 'normal' or 'ok'. It's neither and I cannot support it. It grieves me that it has come to this and I pray everyday for human beings to begin caring for each other, firm in the wisdom that we are all we have. [13]



Significantly, you may have already heard of the boycott spreading to the academic realm, with four associations now coming out publicly in support of academic boycott [14]. The movement is spreading and the taboo to speak out against Israel is breaking. People in all quarters are no longer afraid to speak out, and we hope you will stand with them.



Please say no to performing in Israel.



Today, Palestinian civil society groups are calling on artists to shun Tel Aviv in the same way that South African activists called on artists to boycott Sun City. All we are asking is for you to refrain from crossing a picket line called by Palestinian society, endorsed by international organizations, and increasingly supported by progressive-Israelis [15]. Palestinian civil society is asking this of you as the most essential contribution to our struggle to achieve peace and justice.



Respectfully,

PACBI

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: shawnriffhard1 ()
Date: May 2, 2014 05:25

Quote
lem motlow
to compare it to south africa is a bit silly-

and that thing about gram parsons,fcking spare me.when did cult figure gram parsons become "legendary american musician"??

he made an easy decision to not go to south africa because he was a rich trust fund kid who didnt need the money and it was easier just to hang out and be a keith groupie.
read the other guys in the byrds side of it sometime,those "political decisions" are alot harder to make when you're broke.

Absolute nonsense. I wasnt referencing GP as anything more than an entry point to KR's (and presumeably the rest of the band's) point of view. GP's sincerity or lack of has nothing to do with anything, nor does your opinion on his amount of "legendarieness".

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: DoomandGloom ()
Date: May 2, 2014 05:27

How did Nick Mason get dragged into this????

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: tomk ()
Date: May 2, 2014 05:33

I'm sick of Waters' socialistic BS. Roger, ha ha charade you are.

And please, for the umteenth time, Parsons only bailed on South Africa because he wanted to hang out with Keith. Ask McGuinn and Hillman about that.
Don't make him out as some anti-Apartheid hero.

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: shawnriffhard1 ()
Date: May 2, 2014 05:48

Nobody, at least not me, is making any such claims. KR is the one doing all the talking in the story I quoted. GP probably did use it as an excuse to hang. What does that have to do with KR's statement (which is entirely relevant to the discussion here)?

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: jazzbass ()
Date: May 2, 2014 05:49

Quote
DoomandGloom
How did Nick Mason get dragged into this????

thumbs up


Quote
tomk
I'm sick of Waters' socialistic BS. Roger, ha ha charade you are.

thumbs up

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: andrewt ()
Date: May 2, 2014 06:23

I call on Roger Water & Nick Mason to make a three minute tune that rocks.smoking smiley

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: tomk ()
Date: May 2, 2014 06:29

Quote
shawnriffhard1
Nobody, at least not me, is making any such claims. KR is the one doing all the talking in the story I quoted. GP probably did use it as an excuse to hang. What does that have to do with KR's statement (which is entirely relevant to the discussion here)?

Well, Keith's wrong here. You'd be surprised how many GP fans think of him as some sort of anti-Apartheid hero (and I'm a fan of Parsons' music BTW). McGuinn and Hillman said they knew what was going on down there but went with somewhat naive intentions ("We'll try to change things, man.")

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: shawnriffhard1 ()
Date: May 2, 2014 07:56

I'm not surprised by how many people mistakenly believe all kinds of crappola, but I didn't say anything like that. Both you and Lem Mottlow called me out about GP's lack of Apartheid fighting sincerity, when the point I was quite clearly making was KR's affirmation about how wrong it was to go to South Africa.

Whether a 24 year old man's opinion has any relevance to the decisions a 69 year old man makes....., well, that's a legitimate, though entirely different discussion.

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: StonedAsia ()
Date: May 2, 2014 08:02

The music comes first. Period.

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: Aquamarine ()
Date: May 2, 2014 09:41

Quote
tomk

Well, Keith's wrong here. You'd be surprised how many GP fans think of him as some sort of anti-Apartheid hero (and I'm a fan of Parsons' music BTW). McGuinn and Hillman said they knew what was going on down there but went with somewhat naive intentions ("We'll try to change things, man.")

