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Naturalust

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whitem8
It is interesting when folks comment on China and their status in the world. The media hypes it as the next world power, the dominant actor on the political stage. Etc..all the cliches that make good sound bites. But how many folks have been to China? I live in Asia, and have been to China numerous times, and work with a lot of Chinese. China is very much like the US in the early 1900s. A massive industrial nation that has very little regard for the worker, personal property rights, and intellectual freedom. And massive problems with unrestrained development at the cost of the environment. Most of China now suffers from massive pollution on a scale that is terrifying. Living and visiting Beijing, Shanghai, and other areas like Hong Kong, is when you get a sense of the massive scale of their problems. Byzantine bureaucracy, corruption, and very little creative thinking. And a box like paradigm for thinking where initiative and risk taking is not natural, and following a rigid system. And this is the next world power? I don't buy it. Yes, they are massively developing and have become a supplier of cheap material goods, but there is still a long way for China to go to get close to matching the West in innovation and creative thinking. Coupled with a massively centralized and intrenched political system that strives for conformity and narrowly defines development. It will be interesting to see how things develop in China, and it is going to take China a lot longer than the media would have you believe for it to become a bonafide world power that could challenge the West.

What you say is true and insightful Whitem8. But since when has creative thinking and innovation had much to do with world power brokers? It's all about the amount of very dangerous toys and the ability to change world financial markets as far as I can tell.

The environmental problems you speak of are especially disturbing. If that is the case, it's past time we stopped spending our money to support that regime of unaccountability. It's the only solution. Otherwise we are just as big a part of the problem. peace

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whitem8

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Naturalust

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whitem8
It is interesting when folks comment on China and their status in the world. The media hypes it as the next world power, the dominant actor on the political stage. Etc..all the cliches that make good sound bites. But how many folks have been to China? I live in Asia, and have been to China numerous times, and work with a lot of Chinese. China is very much like the US in the early 1900s. A massive industrial nation that has very little regard for the worker, personal property rights, and intellectual freedom. And massive problems with unrestrained development at the cost of the environment. Most of China now suffers from massive pollution on a scale that is terrifying. Living and visiting Beijing, Shanghai, and other areas like Hong Kong, is when you get a sense of the massive scale of their problems. Byzantine bureaucracy, corruption, and very little creative thinking. And a box like paradigm for thinking where initiative and risk taking is not natural, and following a rigid system. And this is the next world power? I don't buy it. Yes, they are massively developing and have become a supplier of cheap material goods, but there is still a long way for China to go to get close to matching the West in innovation and creative thinking. Coupled with a massively centralized and intrenched political system that strives for conformity and narrowly defines development. It will be interesting to see how things develop in China, and it is going to take China a lot longer than the media would have you believe for it to become a bonafide world power that could challenge the West.

What you say is true and insightful Whitem8. But since when has creative thinking and innovation had much to do with world power brokers? It's all about the amount of very dangerous toys and the ability to change world financial markets as far as I can tell.

The environmental problems you speak of are especially disturbing. If that is the case, it's past time we stopped spending our money to support that regime of unaccountability. It's the only solution. Otherwise we are just as big a part of the problem. peace

Well creativity and thinking out of the box often creates new and revolutionary weapons. The Manhattan Project and Fermi case in point. I think a lot of China's so called military expansion is a Paper Tiger used, much like the Cold War, to excuse huge military budgets in the US.

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His Majesty

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The Sicilian

Only to the losers. It's a celebration of democracy.

Every one is a loser in war, except maybe the surviving rich people.

Celebration of hypocrisy more like.

How about those slaves that were forced to fight in place of their so called masters?

The native's didn't see much of that democracy. Moved from their land, villages destroyed etc.

Great stuff, totally worth celebrating!

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The Sicilian

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His Majesty

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The Sicilian

Only to the losers. It's a celebration of democracy.

Every one is a loser in war, except maybe the surviving rich people.

Celebration of hypocrisy more like.

How about those slaves that were forced to fight in place of their so called masters?

The native's didn't see much of that democracy. Moved from their land, villages destroyed etc.

Great stuff, totally worth celebrating!

Europeans settled this country. Europeans brought slaves here and to the Carribean. Europeans held all the debt on the colonies and set up the systems of agriculture with slavery.

But, it was Americans that declared Independence and established a democracy. That is our original idea.

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His Majesty

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The Sicilian

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His Majesty

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The Sicilian

Only to the losers. It's a celebration of democracy.

Every one is a loser in war, except maybe the surviving rich people.

Celebration of hypocrisy more like.

How about those slaves that were forced to fight in place of their so called masters?

The native's didn't see much of that democracy. Moved from their land, villages destroyed etc.

Great stuff, totally worth celebrating!

Europeans settled this country. Europeans brought slaves here and to the Carribean. Europeans held all the debt on the colonies and set up the systems of agriculture with slavery.

But, it was Americans that declared Independence and established a democracy. That is our original idea.

