Hasn't this been put through the most intense scrutiny ever, and still we get people who casually toss out how this album is over-dubbed out the yin-yang?

Yes, vocal overdubs abound. I am aware of those. Not talking about those.

But instrumentally, this album is almost unadulterated.

Perhaps there is one possible dub in Carol. But all the other guitar parts--the greats solos in SFTD, etc., are straight from the shows. No instrumental studio enhancement was necessary.

Please, please, please....correct me if I'm wrong.

MT's rhythm guitar has been overdubbed on Little Queeny.
I wonder why. The original sounds better to me.

Taylor's guitar was replaced by Richards on LQ, probably because Taylor plays straight while Watts had turned the beat around in the intro. I further suspect Carol -Taylor's straight rhythm guitar on boots of this tour is looser with timing than what we hear on YY. Last, live Taylor would play solo runs on the bridge and outro of JJF, something missing on YY, and we know Richards did experiment with adding a solo. Taylor's part on JJF is not overdubbed, but it could be mixed down/edited out.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
Taylor's guitar was replaced by Richards on LQ, probably because Taylor plays straight while Watts had turned the beat around in the intro. I further suspect Carol -Taylor's straight rhythm guitar on boots of this tour is looser with timing than what we hear on YY. Last, live Taylor would play solo runs on the bridge and outro of JJF, something missing on YY, and we know Richards did experiment with adding a solo. Taylor's part on JJF is not overdubbed, but it could be mixed down/edited out.

Mathijs

Taylor played a very cool harmony guitar part on Ya Yas at MSG, which you can hear in Gimme Shelter but is absent from Ya Yas. Have no idea why they took it out. It sounded great.

what about the ukelele overdub, hmmmm? i don't remember any ukelele players on stage....

Taylor's guitar was replaced by Richards on LQ, probably because Taylor plays straight while Watts had turned the beat around in the intro.

A miscalculation on Richard's behalve in that case.

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rocker1

Please, please, please....correct me if I'm wrong.

rocker, have you heard the raw tapes such as The Alternate Ya Yas or Broadway?

The overdubs are really not that hard to find.
You are correct about vocals more predominantly overd'd but many guitars were too. Maybe even Charlie laid down a different drum here or there [probably not].

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Munichhilton

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rocker1

Please, please, please....correct me if I'm wrong.

rocker, have you heard the raw tapes such as The Alternate Ya Yas or Broadway?

The overdubs are really not that hard to find.
You are correct about vocals more predominantly overd'd but many guitars were too. Maybe even Charlie laid down a different drum here or there [probably not].

I have, and I think they tend to confirm that the guitars were basically untouched. I guess by "overdub" I mean guitars that were added later in the studio, clearly tacked-on after the fact, and not mixing down parts that were on the live tapes, etc. I still do not see/hear evidence that "many guitars were [overdubbed] too."

Perhaps I just need to have the specific time markers where these overdubs are pointed out.

Of course, the person who has done the exhaustive research into all the sources is Chrism42, whose excellent website is here:

Sources for Ya'Ya's and overdub summary

Is it time to re-evaluate these conclusions? Maybe I am taking them for granted when I shouldn't be.

With apologies to ChrisM42's amazing work on this, I copy below from his website noted above.




A Summary of Sources and Overdubs on "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!"


Opening words - Sam Cutler: MSG 11/27/69, 11/28/69 1st, and ?

- Opening words - Jagger: "watch it", overdubbed.

1. Jumpin' Jack Flash: Music MSG 11/27/69, vocal overdubbed.

- Spoken Words: MSG 11/27/69, edited.

2. Carol: MSG 11/28/69 1st, Mick Taylor's guitar piece is possibly overdubbed.

- Spoken Words: "Thank You" from MSG 11/27/69.

3. Stray Cat Blues: Music Baltimore 11/26/69, vocals overdubbed. Two musical "markers" were identified. Missing Turnaround Verse #4 ("It's no hangin' mat-tar..."winking smiley. A lessor possibility: 11/28/69 1st. This is noted due to the "Champaign Variation", which is a close approximation to "Ya-Ya's" lyrics, and therefore a possibility in a live '69 performance.

Spoken Words: Possibly MSG 11/28/69 2nd.

4. Love In Vain: Baltimore 11/26/69, no overdubs.

Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 2nd, edited.

5. Midnight Rambler: MSG 11/28/69 2nd, no overdubs.

Spoken Words (Background): - MSG 11/28/69 2nd.

