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FP

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smokeydusky

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.
Mathijs

Rather than the "I hear it"/"I hear it not" thing, you can see in both CS Blues and the Dick Cavett Show during the third verse, Taylor appears to be playing a "Berry-like rhythm" with his left hand and strumming (not tremolo picking) with his right.

By '73, was doing something different with the slide.

(In BS, I'd call what he used to do quavers, starting with the version at Altamont. I hear him tremolo picking in SV and during CYHMK in 2013.)

I am not sure what you mean by "tremelo"? Do you mean the guitar effect produced by a peddle, which I would say the right hand guitar on "I Got The Blues" has applied or do you mean "arpeggio" as in picking the notes of a chord rather than strumming he chord? From what I can see of the live performances Taylor plays some arpeggios of the chords and then basically doubles up Richards guitar chords with the same "Chuck Berry" groove but in standard tuning rather than open G. While on the alternate take below he does the same and adds a brief solo. It is interesting that the counter melody he developed over the chorus in live performance happened later than the recording, showing how working a song in live can bring up cool ideas. I prefer the live versions of many of their songs simply because the LP version is over familiar and Taylor (when not over playing) adds some nice extra melodies. I actually feel like something is missing when I hear the studio version of BS now when I listen to it!

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Mathijs

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smokeydusky

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.
Mathijs

Rather than the "I hear it"/"I hear it not" thing, you can see in both CS Blues and the Dick Cavett Show during the third verse, Taylor appears to be playing a "Berry-like rhythm" with his left hand and strumming (not tremolo picking) with his right.

By '73, was doing something different with the slide.

(In BS, I'd call what he used to do quavers, starting with the version at Altamont. I hear him tremolo picking in SV and during CYHMK in 2013.)

Absolutely correct. The tremelo picked guitar is during the Eflat/C/Aflat/Bflat portion, which live he also sometimes played with slide. During the verses Taylor normally plays a Berry-style rhythm live.

Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker
As for I Got The Blues, who plays which guitar? I think Taylor on the right, Richards on the left. What do you think, Dandie?

This song is, together with Shake Your Hips, an example of beautiful weaving by Taylor and Keith.

On I Got The Blues, Taylor starts the song in the left channel (in my headphones anyway), while Keith's guitar is in the right.

It's kinda hard to tell who's who in this, because Taylor is playing lots of licks that Keith normally would do (1:47, for instance). His precision reveals him, though

Taylor on left, Richards right. Taylor is the dry clean tone, Richards the guitar with the tremelo effect.

Mathijs

I doubted it, and thought he would be on the right, so I said that (because they can fool us, those guys, you know). But the main reason is that the left guitar starts the song and normally Richards is the first one can hear. But the bluesy sound of the left guitar resembles Taylor on IGTB during the Marquee 'show' in 71. So now I also think Taylor is on the left.

He is on the left, and he is indeed starting the song, just as he does on Bitch

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FP
What about the guitar parts on Dead Flowers and Bitch? On Dead Flowers I always assumed the left hand soloing that sounds like a peddle steel was Al Perkins but when I got the CD the credits say Taylor as lead guitar? If this is so Does Keith do the main solo? And on Bitch is it Richards or Taylor on lead as Taylor says it's him while everyone else thinks Keith!

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Eleanor Rigby

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Mathijs

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smokeydusky

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.
Mathijs

Rather than the "I hear it"/"I hear it not" thing, you can see in both CS Blues and the Dick Cavett Show during the third verse, Taylor appears to be playing a "Berry-like rhythm" with his left hand and strumming (not tremolo picking) with his right.

By '73, was doing something different with the slide.

(In BS, I'd call what he used to do quavers, starting with the version at Altamont. I hear him tremolo picking in SV and during CYHMK in 2013.)

Absolutely correct. The tremelo picked guitar is during the Eflat/C/Aflat/Bflat portion, which live he also sometimes played with slide. During the verses Taylor normally plays a Berry-style rhythm live.

Mathijs

The Nicaragua show from 73 give a great indication what Taylor does on this song live.
He is way loud on that tape.
I doubt dandie and HM ever play that show :-)

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LuxuryStones

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FP

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smokeydusky

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.
Mathijs

Rather than the "I hear it"/"I hear it not" thing, you can see in both CS Blues and the Dick Cavett Show during the third verse, Taylor appears to be playing a "Berry-like rhythm" with his left hand and strumming (not tremolo picking) with his right.

By '73, was doing something different with the slide.

(In BS, I'd call what he used to do quavers, starting with the version at Altamont. I hear him tremolo picking in SV and during CYHMK in 2013.)

