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William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: Deltics ()
Date: December 29, 2012 13:56

[www.bbc.co.uk]




"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: Rolling Hansie ()
Date: December 29, 2012 15:14

Thanks Deltics.

Keep On Rolling smoking smiley

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: December 29, 2012 15:18

love & light to him, and thanks & praises

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: December 29, 2012 15:27

An influential member of the establishment and also a free thinker who, with his famous editotial, did more than he could ever have imagined in giving the 'new hedonism' one of its first signs of acceptance. RIP William Rees-Mogg.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: tomcasagranda ()
Date: December 29, 2012 16:18

RIP Sir William.

His son Jacob is a top guy, and a very good Latinist.

While the butterfly wheel metaphor comes from Alexander Pope, I wonder if any Stones fan, who is also a classics graduate, knows that there is an actual Pompeian mosaic of a skull suspended upon a butterfly on a wheel. It can be found in a museum in Naples

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: Edith Grove ()
Date: December 29, 2012 17:15

First time I ever sat down and read this article.

Thanks, Deltics !


Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: MILKYWAY ()
Date: December 29, 2012 19:03

Only 84? I thought he was a good deal older than that.


Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: rebelrebel ()
Date: December 30, 2012 00:53

RIP William Rees-Mogg - God bless him.

With reference to the title of the editorial could you explain the metaphor and enlighten me on something I have wondered about for years, please and thank you?

Quote
tomcasagranda
RIP Sir William.

His son Jacob is a top guy, and a very good Latinist.

While the butterfly wheel metaphor comes from Alexander Pope, I wonder if any Stones fan, who is also a classics graduate, knows that there is an actual Pompeian mosaic of a skull suspended upon a butterfly on a wheel. It can be found in a museum in Naples

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: stonesrule ()
Date: December 30, 2012 04:37

That editorial was a significant moment in time for young music fans, particuarly in the UK.

No one was thinking about the next concert or ticket prices..

Many tears were shed over Mick and Keith when they were imprisoned and there was fear in numerous fans that they might not make it out alive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-30 04:39 by stonesrule.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: GravityBoy ()
Date: December 30, 2012 09:40

Quote
tomcasagranda
I wonder if any Stones fan, who is also a classics graduate....

We're all classic graduates.

Sticky Fingers is a classic.
Let it Bleed is a classic.
Beggars Banquet is a classic....

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: December 30, 2012 16:55

It's been a number of years since I read the article, thanks for posting.

RIP Mr. Rees-Mogg

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: tomcasagranda ()
Date: December 30, 2012 17:12

Quote
rebelrebel
RIP William Rees-Mogg - God bless him.

With reference to the title of the editorial could you explain the metaphor and enlighten me on something I have wondered about for years, please and thank you?

Quote
tomcasagranda
RIP Sir William.

His son Jacob is a top guy, and a very good Latinist.

While the butterfly wheel metaphor comes from Alexander Pope, I wonder if any Stones fan, who is also a classics graduate, knows that there is an actual Pompeian mosaic of a skull suspended upon a butterfly on a wheel. It can be found in a museum in Naples


Let Sporus tremble — "What? that thing of silk,
Sporus, that mere white curd of ass's milk?
Satire or sense, alas! can Sporus feel?
Who breaks a Butterfly upon a Wheel?"

The above is the exact quote from Alexander Pope's Epistle to Dr John Arbuthnot. Some background is required as to whom Sporus was. Within the sense of the Epistle, it is a reference to Lord Hervey (or Harvey), who was a notoriously effeminate figure in Pope's time.

Sporus also was, back in 2nd century AD, a youth who became a favourite of the Roman Emperor Nero. There was a story that Nero attempted to castrate Sporus to make him more female, which appears in Suetonius' Twelve Caesars.

The wheel refers to the Medieval torture implement, also known as the Catherine Wheel, used by the Inquisition inter alia. A butterfly placed upon a wheel suggests a wholly disproportionate punishment in relation to a trivial crime.

The Epistle to Arbuthnot also has the first use of the expression to "Damn with faint praise", and also shows why Pope decided to write satire. There's also a reference to the Dunciad, a previous satire by Pope.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: proudmary ()
Date: December 30, 2012 17:17

an extract from William Rees-Mogg memoirs

Mick Jagger pays a visit
In 1967, William Rees-Mogg became Editor of The Times — and a confidant to the powerful. In the first extract from his memoirs, he recalls the great and not so good -



