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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

Great work, Kevin! I really would love to hear the whole archive BA the way you 'made' it. It's an amazing improvement. So if you would like to do it, I would love to have it.

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kleermaker

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Mathijs

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kleermaker

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Mathijs

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kevinkamphuis


The Stones themselves already did this with the archive release of The Brussels affair. It didn't sound like that in 1973...

The official release sounds closer to how the show sounded in 1973 than the processed BA radio broadcast. The fact that most of us prefer the radio broadcast doesn't mean it is a faithful representation of the actual show.

Mathijs

No it doesn't. I was in Rotterdam 1973, not so much different from Brussels shows and the bootleg Brussels Definitive and others capture the sound of the show MUCH better than the lifeless archive release does. In fact the archive release doesn't capture it at all.

Which is all bollocks. After 41 years you think Rotterdam sounded like BA, but it sure didn't. BA sounds completely different to any audience tape and any soundboard tape, or Preston's live album. And the official BA sounds very close to what you can hear on those mentioned recordings.

Don't get me wrong, I think the bootleg BA is the best ever live recording of any band, but part of its brilliance lies in the recording, mixing and mastering. Take Richards' guitar for example: dark, heavy and moody on the entire tour, and bright and aggressive on the boot BA release.

Mathijs

Read my post again. I didn't say Rotterdam sounded like BA, but that boot captures the Rotterdam (and undoubtedly also Brussels) sound the best. The Rotterdam shows were comparable to Brussels 1 anyway.

One thing is a fact: on the official Brussels Taylor's guitar is not audible enough compared to what was audible in the real shows. I recall quite well how powerful it was. The official BA mix is sterile at best. The best boot versions of BA come closest to the shows as they were. You weren't there, I was. And again: it was Taylor's guitar that dominated them. I don't say that as a Taylor fan or whatever you want to call me, but I'm just stating a hard fact. Unbelievable anyway that you have an opinion about something you don't know nothing about.

I wasn’t there. But that doesn’t mean anything: after 41 years your memory is as good as my memory from that concert. Everything you state as an actual memory is fed by all the years of listening to the BA boots. You are just one hell of an unreliable witness.

Anyways, take the best BA radio broadcast recording (for example, VGP’s Europe ’73 5th Edition), and compare it track by track with the audience recording of the first Brussels show, the audience and SB recording of the second Brussels show, and with the official BA release.
The following can be heard:

1. The audience tape reveals that the live sound is incredibly bass heavy, Taylor’s guitar is very mid heavy, and Richards guitar is heavily distorted and razor sharp. The sound (meaning: the sound of the individual instruments) of the official BA release is best captured by the official release.

2. The drum sound of the official release sound very modern on some tracks (Happy, Gimme Shelter), and is not reflective of the sound on the audience recording. The drum sounds is captured perfectly on the BA boots. However, from Angie on, the drum sound on the official release changes, and sound more like the audience tape and boots. But still, especially the snare drum on the official release doesn’t have the snap and crackle Charlie is so famous for.

3. The bass on the audience recording is way too loud, as is on most 1973 audience recordings. This bass is very well captured on the BA radio broadcast, but not so much on the official release. Here, the bass doesn’t fatten the sound as much, but it is much more a stand-alone instrument.

4. The official release is mixed very much ‘in your face’. The sound is direct, upfront and loud and brutal. This is a modern, compressed representation compared to the boots, which are all mixed with an abundance of reverb. On the boots the audience and hall sound are actual parts of the mix, making it sound ‘airy’ and ‘spacy’, indeed like you are there, somewhere front row. This sound comes closer to the audience tapes.

5. The mix on the official release is much better than on any boot. Most of Taylor’s rhythm guitar is difficult to hear on the various bootlegs and on the audience tapes, on the official release it is loud, clear and upfront. Listen to his rhythm work HTW and MR for example; quite absent on the boots, and in your face on the official release. The main difference is during Taylor’s solo spots: on the radio broadcast the solo’s (TD, Angie) are loud and clear, with a more overdriven sound, whereas on the audience tape and official release the solo’s are more subdued; they remain more part of the music and mix. This can only mean one thing: Taylor’s guitar sound is altered during mixdown for the radiobroadcast, most likely by upping the fader and increasing the mid on the EQ.

My conclusion: the official release captures the actual sound and level of the guitars much better than the radio broadcast and audience tape. The drum sound is on several tracks of the official release is quite processed and far off of how it actually sounded, but on tracks (midway from the set) that improves. The bass is much better on the radio broadcast, and overwhelming on the audience recording.