6. Sympathy for the Devil: MSG 11/28/69 1st. Verse #4 is edited out.

Spoken Words: 11/28/69 1st or 2nd possibly before Satisfaction.

7. Live With Me: Music MSG 11/28/69 2nd, vocals overdubbed.

Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st "Aw New York City..." also in the "Gimme Shelter" movie before Jumpin' Jack Flash.

8. Little Queenie: Music MSG 11/28/69 1st, vocals overdubbed.

Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st or 2nd. "Well all rights..." also in the "Gimme Shelter" movie after Jumpin' Jack Flash.

9. Honky Tonk Women: Music MSG 11/27/69, vocals overdubbed. Missing the "New York Verse", which would have been Verse #3 in a "Paris Verse" version of the song. Also missing the added chorus that would have separated the two verses.

Spoken Words: Overdubbed (Note the "electronic noise" that is present). A lessor possibility: 11/28/69 1st or 2nd, or Baltimore 11/26/69.

10. Street Fighting Man: Music MSG 11/28/69 1st, vocals overdubbed. A lessor possibility: Music Baltimore 11/26/69, vocals overdubbed.


MSG '69 Tracks from the "Gimme Shelter" movie:

Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69, 1st show.

1. Jumpin' Jack Flash: MSG 11/28/69, 1st show.

Spoken Words (after JJF): "Thank you, whoo baby..." lines are edited MSG 11/28/69, 1st show. The edited section of "well all rights" are from GYYYO before Honky Tonk Women. The "I think you really, you really dressed up..." section is spliced in from Oakland, November 9, 1969 2nd show.
Spoken Words (before Satisfaction): Opening of MSG 11/28/69 2nd (Third line - "Okay ba-by"winking smiley.

2. Satisfaction: Hybrid/combination of MSG 11/28/69 1st and 11/28/69 2nd. Spliced at Line 10. Chorus #2 and Verse #2 have been edited out of the song.

- Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st or 2nd

3. Love In Vain: Baltimore 11/26/69. Verse #2 is edited out.

Spoken Words: Opening of MSG 11/28/69 2nd (First two lines- "Far out", "Sorry you had to wait"winking smiley

4. Honky Tonk Women: Hybrid/combination of MSG 11/27/69 and MSG 11/28/69 2nd. Spliced at Line 8.

Spoken Words: Two sources - MSG 11/27/69 ("Trouser" lines), and Altamont 12/6/69 ("We're gonna kiss you good-bye" lines).

5. Street Fighting Man: MSG 11/28/69, 2nd show. No overdubs.


Summary of "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!" Recording Information

Six of ten songs are vocal overdubs.
There is one possibility of guitar or instrumental overdubbing.
One song and one instrumental track are from Baltimore 11/26/69.
Two instrumental tracks are from 11/27/69.
Two songs and two instrumental tracks are determined to be 11/28/69 1st, by process of elimination.
One song and one instrumental track are from 11/28/69 2nd.

Regarding MT and JJF,

He seems to have played the solo runs differently (and at different spots) on every bootleg of the 1969 tour that I've ever heard. Maybe his guitar part was turned down on Ya Ya's during the outro, or maybe he just didn't play it that show.

I've said it before, the Baltimore version of JJF has some sweet guitar work at the end. He never played the outro that way again. I'd love to have the chance to buy a soundboard copy of it from google play or Stones Archive.

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StonesTod
what about the ukelele overdub, hmmmm? i don't remember any ukelele players on stage....

The lead ukelele or the rhythm ukelele? I love that ukelele weaving.

Check out the tasty guitars (dare I say "weaving"?) at around 2:40, right before the verse. Not on Ya Yas.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-08-07 07:14 by 71Tele.

I hear you Reagan. I would love to get any complete 69 show in properly mixed multitrack like Archive releases.

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71Tele
Check out the tasty guitars (dare I say "weaving"?) at around 2:40, right before the verse. Not on Ya Yas.

Very cool playing. And yep, it's not on Ya-Yas. But...and not that you suggested it did...it doesn't contribute much to the conversation about instrumental overdubs on Ya-Ya's, as the Ya-Ya's show is from 11/27, and this is the first show (breakfast show) from 11/28.

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rocker1

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71Tele
Check out the tasty guitars (dare I say "weaving"?) at around 2:40, right before the verse. Not on Ya Yas.

Very cool playing. And yep, it's not on Ya-Yas. But...and not that you suggested it did...it doesn't contribute much to the conversation about instrumental overdubs on Ya-Ya's, as the Ya-Ya's show is from 11/27, and this is the first show (breakfast show) from 11/28.

