EDIT: Please see page 2 for detailed analysis on the BPM found on the setlists with what the band actually plays on stage. There is no match and often times are way off what the "official" BPM is listed.



The "click track" argument has been around for years but I never bought into it. I think there might be a lack of information either on my part for not knowing how it exactly works in this band or maybe there's a lack of info on other people's part for not knowing how it works and putting the blame on something they just don't have a grasp on either.

Firstly, there is no visible evidence of anything to accommodate a click track: Charlie does not wear an ear-piece monitor to follow along to a track, there are no special speakers surrounding him or any other band member that have the click track going. There are no mentronomes visible on stage, no special lights that would guide a musician. No extra apparatuses anywhere near his drum kit nor Chuck's. There is no audio evidence of a track. Never have I accidentally heard the track come through any recording. All the soundboards I've heard--never could hear it. Even in the in-ear monitor feed recording we got from one of the Tokyo shows from the ABB tour--no click track to be heard. So where is it exactly?

Popular answer: Chuck is the only one who can hear it and he counts off the group. If it is Chuck who can hear it...is it really fair to say that the entire band uses it when really it's just ONE MEMBER? How is that any different when a guitar player counts it off on his own? A simple "One, two, a one-two-three" from Chuck at a beginning of a song does not explain how Charlie and the rest of the band limp through songs as lazily as they do.

If Chuck is the one who hears the click track and he's the one that counts it off to lead the band at the start of the song, how does this process work when Keith starts the song off on his own: "Midnight Rambler" "Satisfaction" "JJF" "Brown Sugar" "IORR" "Tumblin Dice" "Gimme Shelter" "Shattered" "Start Me Up" How does the band get back on track with Chuck--the supposed group "time keeper"--after Keith's already started it off? On the setlists, there are BPM markings for every song (including the ones I mention above) except Keith's solo songs which are only labeled as "KR". Many people assume that all the songs are click tracked except for Keith's. If that's the case, shouldn't Keith's songs sound WAY better than any other song in the set? Why do they sound as bland as the other tunes?

Another popular notion is that they need a click track for "Sympathy For The Devil." Thye do not need the backing track. The backing track contains the samba and African beat that has so famously started off the original studio track and that is exactly why they've had to use it in concert--they want to duplicate the iconic beats that start off the song. It isn't a crutch but merely a piece of jewelry...an artistic choice they made, not a neccessity.

I am not denying that there was a shift in sound in the Vegas years--there most certainly was. But this "click track" thing I think has just been the most misunderstood and misdiagnosed reason for it all. No one's ever provided a logical explanation as to how it's used on stage and no amount of assistance through Chuck can explain the radical change in the music. People are just labeling it "Oh it's because they use a click track" yet no one is actually working out the logistics of how it's "really" used.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-14 22:05 by Justin.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-13 02:58 by lettingitbleed.

Interesting post, Justin.

I also don't think that any of the band, outside of perhaps CL, have anything to do with a possible "click track." I mean, jeez, if they are, then that's one wacky out of sync click track. (Smile...just sayin'...)

But...have you seen the printed setlists from the last few tours that specify the "beats per minute" for each song? I'm sure you probably have...I can dig one up if forced. I've always wondered of what possible use that info is to anyone in the Stones, outside of perhaps CL, who, as we now know, was VERY instrumental in determining fundamental things such as the setlist itself. Would that "beats per minute" info somehow correlate to a click track? I don't know. Just for consideration...

My own thoughts about the BPM markings on the set lists is that they are a vague, general suggestion for the song's tempo for Chuck but mainly I believe used mainly for the lighting. No one is following them to the exact beat--but they are just general estimations.

Note: none of the principle members in the band are using those partciular printed setlists. It's Chuck who may have a copy and definitely the tech guys/crew who have them. The copies I snatched myself were from security and the lighting and mixing desks. The band uses the plexiglass as their setlists...last time I checked they don't have the BPM markings on that. You'd think they'd be written on the plexi glass for Charlie to see if he in fact used them, don't you think?







Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-13 03:38 by Justin.

I think sometimes a band might use a "click track" on stage to kick a song off, or to get things started all at once and at the right tempo. For not all members to have it would invite disaster, i.e., the band playing faster than the track. Maybe the Stones use it occasionally, but it looks like that is not a common thing if they do at all. Not a big deal for a band to keep to a specific tempo for the sake of choreography and lights and other effects, as mentioned above.

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Justin
My own thoughts about the BPM markings on the set lists is that they are a vague, general suggestion for the song's tempo for Chuck but mainly I believe used mainly for the lighting. No one is following them to the exact beat--but they are just general estimations.

Note: none of the principle members in the band are using those partciular printed setlists. It's Chuck who may have a copy and definitely the tech guys/crew who have them. The copies I snatched myself were from security and the lighting and mixing desks. The band uses the plexiglass as their setlists...last time I checked they don't have the BPM markings on that. You'd think they'd be written on the plexi glass for Charlie to see if he in fact used them, don't you think?