The radio broadcast is mixed in a typical ‘70’s way, with warm bass and added dimension through reverb; it just sound very much analogue, something that still can not be met by digital formats. It sounds very much live, and not so much in your face as the official release. The guitar separation is not as good as on the official release, and Taylor is mixed way higher on the official release than on the radio broadcast, still the broadcast is a better over listening experience.

The difference is maybe best described as this: with the radio broadcast you are listening from row 23, and with the official release you are standing on the stage, right next to Jagger who’s shouting in your ear.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-10 16:28 by Mathijs.

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Mathijs

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kleermaker

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Mathijs

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kleermaker

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Mathijs

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kevinkamphuis


The Stones themselves already did this with the archive release of The Brussels affair. It didn't sound like that in 1973...

The official release sounds closer to how the show sounded in 1973 than the processed BA radio broadcast. The fact that most of us prefer the radio broadcast doesn't mean it is a faithful representation of the actual show.

Mathijs

No it doesn't. I was in Rotterdam 1973, not so much different from Brussels shows and the bootleg Brussels Definitive and others capture the sound of the show MUCH better than the lifeless archive release does. In fact the archive release doesn't capture it at all.

Which is all bollocks. After 41 years you think Rotterdam sounded like BA, but it sure didn't. BA sounds completely different to any audience tape and any soundboard tape, or Preston's live album. And the official BA sounds very close to what you can hear on those mentioned recordings.

Don't get me wrong, I think the bootleg BA is the best ever live recording of any band, but part of its brilliance lies in the recording, mixing and mastering. Take Richards' guitar for example: dark, heavy and moody on the entire tour, and bright and aggressive on the boot BA release.

Mathijs

Read my post again. I didn't say Rotterdam sounded like BA, but that boot captures the Rotterdam (and undoubtedly also Brussels) sound the best. The Rotterdam shows were comparable to Brussels 1 anyway.

One thing is a fact: on the official Brussels Taylor's guitar is not audible enough compared to what was audible in the real shows. I recall quite well how powerful it was. The official BA mix is sterile at best. The best boot versions of BA come closest to the shows as they were. You weren't there, I was. And again: it was Taylor's guitar that dominated them. I don't say that as a Taylor fan or whatever you want to call me, but I'm just stating a hard fact. Unbelievable anyway that you have an opinion about something you don't know nothing about.

I wasn’t there. But that doesn’t mean anything: after 41 years your memory is as good as my memory from that concert. Everything you state as an actual memory is fed by all the years of listening to the BA boots. You are just one hell of an unreliable witness.

Anyways, take the best BA radio broadcast recording (for example, VGP’s Europe ’73 5th Edition), and compare it track by track with the audience recording of the first Brussels show, the audience and SB recording of the second Brussels show, and with the official BA release.
The following can be heard:

1. The audience tape reveals that the live sound is incredibly bass heavy, Taylor’s guitar is very mid heavy, and Richards guitar is heavily distorted and razor sharp. The sound (meaning: the sound of the individual instruments) of the official BA release is best captured by the official release.

2. The drum sound of the official release sound very modern on some tracks (Happy, Gimme Shelter), and is not reflective of the sound on the audience recording. The drum sounds is captured perfectly on the BA boots. However, from Angie on the drum sound on the official release changes, and sound more like the audience tape and boots. But still, especially the snare drum on the official release doesn’t have the snack and crackle Charlie is so famous for.

3. The bass on the audience recording is way too loud, as is on most 1973 audience recordings. This bass is very well captured on the BA radio broadcast, but not so much on the official release. Here, the bass doesn’t fatten the sound as much, but it is much more a stand-alone instrument.

4. The official release is mixed very much ‘in your face’. The sound is direct, upfront and loud and brutal. This is a modern, compressed representation compared to the boots, which are all mixed but an abundance of reverb. On the boots the audience and hall sound are actual parts of the mix, making it sound ‘airy’ and ‘spacy’, indeed like you are there, somewhere front row. This sound comes closer to the audience tapes.

5. The mix on the official release is much better than on any boot. Most of Taylor’s rhythm guitar is difficult to hear on the various bootlegs and on the audience tapes, on the official release it is loud, clear and upfront. Listen to his rhythm work HTW and MR for example; quite absent on the boots, and in your face on the official release. The main difference is during Taylor’s solo spots: on the radio broadcast the solo’s (TD, Angie) are loud and clear, with a more overdriven sound, whereas on the audience tape and official release the solo’s are more subdued; they remain more part of the music and mix. This can only mean one thing: Taylor’s guitar sound is altered during mixdown for the radiobroadcast, most likely by upping the fader and increasing the mid on the EQ.