Yes, I wasn't contributing so much as free-associating. Is that allowed?

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VT22
Taylor's guitar was replaced by Richards on LQ, probably because Taylor plays straight while Watts had turned the beat around in the intro.

A miscalculation on Richard's behalve in that case.

Why, if Charlie turned the beat around?

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71Tele
Check out the tasty guitars (dare I say "weaving"?) at around 2:40, right before the verse. Not on Ya Yas.

You know the versions are from different shows -Ya Ya's is from 11/27, GS is from 11/28 1st.

But indeed, on about all versions of JJF from that tour Taylor would play such counter rhythm, and would play some lead at the bridge and ending, which are missing from Ya-Ya's.

Mathijs

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rocker1

Six of ten songs are vocal overdubs.
There is one possibility of guitar or instrumental overdubbing.
One song and one instrumental track are from Baltimore 11/26/69.
Two instrumental tracks are from 11/27/69.
Two songs and two instrumental tracks are determined to be 11/28/69 1st, by process of elimination.
One song and one instrumental track are from 11/28/69 2nd.

There's some mistakes here. LQ has a confirmed guitar overdub: Richards replaced Taylor's rhythm guitar. Carol has a possible guitar overdub of Taylor rhythm, but Taylor's counter fills at the turn-around are still present.

Then, Chris states Stray Cat is from Baltimore, while it is clearly not. It is from MSG, 11/28 1st.

Mathijs

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VT22
Taylor's guitar was replaced by Richards on LQ, probably because Taylor plays straight while Watts had turned the beat around in the intro.

A miscalculation on Richard's behalve in that case.

Well, if you listen at 0.55 on the video version then you hear Richards and Taylor clash with their timing of the rhythm guitar. Probably because they couldn't hear properly, but Taylor is not on the '1' when Richards is. The fact that Charlie had turned the beat around didn't help either. Once you've heared that Taylor's rhyrhm is replaced, it quite sticks out like a sore thumb there's something really awry with the original version.

Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

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VT22
Taylor's guitar was replaced by Richards on LQ, probably because Taylor plays straight while Watts had turned the beat around in the intro.

A miscalculation on Richard's behalve in that case.

Why, if Charlie turned the beat around?

Sorry, I meant Charlie of course. What's done is done.

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Mathijs


Well, if you listen at 0.55 on the video version then you hear Richards and Taylor clash with their timing of the rhythm guitar. Probably because they couldn't hear properly, but Taylor is not on the '1' when Richards is. The fact that Charlie had turned the beat around didn't help either. Once you've heared that Taylor's rhyrhm is replaced, it quite sticks out like a sore thumb there's something really awry with the original version.

Mathijs

We are talking about this version, I presume? I haven't listened to gyyyo for a while.

If not correct me and post the version you're referring too, but there's nothing wrong with the guitars here.

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rocker1
Hasn't this been put through the most intense scrutiny ever, and still we get people who casually toss out how this album is over-dubbed out the yin-yang?

Yes, vocal overdubs abound. I am aware of those. Not talking about those.

But instrumentally, this album is almost unadulterated.

Perhaps there is one possible dub in Carol. But all the other guitar parts--the greats solos in SFTD, etc., are straight from the shows. No instrumental studio enhancement was necessary.

Please, please, please....correct me if I'm wrong.

There appear to be quite a few overdubs on this record, but so what? The Stones wanted a perfect album so changes were made at the end. I see no problem with using a little mascara to cover up a few flubs that occurred in front of thousands of screaming fans.

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VT22

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Mathijs


Well, if you listen at 0.55 on the video version then you hear Richards and Taylor clash with their timing of the rhythm guitar. Probably because they couldn't hear properly, but Taylor is not on the '1' when Richards is. The fact that Charlie had turned the beat around didn't help either. Once you've heared that Taylor's rhyrhm is replaced, it quite sticks out like a sore thumb there's something really awry with the original version.

Mathijs

We are talking about this version, I presume? I haven't listened to gyyyo for a while.