Yep, I agree. That's why I think the BPM were useless to the rest of the band, and why I also think that any click track is useless to them. Never considered how a BPM estimation (which got down to such precise levels that seemed absurd to me considering the Stones basically improvy nature) would be of more use to the lighting crew than the players, but that makes sense.

Although...Keith has referenced in interviews circa 1997 or so that Flip the Switch clocked in at more BPM than Rip This Joint, which I think is false, but he said that. Which tells me that somehow Keith was conscious of this whole BMP stuff on some level. Remember that quote? Pretty sure I'm right about that...Why would Keith give a flip about the BMP of each song?

One can also notice that same songs have different tempos to a certain exctent on various shows within the same tour, and surely from one tour to another. But as said in the Tokyo Dome thread, the backing sampletracks on ex. Sympathy has to be audible on stage and especially for Charlie and Chuck. If not it would be utter chaos. No, they don't need the sampletrack to play the song as you say, but as they've chosen to do it, they have to be able to follow it.

I also remember from a documentary on making Bridges to Babylon where you clearly can hear the clicktrack beeing used in the studio. If I remeber correctly, it was on Already Over Me. So there's no doubt they've been using clicktracks for studio recordings, I would guess from Steel Wheels and on, but that's another thing than on stage.

[www.reverbnation.com]

I think it was Stern, a German magazine, who noticed during the Steel Wheels tour that every song started and finished at almost the same second and that you couldn't hear any difference between (the same) songs. You got the impression that they more or less played play-back. I still to this day don't think Stern was entirely wrong about that.

Wasn't it a part of the Voodoo Lounge tour they used prerecorded drums in addition to the percussion thing on Sympathy. clearly another drumsound than the rest of the songs, and a very unlike Charlie bassdrumpattern.

As far as playback goes, that would have been easily detected as every musician would have had to study every single note, every single drumbeat, every single guitarlick, every single song phrasing and so on. And played and sang it exactly the same way every time. The songs beeing the same length from show to show is not very peculiar if they count in the songs at a predetermined BPM. Especially not peculiar on Sympathy with percussion sample track as already mentioned several times.

[www.reverbnation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-13 04:37 by audun-eg.

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Stoneage
I think it was Stern, a German magazine, who noticed during the Steel Wheels tour that every song started and finished at almost the same second and that you couldn't hear any difference between (the same) songs. You got the impression that they more or less played play-back. I still to this day don't think Stern was entirely wrong about that.

It was the SPIEGEL,
it was 1995
and it was about the same "stumble" in Rock And A Hard Place (during the breaks near the end) during several occasions.


47 shows...and counting...Hyde Park - July 6 & 13

I've seen photos of the setlist on top of Chuck's keyboard and it includes specific BPM tempos for each song. From what I've heard from various band member interviews is that Chuck sets that tempo and either hears a click track or uses blinking lights on the keyboard to count off the song but that's just to get them started. There's no click track that other band members hear. As for songs that Keith counts out, I don't know. Maybe Chuck signals the beat to him somehow but I'm sure Keith doesn't go for that sort of thing.

Yes, it was the SPIEGEL and it was forced to print a statement by the band denying the use of pre recorded tracks:
[www.spiegel.de]

Thanks for the correction. I still think they (Der Spiegel) were right though. At least to a large part. I guess the magazine's owners didn't want to go through any legal procedures - so they withdraw their statements.

Maybe Charlie has blinking lights on SFTD? Didnt he leave the stage during that song in Helsinki or Oslo 2007?

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Redhotcarpet
Maybe Charlie has blinking lights on SFTD? Didnt he leave the stage during that song in Helsinki or Oslo 2007?

Certainly not in Oslo.

[www.reverbnation.com]

Sure they use click-track. Indeed it is Chuck whom has the click-track, and he uses it to count of the band on most songs. Throughout the 90's he started to count off more and more tracks, even the ones that are started by Keith, and they also made differences to the arrangements -tracks that had Richards starting where suddenly started off by Chcuk. A track like Let's Spend had that change. There's just a few tracks where it's really up to Keith what the tempo is: his solo songs, Brown Sugar, IORR. And these songs have been trainwrecks due to too low or high speed on the last tours...

There's two main reasons for a count-off:

1) Lighting and effects. These need to go (quite) in synch with the music, at least at start-off. A good lighting engineer can vary the speed of the programmed lighting to keep in synch with the music, but the start-off BPM must be quite accurate.
2) Since '90 it has been decided that certain tracks sound best at a certain BPM. There's quite some reports about especially Jagger, how he hated it when Richards played Tumbling Dice too slow in '75, or many songs too fast in '81 and '82. He doesn't want to be suprised anymore, and he wants to have control on the pace of a concert. Therefore he has put as much as possible control over tempi in the hands of Chuck, and not Richards.