Keith isn't/wasn't wrong about anything. He told Gram that bands didn't go to South Africa to play, in which point he was totally correct (in the UK, at least) during the apartheid era. GP's response to this, and the reasons for it, are irrelevant. This thread is totally mired in predictable confusion, seems to me.

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: laertisflash ()
Date: May 2, 2014 09:43

"The music comes first"... To me is just a clishe. Because when music comes along with participation in a kind of advocacy of human rights, then it comes more first than first... I don't think Waters, Kravitz, Santana and others supplant their music just because they understand what the hell happens in the occupied territories and take commensurate decisions. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, of course. I just express mine.

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: stonehearted ()
Date: May 2, 2014 10:27

I wonder what Dave Gilmour thinks. Probably too comfortably numb to care.

And here's what Nick Mason really thinks....

"Oh... uh... me flakes... and uh... scrambled eggs, bacon, sausages, toe-mah-toes, toast, coffee, marmalade, I like marmalade... Yes, porridge is nice... any cereal, I like all cereals... porridge is nice... oh god..."

"Breakfast in Los Angeles, microbiotic stuff..."

"I don't mind the barrow. I quite like barrowing the stuff in. Oh, I've got a terrible back. When I work, it hurts me. You know, I need the job. Well, it's sort of a... When I drive on the radio to sleep, just ready for the the gig. I don't know... All that electrical stuff I can't be bothered with, its so fiddly. Oh god..."

"Well my head's a blank..."




Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Date: May 2, 2014 10:39

Quote
triceratops
Ain't gonna happen. The Stones played an Arab-Muslim country Dubai and now they will play Israel. I see a balance here.
Mick and everyone thought long and hard about Israel given the possible protests. They are not going to back down.

The Arab Emirates. Dubai is not a country.

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Date: May 2, 2014 10:42

Quote
shawnriffhard1
Quote
lem motlow
to compare it to south africa is a bit silly-

and that thing about gram parsons,fcking spare me.when did cult figure gram parsons become "legendary american musician"??

he made an easy decision to not go to south africa because he was a rich trust fund kid who didnt need the money and it was easier just to hang out and be a keith groupie.
read the other guys in the byrds side of it sometime,those "political decisions" are alot harder to make when you're broke.

Absolute nonsense. I wasnt referencing GP as anything more than an entry point to KR's (and presumeably the rest of the band's) point of view. GP's sincerity or lack of has nothing to do with anything, nor does your opinion on his amount of "legendarieness".

The band Gram quit, when he refused touring in South Africa (The Byrds), was obscure, too? grinning smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-02 10:46 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Date: May 2, 2014 10:44

Quote
tomk
I'm sick of Waters' socialistic BS. Roger, ha ha charade you are.

And please, for the umteenth time, Parsons only bailed on South Africa because he wanted to hang out with Keith. Ask McGuinn and Hillman about that.
Don't make him out as some anti-Apartheid hero.

It's easy for Roger and Chris to dismiss it like that. Did that cross your mind?

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: May 2, 2014 11:27

Why is this political thread ok btw?

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: Braincapers ()
Date: May 2, 2014 12:52

Quote
StonedAsia
The music comes first. Period.

If that were true musicians should not of boycotted South Africa. Bob Dylan shouldn't have written 'finger pointing' songs.

Being anti some Israeli Government policies is not anti Semitism.

And what's wrong with being a socialist?

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: triceratops ()
Date: May 2, 2014 12:59

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
tomk
I'm sick of Waters' socialistic BS. Roger, ha ha charade you are.

And please, for the umteenth time, Parsons only bailed on South Africa because he wanted to hang out with Keith. Ask McGuinn and Hillman about that.
Don't make him out as some anti-Apartheid hero.

It's easy for Roger and Chris to dismiss it like that. Did that cross your mind?

Roger McGuinn and Chris Hillman are honest, right on guys and I have heard their Gram Parsons comments through the decades. I will trust them on this. Chris Hillman is especially brutal and honest on Gram having worked with him in Flying Burrito Brothers too. Who were one of my favorites! I saw the Gram version.