If not correct me and post the version you're referring too, but there's nothing wrong with the guitars here.

yes there is. Richards seems to attempt a slow paced rhtyhm, playing 4/4ths, and playing around with that by leaving out the 1 or 4 at times. Taylor playes a faster rhythm, basically 8ths, and ads a little run on the 1st (C/Dflat/E) on the low E string. Combined with Watts whom emphesizes the 2 and 3 of 1-2-3-1-2-3, Richards and Taylor clash at times. It is not so much really wrong, but it sounds a bit messy and chaotic. To really tighten to track I can understand why Richards replaced Taylor's rhythm track. There's actually more tracks where Taylor's straight forward rhythm could be a bit more tight, like on live versions of Starfvcker. In my opinion, Taylor was much of a rhythm player, but I think any guitarist trying to add a rhythm guitar to the Richards/Watts tandem in those days would have clashed.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

In my opinion, Taylor was much of a rhythm player, but I think any guitarist trying to add a rhythm guitar to the Richards/Watts tandem in those days would have clashed.

Mathijs

With the exception of Jimi Hendrix of course.

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VT22

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Mathijs

In my opinion, Taylor was much of a rhythm player, but I think any guitarist trying to add a rhythm guitar to the Richards/Watts tandem in those days would have clashed.

Mathijs

With the exception of Jimi Hendrix of course.

He would be the first to clash

But you've got a point. Many of the guitar players I find interesting, have a unique sense of rhythm. By unique, I mean something that is far off from normal, trained or schooled. Hendrix is like that, too, but he would have been too spaced out rhythm-wise for Charlie, I guess

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VT22

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Mathijs

In my opinion, Taylor was much of a rhythm player, but I think any guitarist trying to add a rhythm guitar to the Richards/Watts tandem in those days would have clashed.

Mathijs

With the exception of Jimi Hendrix of course.

Haha, that was actually a typo -I meant 'wasn't much of a rhythm player'. I really do not like Taylor as a rhythm guitarist.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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VT22

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Mathijs

In my opinion, Taylor was much of a rhythm player, but I think any guitarist trying to add a rhythm guitar to the Richards/Watts tandem in those days would have clashed.

Mathijs

With the exception of Jimi Hendrix of course.

Haha, that was actually a typo -I meant 'wasn't much of a rhythm player'. I really do not like Taylor as a rhythm guitarist.

Mathijs

So you've said...many times. I think he was great.

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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VT22

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Mathijs

In my opinion, Taylor was much of a rhythm player, but I think any guitarist trying to add a rhythm guitar to the Richards/Watts tandem in those days would have clashed.

Mathijs

With the exception of Jimi Hendrix of course.

Haha, that was actually a typo -I meant 'wasn't much of a rhythm player'. I really do not like Taylor as a rhythm guitarist.

Mathijs

So you've said...many times. I think he was great.

how about one more time, for funzies...

mathijs: what's your opinion on mick taylor as a rhythm guitarist?

I can't speak for mathijs but MT's fault was always a tendency to overplay.
This I think is evident even in his rhythm playing. There ain't enough spaces in it !

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Spud
I can't speak for mathijs but MT's fault was always a tendency to overplay.
This I think is evident even in his rhythm playing. There ain't enough spaces in it !

no

it sounds just fine; no 'rhythm' overplaying here

great, actually

its funny sometimes MT is criticized for overplaying (ie noodling around on lead too much i guess) which to me sounds like people think he should just be playing straight rhythm, there, instead

and then he's criticized for that, too?

no way, i don't buy that; he's great

i mean Taylor's soloing with Keef doing the rhythm, live, to me WAS the Stones live guitar sound. each to their own. and I like the 69 tour a lot too, just not as much as 1972 (or the 1973 European tour). also, I think Wood wrecked the band's live sound after the 78 tour. i'll leave it at that.

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pinkfloydthebarber

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Spud
I can't speak for mathijs but MT's fault was always a tendency to overplay.
This I think is evident even in his rhythm playing. There ain't enough spaces in it !

no

it sounds just fine; no 'rhythm' overplaying here

great, actually

its funny sometimes MT is criticized for overplaying (ie noodling around on lead too much i guess) which to me sounds like people think he should just be playing straight rhythm, there, instead

and then he's criticized for that, too?

no way, i don't buy that; he's great

i mean Taylor's soloing with Keef doing the rhythm, live, to me WAS the Stones live guitar sound. each to their own. and I like the 69 tour a lot too, just not as much as 1972 (or the 1973 European tour). also, I think Wood wrecked the band's live sound after the 78 tour. i'll leave it at that.

Don't you understand yet, pinkfloyd? Anytime Mick Taylor did anything to spice up a song, it was "overplaying" or "noodling", and ten years of Ron Wood plastered out of his mind onstage and contributing basically nothing of interest on guitar was pure brilliance. Get with the program.