I don't believe the Stones actually used click-track through-out a song, even though that is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if Watts has a click-track on his monitor during the SFTD intro, and click-track cabe added to any monitor you want without it appearing on the main PA or recording, or you can add it to the side-fills, which is the stage PA for the band, not heard by the audience. But I don't think they do that.

Mathijs

I'm thinking that Mathis & StonesDan are coming closest to the truth.

I also think that the term "click track" is causing most of the confusion in this discussion. In the minds of most musicians & public alike, "click track" is implies a track that runs continuously throughout a song. In my mind, there's little or no chance that the Stones are using this on stage. Possible yes, probable no. That being said, I have little doubt that either an audible or visual "metronome" is being used by Chuck & possibly others at the beginning of songs to keep the tempos as consistent as possible from night to night.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Ronnie talks about it in According To The Rolling Stones. They've been using a click track in recording studios for years.

The setlist always have EXACT informations about bpm ("133" for Bitch 2006).
That only makes sense with a click-track.


47 shows...and counting...Hyde Park - July 6 & 13

Quote
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
Ronnie talks about it in According To The Rolling Stones. They've been using a click track in recording studios for years.

I believe it is common practice for many bands to use a click track in the studio. It becomes useful especially when splicing together different takes of a song and they all seamlessly fit together, with each take of the song at the same speed.

I have no argument with them using it in the studio. My hope is to get to the bottom of the accusation that they use it on stage---which is the reason why "Vegas era" has apparently sucked so badly. There is no doubt there was a shift in sound starting in 1989---but it wasn't because of click tracks.

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TooTough
The setlist always have EXACT informations about bpm ("133" for Bitch 2006).
That only makes sense with a click-track.

That is not exactly damning evidence that they most definitely use a click track on every song.

Only Chuck has that information on stage and he only counts off a small portion of the songs for the group. Keith starts off the songs all by himself without any guidance on tmpos thoughout most of the show.

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audun-eg

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Redhotcarpet
Maybe Charlie has blinking lights on SFTD? Didnt he leave the stage during that song in Helsinki or Oslo 2007?

Certainly not in Oslo.

He left the stage in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.
I was there.
Keith left the stage too.

Thank God for Blondie and the pre-programmaed fake drums.
(sigh)

____________________________________________________________________

New Track - Indoor Sunshine
[www.thepowergoats.com]

Simple, I think, no click tracks!

Maybe Chuck references a metronome before certain songs and there's obvious sample/ programming play back during Sympathy For The Devil, but at most, that's about it.



* His Majesty, Prince Jones smiled as he moved among the crowd *



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-13 23:05 by His Majesty.

Well, it was said in another book that they have a click to start the songs live and then once they're in, the click is stopped.

So there you go - they do use a click live but only for the intros of the songs.

Justin haven't you ever seen a printed setlist of a "modern" show? You have the title of each song played, the key it is played in, and... the BPM of the song!

I honestly don't know if these setlist are printed after the show to keep record of each performance but if they're printed before a gig how can the band know they'll play a song a that pace? The answer : a click-track?

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dcba
Justin haven't you ever seen a printed setlist of a "modern" show? You have the title of each song played, the key it is played in, and... the BPM of the song!

I honestly don't know if these setlist are printed after the show to keep record of each performance but if they're printed before a gig how can the band know they'll play a song a that pace? The answer : a click-track?

Yeah. I mentioned the printed setlists several times in my posts above. I have a copy of my own that I got from a show on the last tour. I'm well aware the BPM's are listed.

I also noted above that the only indidviduals who have this PARTICULAR printed setlist with the BMP notated are 1) Chuck and 2) the tech/crew guys. The setlists written on the plexi for both Charlie and Keith to read--have no such information noted.

A metronome was obviously used before the gig even as early as the rehearsals to measure the BPM of each song, for reference purposes as a rough guide for Chuck but mainly for the lighting crew as agreed above. What are your thoughts on that?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-14 01:57 by Justin.

I'm sure that one of the able (or bored) among us can analyze the live songs from the 2000's. If the tempo at the start of each song and the end of each song is
*exactly* the same, then we're onto something. I know Charlie has been called the
'human metronome', but he's more human than metronome, ie, not perfect. If the
tempo is even slightly different at the end of a song, then there is no click track
throughout.

That is exactly what I will be doing, Carlossi plus a bit more. The click track stuff has been brought up endlessly on this board, yet no one is really stopping to think about the logistics of how it's used. It's an easy go-to answer that I think has reached its expiration date. We'll see...

Just so we're all clear: which of the stances are people taking?



1. The band uses a click track/metronome throughout the enitre duration of each song in their set.

2. The band uses a click track/metronome just for the beginning of each song and then it is shut off.

3. Chuck Leavall is the only member who has access to a click track/metronome and counts the band in on each song.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-14 02:06 by Justin.