My conclusion: the official release captures the actual sound and level of the guitars much better than the radio broadcast and audience tape. The drum sound is on several tracks of the official release is quite processed and far off of how it actually sounded, but on tracks (midway from the set) that improves. The bass is much better on the radio broadcast, and overwhelming on the audience recording.

The radio broadcast is mixed in a typical ‘70’s way, with warm bass and added dimension through reverb; it just sound very much analogue, something that still can not be met by digital formats. It sounds very much live, and not so much in your face as the official release. The guitar separation is not as good as on the official release, and Taylor is mixed way higher on the official release than on the radio broadcast, still the broadcast is a better over listening experience.

The difference is maybe best described as this: with the radio broadcast you are listening from row 23, and with the official release you are standing on the stage, right next to Jagger who’s shouting in your ear.

Mathijs

I don't like Jagger to shout in my ear, but to hear the great music.
So I'm waiting for Kevin's 'remix' of the official Brussels, where Taylor isn't in the extreme left of the left channel. He never was there in reality.

<So I'm waiting for Kevin's 'remix' of the official Brussels>

He has access to the tracks??

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DandelionPowderman
<So I'm waiting for Kevin's 'remix' of the official Brussels>

He has access to the tracks??

Did you listen to his GS-sample up here? It's amazing and another proof of my statement about the unbalance of the official recording as I have explained very clearly.

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
<So I'm waiting for Kevin's 'remix' of the official Brussels>

He has access to the tracks??

Did you listen to his GS-sample up here? It's amazing and another proof of my statement about the unbalance of the official recording as I have explained very clearly.

You did.......8 times allready. Try to give it a little rest.

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
<So I'm waiting for Kevin's 'remix' of the official Brussels>

He has access to the tracks??

Did you listen to his GS-sample up here? It's amazing and another proof of my statement about the unbalance of the official recording as I have explained very clearly.

Yes, but you said something about mixing.

It's only unbalanced for a "biased" ear

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
<So I'm waiting for Kevin's 'remix' of the official Brussels>

He has access to the tracks??

Did you listen to his GS-sample up here? It's amazing and another proof of my statement about the unbalance of the official recording as I have explained very clearly.

Yes, but you said something about mixing.

It's only unbalanced for a "biased" ear

I put the word remix between ' '. You can call my ears biased, but that's not right in this special case. Comparing the different bits Kevin offered us in his sample it has to be obvious for all ears, whether they are taylorite or not.

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kleermaker

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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

Great work, Kevin! I really would love to hear the whole archive BA the way you 'made' it. It's an amazing improvement. So if you would like to do it, I would love to have it.

Thanks Kleermaker. Yesterday I completed GS. I'll do the whole BA, but it can take some time (about a week I guess)

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kevinkamphuis

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kleermaker

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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

Great work, Kevin! I really would love to hear the whole archive BA the way you 'made' it. It's an amazing improvement. So if you would like to do it, I would love to have it.

Thanks Kleermaker. Yesterday I completed GS. I'll do the whole BA, but it can take some time (about a week I guess)

Fantastic Kevin! I'm looking forward to it, but no need to hurry of course. Take your time. I'm already glad to know I'll hear the improved version.

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kleermaker

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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

Great work, Kevin! I really would love to hear the whole archive BA the way you 'made' it. It's an amazing improvement. So if you would like to do it, I would love to have it.

Amazing difference. Here's another hand up for a remix of the official Brussels. Any chance of releasing them in MP3 format too?

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muffie

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kleermaker

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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

Great work, Kevin! I really would love to hear the whole archive BA the way you 'made' it. It's an amazing improvement. So if you would like to do it, I would love to have it.

Amazing difference. Here's another hand up for a remix of the official Brussels. Any chance of releasing them in MP3 format too?

I don't like the MP3 format because it's lossy. It will be available in FLAC.

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kevinkamphuis
Here is a new mix of the alternate Brown Sugar with Mick Taylor's lead solo's way higher in the mix

[www.dropbox.com]

Very nice work Kevin!
I'll pass it through to some other people who would like to hear.
How and when did you decide to do this?

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
<So I'm waiting for Kevin's 'remix' of the official Brussels>

He has access to the tracks??

Did you listen to his GS-sample up here? It's amazing and another proof of my statement about the unbalance of the official recording as I have explained very clearly.

Yes, but you said something about mixing.

It's only unbalanced for a "biased" ear

I put the word remix between ' '. You can call my ears biased, but that's not right in this special case. Comparing the different bits Kevin offered us in his sample it has to be obvious for all ears, whether they are taylorite or not.