I am not sure what you mean by "tremelo"? Do you mean the guitar effect produced by a peddle, which I would say the right hand guitar on "I Got The Blues" has applied or do you mean "arpeggio" as in picking the notes of a chord rather than strumming he chord? From what I can see of the live performances Taylor plays some arpeggios of the chords and then basically doubles up Richards guitar chords with the same "Chuck Berry" groove but in standard tuning rather than open G. While on the alternate take below he does the same and adds a brief solo. It is interesting that the counter melody he developed over the chorus in live performance happened later than the recording, showing how working a song in live can bring up cool ideas. I prefer the live versions of many of their songs simply because the LP version is over familiar and Taylor (when not over playing) adds some nice extra melodies. I actually feel like something is missing when I hear the studio version of BS now when I listen to it!

Taylor never overplayed on stage, imo.

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DandelionPowderman

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Eleanor Rigby

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Mathijs

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smokeydusky

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.
Mathijs

Rather than the "I hear it"/"I hear it not" thing, you can see in both CS Blues and the Dick Cavett Show during the third verse, Taylor appears to be playing a "Berry-like rhythm" with his left hand and strumming (not tremolo picking) with his right.

By '73, was doing something different with the slide.

(In BS, I'd call what he used to do quavers, starting with the version at Altamont. I hear him tremolo picking in SV and during CYHMK in 2013.)

Absolutely correct. The tremelo picked guitar is during the Eflat/C/Aflat/Bflat portion, which live he also sometimes played with slide. During the verses Taylor normally plays a Berry-style rhythm live.

Mathijs

The Nicaragua show from 73 give a great indication what Taylor does on this song live.
He is way loud on that tape.
I doubt dandie and HM ever play that show :-)

More than you think

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kleermaker

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FP
What about the guitar parts on Dead Flowers and Bitch? On Dead Flowers I always assumed the left hand soloing that sounds like a peddle steel was Al Perkins but when I got the CD the credits say Taylor as lead guitar? If this is so Does Keith do the main solo? And on Bitch is it Richards or Taylor on lead as Taylor says it's him while everyone else thinks Keith!

It's Keith, but Taylor's rhythm guitar sounds like lead.

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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Eleanor Rigby

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Mathijs

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smokeydusky

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.
Mathijs

Rather than the "I hear it"/"I hear it not" thing, you can see in both CS Blues and the Dick Cavett Show during the third verse, Taylor appears to be playing a "Berry-like rhythm" with his left hand and strumming (not tremolo picking) with his right.

By '73, was doing something different with the slide.

(In BS, I'd call what he used to do quavers, starting with the version at Altamont. I hear him tremolo picking in SV and during CYHMK in 2013.)

Absolutely correct. The tremelo picked guitar is during the Eflat/C/Aflat/Bflat portion, which live he also sometimes played with slide. During the verses Taylor normally plays a Berry-style rhythm live.

Mathijs

The Nicaragua show from 73 give a great indication what Taylor does on this song live.
He is way loud on that tape.
I doubt dandie and HM ever play that show :-)

More than you think

I doubt if His M. knows this boot. Listening to it would make him itchy.

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kleermaker

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LuxuryStones
Taylor never overplayed on stage, imo.

Even better: Taylor never overplayed.

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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FP
What about the guitar parts on Dead Flowers and Bitch? On Dead Flowers I always assumed the left hand soloing that sounds like a peddle steel was Al Perkins but when I got the CD the credits say Taylor as lead guitar? If this is so Does Keith do the main solo? And on Bitch is it Richards or Taylor on lead as Taylor says it's him while everyone else thinks Keith!

It's Keith, but Taylor's rhythm guitar sounds like lead.

Keith is playing lead through the whole song, as well as acoustic guitar.

Taylor plays longer licks, though, during the verses and the choruses - and eventually the solo.

Keith did a hilarious mistake in there, btw (3:17)

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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Eleanor Rigby

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Mathijs

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smokeydusky

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Mathijs

Quote
FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.
Mathijs

Rather than the "I hear it"/"I hear it not" thing, you can see in both CS Blues and the Dick Cavett Show during the third verse, Taylor appears to be playing a "Berry-like rhythm" with his left hand and strumming (not tremolo picking) with his right.

By '73, was doing something different with the slide.

(In BS, I'd call what he used to do quavers, starting with the version at Altamont. I hear him tremolo picking in SV and during CYHMK in 2013.)

Absolutely correct. The tremelo picked guitar is during the Eflat/C/Aflat/Bflat portion, which live he also sometimes played with slide. During the verses Taylor normally plays a Berry-style rhythm live.

Mathijs

The Nicaragua show from 73 give a great indication what Taylor does on this song live.
He is way loud on that tape.
I doubt dandie and HM ever play that show :-)

More than you think

I doubt if His M. knows this boot. Listening to it would make him itchy.

Of course he does! They played It's All Over Now, Route 66 and Stray Cat Blues

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kleermaker

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Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker
As for I Got The Blues, who plays which guitar? I think Taylor on the right, Richards on the left. What do you think, Dandie?