A journalist never knows which, if any, articles will be remembered 30 years later. In my case it proved to be a leader on the Mick Jagger case, which I published on 1 July 1967. I criticised the judge for undue severity in a minor drugs case. I argued that the Jagger prison sentence was bad justice. Justice, I argued, ought to be the same for the rich and the poor, for the famous and the unknown. Jagger was a first offender who was caught with a French seasickness pill in his pocket. It was on open sale in France but required a prescription in England. I took a line from Alexander Pope — “who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel?” — as the title for the leading article.
Jagger’s views, in a subsequent television interview, were perhaps more important than he or we then realised; he took a libertarian view of ethical and social issues which turned out to be one of the constituents, though only one, of Thatcherism. It was not the soft-left Beatles but the libertarian Rolling Stones who best predicted the Anglo-American ideology of the 1980s. Mick Jagger was a Thatcherite before Thatcherism had been invented. Specifically, I remember being struck by the fact that Jagger used the classic John Stuart Mill On Liberty argument: that you are entitled to do anything which does not affect somebody else adversely. He argued that that is the test of the permissibility of human action. When Jagger made these remarks in 1967, the young were beginning to revolt against the limits put on liberty by Victorian tradition and wartime necessities and by socialist paternalism.
Later that summer, Mick Jagger visited me at Cowley Street; my daughters Emma and Charlotte, then aged 4 and 2, followed him up the stairs and were much struck by his red socks. He thanked me for my help, and asked me how to deal with some police blackmail he was facing. I have not met him since, but our youngest daughter, Annunziata, met him in the Caribbean. He told her: “I have a lot to thank your father for. He saved my career.”

[www.thetimes.co.uk]

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: tomcasagranda ()
Date: December 30, 2012 17:30

I wonder if Pope saw the Pompeian mosaic, Memento Mori, but there's also a loaded metaphor within the expression "Who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel". The word "butterfly" in ancient Greek was "Psyche", which was also the ancient Greek for "soul". The butterfly suspended upon the wheel, with the skull atop, is also a Masonic symbol, and Alexander Pope was a freemason.

It could be that Sir William Rees Mogg also was alluding to how a disproportionate punishment could have the effect of breaking someone's soul, or spirits, which was what society wished to do to our favourite Dartford Delta bluesmen.

The Memento Mori mosaic was displayed in the entrance hall to a Roman House in Pompeii, and it is allegorical, in that the skull, death, doesn't discriminate, and that the butterfly is the soul, and the wheel is fortune. It dates between 30BC and 40AD, or thereabouts.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: GravityBoy ()
Date: December 30, 2012 19:12

Quote
proudmary
he took a libertarian view of ethical and social issues which turned out to be one of the constituents, though only one, of Thatcherism. It was not the soft-left Beatles but the libertarian Rolling Stones who best predicted the Anglo-American ideology of the 1980s. Mick Jagger was a Thatcherite before Thatcherism had been invented. Specifically, I remember being struck by the fact that Jagger used the classic John Stuart Mill On Liberty argument: that you are entitled to do anything which does not affect somebody else adversely.

Bullsh*t Thatcherism.

Shutting down British industry certainly affected people adversely.

That's Tories for you.

They don't get it and think they can justify it by calling it "liberty".

I think Mick has become a Tory these days... eventually after a long journey.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: tomcasagranda ()
Date: December 30, 2012 19:20

Read Eminent Elizabethans and you'll get a grasp of how much Mick admired Lady Thatcher in the 80s.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: angee ()
Date: December 30, 2012 20:54

"Jagger used the classic John Stuart Mill On Liberty argument: that you are entitled to do anything which does not affect somebody else adversely."

In the US, the way I see it, this was more often phrased as "Do your own thing" and was assumed to have the caveat, perhaps neglected later on, as long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's happiness or rights. It was part of the hippie credo, and served to rebel against the conservatism of the post WWII years in the US, and the "organization man" mentality. Their was also the growing popularity of a more situational ethics rather than the strict beliefs of much of the previous generation about what was right and wrong.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Love is strong..."


byTeafoe

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: December 30, 2012 21:10

Quote
tomcasagranda
Quote
rebelrebel
RIP William Rees-Mogg - God bless him.

With reference to the title of the editorial could you explain the metaphor and enlighten me on something I have wondered about for years, please and thank you?

Quote
tomcasagranda
RIP Sir William.

His son Jacob is a top guy, and a very good Latinist.

While the butterfly wheel metaphor comes from Alexander Pope, I wonder if any Stones fan, who is also a classics graduate, knows that there is an actual Pompeian mosaic of a skull suspended upon a butterfly on a wheel. It can be found in a museum in Naples


Let Sporus tremble — "What? that thing of silk,
Sporus, that mere white curd of ass's milk?
Satire or sense, alas! can Sporus feel?
Who breaks a Butterfly upon a Wheel?"

The above is the exact quote from Alexander Pope's Epistle to Dr John Arbuthnot. Some background is required as to whom Sporus was. Within the sense of the Epistle, it is a reference to Lord Hervey (or Harvey), who was a notoriously effeminate figure in Pope's time.