I don't doubt that, or Kevin's nice work.

When it comes to louder Taylor solos, you'll always be biased - let's agree on that

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
<So I'm waiting for Kevin's 'remix' of the official Brussels>

He has access to the tracks??

Did you listen to his GS-sample up here? It's amazing and another proof of my statement about the unbalance of the official recording as I have explained very clearly.

Yes, but you said something about mixing.

It's only unbalanced for a "biased" ear

I put the word remix between ' '. You can call my ears biased, but that's not right in this special case. Comparing the different bits Kevin offered us in his sample it has to be obvious for all ears, whether they are taylorite or not.

I don't doubt that, or Kevin's nice work.

When it comes to louder Taylor solos, you'll always be biased - let's agree on that

Okay I will confirm that, just to please you. But in this case it has nothing to do with louder Taylor solos, it's just a fact that you can verify by listening with earphones of earplugs. It's simply undeniable, whether it's Taylor or not.

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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

This sounds like shit. If you change the stereo image on a two track tape you will run into phasing problems, which you can hear here: thin, trebly out-of-phase sound. Swoooosh goes the cymbles....

And why does your unaltered bits sound much worse than the original download?

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-11 23:35 by Mathijs.

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Mathijs

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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

This sounds like shit. If you change the stereo image on a two track tape you will run into phasing problems, which you can hear here: thin, trebly out-of-phase sound. Swoooosh goes the cymbles....

And why does your unaltered bits sound much worse than the original download?

Mathijs

Those unaltered bits sound exactly the same as the official GS from BA that I have downloaded. I even made a video to compare the unbalanced official BA Street FM to the bootleg version of the same song. Listen to both yourself:

I just really don't understand Kleermaker, not at all. I have about 30 releases of BA, and there's basically two kind of mixes: the releases from the first broadcast have the guitars mixed fairly mono. The release from the second broadcast, like the 'Definitive Edition' have exactly the same guitar mix as the official release: Richards halfway the right channel (45 dC), Taylor far left channel (-90 dC).

The bootlegs from the second broadcast do sound better: the drums have a very wide spectrum and sound much, much better, the guitars sound full and fat, they are boosted at mixdown and mastering. Through the reverb and audience mike it gives a fantastic live feeling, whereas the official release sounds more like a very good soundboard recording.

Mathijs

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kleermaker

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Mathijs

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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

This sounds like shit. If you change the stereo image on a two track tape you will run into phasing problems, which you can hear here: thin, trebly out-of-phase sound. Swoooosh goes the cymbles....

And why does your unaltered bits sound much worse than the original download?

Mathijs

Those unaltered bits sound exactly the same as the official GS from BA that I have downloaded. I even made a video to compare the unbalanced official BA Street FM to the bootleg version of the same song. Listen to both yourself:

No they don't. I am listening to the original download and those bit right now, both through active monitors and a very expensive headphone. The bits by Kevin sound dull and unsteady. The bass is wobling.

Maybe you guys should invest in some audio equipment. Listening to digital stuff though the soundcard of your laptop gives a shit sound. And Youtube compresses the shit out of everything, just like FM radio.

Your two tracks of SM have exactly the same mix, but different EQ-ing. The official release is very mid-heavy, with compressed drums, the radio broadcast has hardly any mids, and mostly bass and trebly. I do prefer the radio broadcast, even though this version is very, very trebly. When you're over 60 you probably prefer this...

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-11 23:58 by Mathijs.

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Mathijs

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kleermaker

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Mathijs

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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

This sounds like shit. If you change the stereo image on a two track tape you will run into phasing problems, which you can hear here: thin, trebly out-of-phase sound. Swoooosh goes the cymbles....

And why does your unaltered bits sound much worse than the original download?

Mathijs

Those unaltered bits sound exactly the same as the official GS from BA that I have downloaded. I even made a video to compare the unbalanced official BA Street FM to the bootleg version of the same song. Listen to both yourself:

No they don't. I am listening to the original download and those bit right now, both through active monitors and a very expensive headphone. The bits by Kevin sound dull and unsteady. The bass is wobling.

Maybe you guys should invest in some audio equipment. Listening to digital stuff though the soundcard of your laptop gives a shit sound.

Mathijs

But how do you explain then the evident difference between the two versions of SFM from YT that I just posted? I do listen through very good earphones and my computer. And I don't have the problems you mentioned with any other music. How is that possible? Anyway, Kevin's bits don't suffer from the unbalance I clearly hear on the official BA. And that isn't due to any soundcard or whatever audio equipment.