This song is, together with Shake Your Hips, an example of beautiful weaving by Taylor and Keith.

On I Got The Blues, Taylor starts the song in the left channel (in my headphones anyway), while Keith's guitar is in the right.

It's kinda hard to tell who's who in this, because Taylor is playing lots of licks that Keith normally would do (1:47, for instance). His precision reveals him, though

Taylor on left, Richards right. Taylor is the dry clean tone, Richards the guitar with the tremelo effect.

Mathijs

I doubted it, and thought he would be on the right, so I said that (because they can fool us, those guys, you know). But the main reason is that the left guitar starts the song and normally Richards is the first one can hear. But the bluesy sound of the left guitar resembles Taylor on IGTB during the Marquee 'show' in 71. So now I also think Taylor is on the left.

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FP

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smokeydusky

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.
Mathijs

Rather than the "I hear it"/"I hear it not" thing, you can see in both CS Blues and the Dick Cavett Show during the third verse, Taylor appears to be playing a "Berry-like rhythm" with his left hand and strumming (not tremolo picking) with his right.

By '73, was doing something different with the slide.

(In BS, I'd call what he used to do quavers, starting with the version at Altamont. I hear him tremolo picking in SV and during CYHMK in 2013.)

I am not sure what you mean by "tremelo"? Do you mean the guitar effect produced by a peddle, which I would say the right hand guitar on "I Got The Blues" has applied or do you mean "arpeggio" as in picking the notes of a chord rather than strumming he chord? From what I can see of the live performances Taylor plays some arpeggios of the chords and then basically doubles up Richards guitar chords with the same "Chuck Berry" groove but in standard tuning rather than open G. While on the alternate take below he does the same and adds a brief solo. It is interesting that the counter melody he developed over the chorus in live performance happened later than the recording, showing how working a song in live can bring up cool ideas. I prefer the live versions of many of their songs simply because the LP version is over familiar and Taylor (when not over playing) adds some nice extra melodies. I actually feel like something is missing when I hear the studio version of BS now when I listen to it!





There is also this one from 1969 with some slide by Taylor I presume?

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kleermaker
Indeed, two exceptions to the rule. I don't know any more by heart (if there are any).

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kleermaker

I'm curious about his comment on All Over Now and Route.

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Richards plays all guitars. Taylor's original part as can be heard on the outtakes, have been removed completely for the released track. What you hear is about five Keith parts. Left is the original open G track from Muscle Shoals, right is a rhtyhm track by Richards that is composed from three or 4 tracks. There's 2 guitars doing little one-string runs, a stanard tuned guitar doing a Berry-like rhythm, and during the verses (woo!) there's an overdub of an open G tuned guitar. And Richards does the acoustic. But basically, Taylor doesn't play on the released version of BS.

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.

There's about 6 or 7 outtakes of BS, and it is very interesting to hear how the production continued, with Richards first taking bits out of Taylor's track and overdubbing onto it, then replacing it altogether. Version III even has an overdubbed solo that sounds like Taylor, later removed again.

Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

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DiscoVolante
I've always seen Sticky Fingers (and Goats Head Soup) as a Jagger/Taylor album; while Let it bleed and Exile being Keith's.

Brown Sugar
Wild Horses
CYHMK
YGM
Bitch
IGTB
SM
DF

Sway and MM are probably the only songs that somewhat fit your description.

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elunsi

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DandelionPowderman

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DiscoVolante
I've always seen Sticky Fingers (and Goats Head Soup) as a Jagger/Taylor album; while Let it bleed and Exile being Keith's.

Brown Sugar
Wild Horses
CYHMK
YGM
Bitch
IGTB
SM
DF

Sway and MM are probably the only songs that somewhat fit your description.

Maybe not a Jagger/Taylor album, but a Jagger album. He has at least 5 songs written mainly by him.
Which brings me back to the discussion about what M.Taylor said, that MJ was the main song-writer and you said until 1972 it was Keith who wrote most of the songs. I think this album proofs that Mick was a full song (-music, meldoy) writer, not only the lyricwriter, much earlier than 1972.

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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FP
What about the guitar parts on Dead Flowers and Bitch? On Dead Flowers I always assumed the left hand soloing that sounds like a peddle steel was Al Perkins but when I got the CD the credits say Taylor as lead guitar? If this is so Does Keith do the main solo? And on Bitch is it Richards or Taylor on lead as Taylor says it's him while everyone else thinks Keith!

It's Keith, but Taylor's rhythm guitar sounds like lead.

Keith is playing lead through the whole song, as well as acoustic guitar.

Taylor plays longer licks, though, during the verses and the choruses - and eventually the solo.

Keith did a hilarious mistake in there, btw (3:17)

My remark concerned Bitch. As for DF: two lead guitars I would say. Taylor on the right and indeed playing the solo. In this song their styles are distinctive enough to recognize them both easily.