Sporus also was, back in 2nd century AD, a youth who became a favourite of the Roman Emperor Nero. There was a story that Nero attempted to castrate Sporus to make him more female, which appears in Suetonius' Twelve Caesars.

The wheel refers to the Medieval torture implement, also known as the Catherine Wheel, used by the Inquisition inter alia. A butterfly placed upon a wheel suggests a wholly disproportionate punishment in relation to a trivial crime.

The Epistle to Arbuthnot also has the first use of the expression to "Damn with faint praise", and also shows why Pope decided to write satire. There's also a reference to the Dunciad, a previous satire by Pope.

A very scholarly set of responses here tomcasagranda. You're not, by any chance. a history or English lecturer are you?

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: Deltics ()
Date: December 30, 2012 21:18

William Rees-Mogg, along with Bishop of Woolwich Dr. John Robinson, Jesuit Priest Father Corbishley and Lord Stow Hill talk to Mick after his sentence was quashed.










"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: tomcasagranda ()
Date: December 30, 2012 21:57

Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
tomcasagranda
Quote
rebelrebel
RIP William Rees-Mogg - God bless him.

With reference to the title of the editorial could you explain the metaphor and enlighten me on something I have wondered about for years, please and thank you?

Quote
tomcasagranda
RIP Sir William.

His son Jacob is a top guy, and a very good Latinist.

While the butterfly wheel metaphor comes from Alexander Pope, I wonder if any Stones fan, who is also a classics graduate, knows that there is an actual Pompeian mosaic of a skull suspended upon a butterfly on a wheel. It can be found in a museum in Naples


Let Sporus tremble — "What? that thing of silk,
Sporus, that mere white curd of ass's milk?
Satire or sense, alas! can Sporus feel?
Who breaks a Butterfly upon a Wheel?"

The above is the exact quote from Alexander Pope's Epistle to Dr John Arbuthnot. Some background is required as to whom Sporus was. Within the sense of the Epistle, it is a reference to Lord Hervey (or Harvey), who was a notoriously effeminate figure in Pope's time.

Sporus also was, back in 2nd century AD, a youth who became a favourite of the Roman Emperor Nero. There was a story that Nero attempted to castrate Sporus to make him more female, which appears in Suetonius' Twelve Caesars.

The wheel refers to the Medieval torture implement, also known as the Catherine Wheel, used by the Inquisition inter alia. A butterfly placed upon a wheel suggests a wholly disproportionate punishment in relation to a trivial crime.

The Epistle to Arbuthnot also has the first use of the expression to "Damn with faint praise", and also shows why Pope decided to write satire. There's also a reference to the Dunciad, a previous satire by Pope.

A very scholarly set of responses here tomcasagranda. You're not, by any chance. a history or English lecturer are you?

Silver Dagger, a few background facts about me.

I am neither a history, nor English lecturer. I hold a first class degree (summa cum laude) in Classics from Reading University. I also hold a Masters in the Classical Tradition, too from Reading University, and am equally passionate about music, as I am about literature and history.

Classics is the study of ancient Latin and Greek history and literature. I majored in Latin (Roman) literature, and am familiar with Pompeii. Hence why I was able to describe "Memento Mori". I also did my dissertation on Roman Satire, and am exceedingly familiar with Alexander Pope, Samuel Johnson, and how they were influenced by Juvenal and Horace.

I am, unfortunately, unemployed, or is it unemployable, as I can talk at length about books, music, culture, but am unable to talk my way into a job. I am intelligent, but nobody wants a brain-box, who is a bit of a cold fish.

So there you go: a well-read, intelligent unemployable redundant graduate, who's excitement still rises at books and art.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: tomcasagranda ()
Date: December 30, 2012 22:01

whose, typo on my part, sorry.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: GravityBoy ()
Date: December 30, 2012 22:22

Quote
tomcasagranda
summa cum laude

Hey... wash your mouth out with soap.

No need for that dirty talk.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: tomcasagranda ()
Date: December 30, 2012 22:53

Quote
GravityBoy
Quote
tomcasagranda
summa cum laude

Hey... wash your mouth out with soap.

No need for that dirty talk.

Yes; if you send your CV, via email, sometimes it gets blocked due to profanity filters, as I do have "summa cum laude" when I wish to send my CV for jobs in the USA.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: rebelrebel ()
Date: December 31, 2012 00:45

Tomcasagranda, many thanks for your detailed and erudite explanation. I have wondered for years what that phrase meant and am so pleased to know. Regarding your situation at the moment you have my empathy, though I am currently employed. I hope I can hang onto the job for a few more years as I also feel somewhat unemployable though that says as much for my attitude as for whatever the reality may be. It's hard to operate in a world where bullshit reigns supreme.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: December 31, 2012 00:51

Quote
tomcasagranda
Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
tomcasagranda
Quote
rebelrebel
RIP William Rees-Mogg - God bless him.