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Mathijs

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kleermaker

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Mathijs

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kevinkamphuis
Kleermaker, you're right.

I took the official "Gimme Shelter" from Brussels 2nd Show and mixed it like the Brussels Affair bootleg. Taylor is more audible in this mix

Here's the sampler
[www.dropbox.com]

This sounds like shit. If you change the stereo image on a two track tape you will run into phasing problems, which you can hear here: thin, trebly out-of-phase sound. Swoooosh goes the cymbles....

And why does your unaltered bits sound much worse than the original download?

Mathijs

Those unaltered bits sound exactly the same as the official GS from BA that I have downloaded. I even made a video to compare the unbalanced official BA Street FM to the bootleg version of the same song. Listen to both yourself:

No they don't. I am listening to the original download and those bit right now, both through active monitors and a very expensive headphone. The bits by Kevin sound dull and unsteady. The bass is wobling.

Maybe you guys should invest in some audio equipment. Listening to digital stuff though the soundcard of your laptop gives a shit sound. And Youtube compresses the shit out of everything, just like FM radio.

Your two tracks of SM have exactly the same mix, but different EQ-ing. The official release is very mid-heavy, with compressed drums, the radio broadcast has hardly any mids, and mostly bass and trebly. I do prefer the radio broadcast, even though this version is very, very trebly. When you're over 60 you probably prefer this...

Mathijs

Mathijs, there's nothing wrong with my audio setup

I've just finished the whole BA with some minor changes (from the previous mix). Sorry, but if you say the bootleg SFM has the same mix as the official (with the difference of some EQ) then you don't get it...

Please keep listening to the official BA. There are lots of other people who would like to hear the 'newly mastered' version.

I'm waiting for your new official BA version Kevin. Very interesting, as the sound of the official BA isn't satisfying at all to me. But well, didn't I say that before?

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kleermaker
I'm waiting for your new official BA version Kevin. Very interesting, as the sound of the official BA isn't satisfying at all to me. But well, didn't I say that before?

I don't like the sound of the official BA either. Send me a mail for the DL

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kevinkamphuis

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kleermaker
I'm waiting for your new official BA version Kevin. Very interesting, as the sound of the official BA isn't satisfying at all to me. But well, didn't I say that before?

I don't like the sound of the official BA either. Send me a mail for the DL

Done!

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nightskyman

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Mathijs
This is one of the ten or so takes available. It's great to listen to all takes starting with the one from Muscle Shoals and ending with the final, released take; you can hear what Jagger and Richards had in mind for this track, while trying out different parts like rhythm and solo guitars. In the end all guitars except for Richards original rhythm track are erased, and new tracks are overdubbed by Richards himself.

Mathijs

Is there a disc that has all of these?

It would be great to have them all in one place, in as much chrono order as possible.

Also, this is something I wish the Stones would do. Release CDs showing the birth and evolution of a classic track. One song per CD; maybe 10-12 tracks. Show how Brown Sugar or Midnight Rambler or even Start Me Up was created and how it was shaped into the song we (presumably) love today!

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kleermaker

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kevinkamphuis

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kleermaker
I'm waiting for your new official BA version Kevin. Very interesting, as the sound of the official BA isn't satisfying at all to me. But well, didn't I say that before?

I don't like the sound of the official BA either. Send me a mail for the DL

Done!

You've got mail

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kevinkamphuis

Mathijs, there's nothing wrong with my audio setup

I am afraid there is: the unaltered bits of GS in your sampler sound worse than the original download version. So during bouncing something happens.

Mathijs

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kevinkamphuis

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kleermaker

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kevinkamphuis

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kleermaker
I'm waiting for your new official BA version Kevin. Very interesting, as the sound of the official BA isn't satisfying at all to me. But well, didn't I say that before?

I don't like the sound of the official BA either. Send me a mail for the DL

Done!

You've got mail

Got it! Many thanks, I'm gonna listen to it.

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kevinkamphuis

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kleermaker
I'm waiting for your new official BA version Kevin. Very interesting, as the sound of the official BA isn't satisfying at all to me. But well, didn't I say that before?

I don't like the sound of the official BA either. Send me a mail for the DL

Ditto. Could I also get a download link to the Kevin remix of the official BA please?

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muffie

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kevinkamphuis

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kleermaker
I'm waiting for your new official BA version Kevin. Very interesting, as the sound of the official BA isn't satisfying at all to me. But well, didn't I say that before?

I don't like the sound of the official BA either. Send me a mail for the DL

Ditto. Could I also get a download link to the Kevin remix of the official BA please?

Muffie, send me a mail for the DL