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

Quote
FP
What about the guitar parts on Dead Flowers and Bitch? On Dead Flowers I always assumed the left hand soloing that sounds like a peddle steel was Al Perkins but when I got the CD the credits say Taylor as lead guitar? If this is so Does Keith do the main solo? And on Bitch is it Richards or Taylor on lead as Taylor says it's him while everyone else thinks Keith!

It's Keith, but Taylor's rhythm guitar sounds like lead.

Keith is playing lead through the whole song, as well as acoustic guitar.

Taylor plays longer licks, though, during the verses and the choruses - and eventually the solo.

Keith did a hilarious mistake in there, btw (3:17)

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RobberBride

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FP


Sway
Did Keith write the chords and as he was not about Jagger learned them for the session or is it a Jagger song with Jagger/Richards credit

Would say its a Jagger song with a shared credit.

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Richards plays all guitars. Taylor's original part as can be heard on the outtakes, have been removed completely for the released track. What you hear is about five Keith parts. Left is the original open G track from Muscle Shoals, right is a rhtyhm track by Richards that is composed from three or 4 tracks. There's 2 guitars doing little one-string runs, a stanard tuned guitar doing a Berry-like rhythm, and during the verses (woo!) there's an overdub of an open G tuned guitar. And Richards does the acoustic. But basically, Taylor doesn't play on the released version of BS.

Live in 1972 and 1973 Taylor would play very close to his original rhythm track, which is a tremelo picked guitar.

There's about 6 or 7 outtakes of BS, and it is very interesting to hear how the production continued, with Richards first taking bits out of Taylor's track and overdubbing onto it, then replacing it altogether. Version III even has an overdubbed solo that sounds like Taylor, later removed again.

Mathijs

Quote
FP
Can't You Hear Me Knocking
Again in the interview above Taylor says Richards plays the famous opening riff on the right which seems quite obvious, although it is possible it has been double tracked by Taylor at some point as it is so fat! On the left there is another simpler rhythm part which I presume is Taylor but could also be Richards. This stays until the famous jam section. Taylor says that he simply kept playing when they came to the end of the song section and everyone else joined in, which means that the jazzy rhythm part that starts the jam at 2.43 on the right is Taylor? However it feels more like Richards with the elegant fills on the left under the sax solo being Taylor unless both parts are Taylor? The fills turn into the solo which is definitely Taylor. The solo is great IMO but I think Lester Bangs said he hoped the "boring solo" wasn't Richards when he reviewed the album! The final catchy riff at the end is started ion the lead guitar but doubled up by the rhythm part so could be a precomposed part by Richards, which suggests the jam was a planned thing rather than a spontaneous bit of luck.

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DandelionPowderman

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elunsi

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DandelionPowderman

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DiscoVolante
I've always seen Sticky Fingers (and Goats Head Soup) as a Jagger/Taylor album; while Let it bleed and Exile being Keith's.

Brown Sugar
Wild Horses
CYHMK
YGM
Bitch
IGTB
SM
DF

Sway and MM are probably the only songs that somewhat fit your description.

Maybe not a Jagger/Taylor album, but a Jagger album. He has at least 5 songs written mainly by him.
Which brings me back to the discussion about what M.Taylor said, that MJ was the main song-writer and you said until 1972 it was Keith who wrote most of the songs. I think this album proofs that Mick was a full song (-music, meldoy) writer, not only the lyricwriter, much earlier than 1972.

How do you know Mick wrote 5 songs by himself for this album?

We don't even know how much Keith contributed on, say, Sway. Did Mick teach him all the harmony vocals he did on the Hopkins tape, did he shape this himself, did Taylor write more than we know?

We just don't know - it's speculation, songwriting-wise.

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His Majesty

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kleermaker

I'm curious about his comment on All Over Now and Route.

The arrangement of It's All Over Now makes it a bit cheesy and predictable, the sax and guitar soloing weaken it. It lacks the power and energy of the TAMI show version and the groove and sexyness of the especially recorded for January 1967 London Palladium version.





Route 66 is cool, but boring compared to the expressive energetic freedom of the 1965 live version on Got Live ep/Decembers Children/Live 1965.



Those songs don't really suit Taylor line up at that time imo. I bet they would have done them better in 1969.

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Mathijs

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FP
Any idea who plays what on Brown Sugar?

Tremelo picked as in arpeggio indeed. PLaying the chord note by note instead of as one chord. Live taylor's part resembled the part he plays on this outtake, I guess it is the original take from Muscle Shoals, which in the end was dropped completely.

.

Mathijs

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His Majesty
I don't like that No Expectations, too slow and the slide is dodgy.

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straycatblues73

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His Majesty
I don't like that No Expectations, too slow and the slide is dodgy.

really ? I love keiths playing there and the slide is nice but easy too !