With reference to the title of the editorial could you explain the metaphor and enlighten me on something I have wondered about for years, please and thank you?

Quote
tomcasagranda
RIP Sir William.

His son Jacob is a top guy, and a very good Latinist.

While the butterfly wheel metaphor comes from Alexander Pope, I wonder if any Stones fan, who is also a classics graduate, knows that there is an actual Pompeian mosaic of a skull suspended upon a butterfly on a wheel. It can be found in a museum in Naples


Let Sporus tremble — "What? that thing of silk,
Sporus, that mere white curd of ass's milk?
Satire or sense, alas! can Sporus feel?
Who breaks a Butterfly upon a Wheel?"

The above is the exact quote from Alexander Pope's Epistle to Dr John Arbuthnot. Some background is required as to whom Sporus was. Within the sense of the Epistle, it is a reference to Lord Hervey (or Harvey), who was a notoriously effeminate figure in Pope's time.

Sporus also was, back in 2nd century AD, a youth who became a favourite of the Roman Emperor Nero. There was a story that Nero attempted to castrate Sporus to make him more female, which appears in Suetonius' Twelve Caesars.

The wheel refers to the Medieval torture implement, also known as the Catherine Wheel, used by the Inquisition inter alia. A butterfly placed upon a wheel suggests a wholly disproportionate punishment in relation to a trivial crime.

The Epistle to Arbuthnot also has the first use of the expression to "Damn with faint praise", and also shows why Pope decided to write satire. There's also a reference to the Dunciad, a previous satire by Pope.

A very scholarly set of responses here tomcasagranda. You're not, by any chance. a history or English lecturer are you?

Silver Dagger, a few background facts about me.

I am neither a history, nor English lecturer. I hold a first class degree (summa cum laude) in Classics from Reading University. I also hold a Masters in the Classical Tradition, too from Reading University, and am equally passionate about music, as I am about literature and history.

Classics is the study of ancient Latin and Greek history and literature. I majored in Latin (Roman) literature, and am familiar with Pompeii. Hence why I was able to describe "Memento Mori". I also did my dissertation on Roman Satire, and am exceedingly familiar with Alexander Pope, Samuel Johnson, and how they were influenced by Juvenal and Horace.

I am, unfortunately, unemployed, or is it unemployable, as I can talk at length about books, music, culture, but am unable to talk my way into a job. I am intelligent, but nobody wants a brain-box, who is a bit of a cold fish.

So there you go: a well-read, intelligent unemployable redundant graduate, who's excitement still rises at books and art.

In that case I wish you a job for 2013. I like reading your comments here so keep up the good work. Happy New Year.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: tomcasagranda ()
Date: December 31, 2012 12:27

Thank you: I'd love a job in a publishing house, surrounded by books. Hopefully for 2013.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: rob51 ()
Date: January 1, 2013 02:41

Trumped up charges and a complete setup at the time. Lets face it though, it showed the two Stones for what they really were, phoney media made bad guys, and thats about all. Mick crying while being led to Brixton? Keith freaked at having to do 3 months? Big @#$%& deal! If they truely had been hard tough guys, these sentences would have been nothing, and they wouldn't have batted an eye at doing this sort of time. As it was though they both admit quite freely that their little bit of time spent behind bars really rattled them, and I can't help but find that a little bit funny. Mick I can understand. He wasn't no toughy from the start, and if he caved easily one really couldn't have blamed him too much. Keith on the other hand wants to portray himself as the toughest guy on the planet, according to his book, anyway. So why all the hysterics at having to spend a couple of month's behind bars?
Sorry Keith, but you are a hard tough man only in your own mind! And all the stuff you go on about in LIFE happened to a lot of guys except you.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: stonesrule ()
Date: January 1, 2013 02:51

SilverDagger, just a thought -- a lot of good things are happening in Liverpool at the University and elsewhere in the town regarding art and music. Would you consider relocating? Got any former professors at Reading who might have some good contacts in Merseyland? Or generally.

Tom, I know from your posts that you know your stuff. Hope you land a publishing job that you will enjoy. It's such a nutty field these days. Why don't you contact the editorial director at Norton? They still have relatively high ideals. As does FSG. You might want to look over both websites so you are hip to titles and personnel.

Rob 51, don't judge Mick and Keith by who they are today. Then, they were young guys in their early twenties. It was a frightening time for them, their families and their fans.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Posted by: Green Lady ()
Date: January 1, 2013 03:02

And by the way, it was Mick who got 3 months. Keith's sentence was a year. Not that it makes any difference to your other comments.

Re: William Rees-Mogg, author of "Who Breaks A Butterfly On A Wheel?" editorial dies.
Date: January 1, 2013 10:54

Tomcasagrande, what a wonderful contribution, thank you.

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