Gram Parsons is the very interesting intersection of The Stones and Byrds. My two top groups when young and whose new albums I always kept track of

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: Kick Jaggards ()
Date: May 2, 2014 13:31

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Why is this political thread ok btw?

It's a human rights issue, not politics.

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason call on the Stones to cancel Israel concert
Posted by: haimbarr ()
Date: May 2, 2014 14:35

Before this thread gets taken down...I'll point out that Roger had no problem playing for us in Israel in 2006. He did make sure the concert took place in a field next to a co-operative village of Arabs and Jews, and used the stage to - very respectfully - urge Israelis to "tear down the wall". 40,000 Israelis heard him then, but now, no one listens to him because his message is negative and belligerent.

Roger Waters and Nick Mason urge Rolling Stones to reconsider concert plans
Posted by: Happy Jack ()
Date: May 7, 2014 07:53

I found this on a Pink Floyd site and thought it worthy to read since it is related to the Rolling Stones. (please note this is not to start a political argument, just to bring some Stones news to the forum).
[www.brain-damage.co.uk]
Under the framework of being Pink Floyd's founding members Roger Waters and Nick Mason have come together to issue an open letter responding to the plans for the Rolling Stones to play in Israel. Here's that letter in full, which we are sure (based on previous items on the subject) will prove divisive and quite emotive with fans on either side of the subject... so you know, we won't enter into correspondence regarding this, and offer no opinion over the subject under discussion - we're just reporting on it.

With the recent news that the Rolling Stones will be playing their first-ever concert in Israel, and at what is a critical time in the global struggle for Palestinian freedom and equal rights, we, the two surviving founders of Pink Floyd, have united in support of Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS), a growing, nonviolent global human rights movement initiated by Palestinian civil society in 2005 to end Israel's occupation, racial discrimination and denial of basic Palestinian rights.

The BDS movement is modelled on the successful nonviolent movements that helped end Jim Crow in the American South and apartheid in South Africa. Indeed, key figures who led the South African freedom struggle, like Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Mandela’s close associate, Ahmed Kathrada, have come out in support of BDS for Palestinian rights. BDS offers us all a way to nonviolently pressure the Israeli government to fully realize that its injustices against the Palestinian people are legally and morally unacceptable and unsustainable.

The movement does not advocate a particular political framework — one state or two — and neither do we. Rather, we call for a resolution that upholds freedom, justice and equal rights for all, irrespective of identity, and does not cause additional suffering for either people.

So, to the bands that intend to play Israel in 2014, we urge you to reconsider. Playing Israel now is the moral equivalent of playing Sun City at the height of South African apartheid; regardless of your intentions, crossing the picket line provides propaganda that the Israeli government will use in its attempts to whitewash the policies of its unjust and racist regime.

We are nearing the tipping point in global awareness that the denial of Palestinian rights has had a devastating impact on generations of people, and that they need our support now more than ever. Consequently, we encourage you, fellow artists, to ask yourselves what you would do if forced to live under military rule and discriminatory laws for decades. If the answer is that you would resist until justice prevailed, we ask that you champion BDS as a nonviolent, collective means of securing a better future for all. If you wouldn't play Sun City, back in the day, as you, the Rolling Stones did not, then don't play Tel Aviv until such time as freedom reigns for all and equal rights is the law of the land.

"Together We Stand"

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason urge Rolling Stones to reconsider concert plans
Posted by: BluzDude ()
Date: May 7, 2014 07:56

Oh Jesus Christ, NOT AGAIN!!!

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason urge Rolling Stones to reconsider concert plans
Posted by: Green Lady ()
Date: May 7, 2014 09:19

Been there, had the argument, had the thread closed. This is old news.

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason urge Rolling Stones to reconsider concert plans
Posted by: BluzDude ()
Date: May 7, 2014 09:22

Two threads closed, this will be #3

Re: Roger Waters and Nick Mason urge Rolling Stones to reconsider concert plans
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: May 7, 2014 11:56

Utter hypocrisy to single out one country in the world to boycott. Maybe I missed Waters and Mason's open letter asking the Stones not to perform in China.

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