Yah kept up the horrible European ways of shafting the natives and the use and abuse of african (descent) slaves.

Again, independence served the few.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

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Stoneage
The alternative would have been that the American colonies have stayed under British sovereignty. Who would have prefered that?

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His Majesty

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The Sicilian

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His Majesty

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The Sicilian

Only to the losers. It's a celebration of democracy.

Every one is a loser in war, except maybe the surviving rich people.

Celebration of hypocrisy more like.

How about those slaves that were forced to fight in place of their so called masters?

The native's didn't see much of that democracy. Moved from their land, villages destroyed etc.

Great stuff, totally worth celebrating!

Europeans settled this country. Europeans brought slaves here and to the Carribean. Europeans held all the debt on the colonies and set up the systems of agriculture with slavery.

But, it was Americans that declared Independence and established a democracy. That is our original idea.

Yah kept up the horrible European ways of shafting the natives and the use and abuse of african (descent) slaves.

Again, independence served the few.

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Stoneage
What is this? The World Cup in stupid argumentation? What we (Americans, or not - I'm Swedish) are celebrating the Fourth of July is "The Unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America".As shown on page one. How can anyone possibly be against that? The alternative would have been that the American colonies have stayed under British sovereignty. Who would have prefered that?

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The Sicilian

The Europeans were the ones who decimated the Indians with disease and killing. Starting with Spain, then England, France, and the Dutch.

Ever stop and wonder why Mexico speaks spanish? Ask Cortez. Or why Haiti and Jamaica is made up of mostly black people?

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WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
Funny how current Europeans are mad about Europeans that founded the United States in the name of slagging the U.S. now. Continue to condemn your own. Current U.S. citizens have NOTHING to do with that.

Get over it. Deal with the fact that you are in Europe and not in the U.S. or that your family didn't leave for the United States - or Canada for that matter.

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His Majesty

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WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
Funny how current Europeans are mad about Europeans that founded the United States in the name of slagging the U.S. now. Continue to condemn your own. Current U.S. citizens have NOTHING to do with that.

Get over it. Deal with the fact that you are in Europe and not in the U.S. or that your family didn't leave for the United States - or Canada for that matter.

Lol.

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Edith Grove
Why are people today still blaming each other for shit that happened hundreds of years ago ?

Why is it so difficult to learn from history, move ahead, and make the world a better place ?

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SwayStones

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Edith Grove
Why are people today still blaming each other for shit that happened hundreds of years ago ?

Why is it so difficult to learn from history, move ahead, and make the world a better place ?

Edith, may be because many people dont learn from the past. Or may be because there are still too many people who dislike black people in America.
It is easy to talk about what is according to you " a hundred uears ago " event. when one is not a little kid of those slaves.

It is like the people who say " stop mentionning the shoah, it was a long time ago "
Easy to say when none of their family has burnt in an oven.
I zm clever enough not to blame the German people and and the gra d parents of mykind German friends but still there are a lot of neo nazis in Europe. ..So you see people dont learn.

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Stoneage
I think Europeans who are denying U.S. citizens the right to celebrate their own national holiday (4th of July) are not just being impolite but are also making a fool of themselves.
And I'm European myself. This is my last post in this thread.

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Stoneage
I think Europeans who are denying U.S. citizens the right to celebrate their own national holiday (4th of July) are not just being impolite but are also making a fool of themselves.
And I'm European myself. This is my last post in this thread.

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The Sicilian
Columnist George Will on the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson:

Why should I care about Jefferson?
A late-20th-century America is concerned about its identity, and it’s come to be aware of the fact that we are a creedal nation—and he gave us our creed. He made it accessible. A lot of nations emerge from the mists of history and their basic identity is tribal, it’s rooted in groups. Ours is rooted in a great ascent, an ascent to certain propositions. We are, as Lincoln said—Lincoln being the greatest student of Jefferson of them all—“a nation dedicated to a proposition.“ Jefferson wrote the proposition.

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WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

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Stoneage
I think Europeans who are denying U.S. citizens the right to celebrate their own national holiday (4th of July) are not just being impolite but are also making a fool of themselves.
And I'm European myself. This is my last post in this thread.

Well, realistically, no one here has denied anyone of anything. Not sure how you get that.

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latebloomer

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The Sicilian
Columnist George Will on the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson:

Why should I care about Jefferson?
A late-20th-century America is concerned about its identity, and it’s come to be aware of the fact that we are a creedal nation—and he gave us our creed. He made it accessible. A lot of nations emerge from the mists of history and their basic identity is tribal, it’s rooted in groups. Ours is rooted in a great ascent, an ascent to certain propositions. We are, as Lincoln said—Lincoln being the greatest student of Jefferson of them all—“a nation dedicated to a proposition.“ Jefferson wrote the proposition.

Every once in a while, George Will gets it right.

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His Majesty

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latebloomer

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The Sicilian
Columnist George Will on the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson:

Why should I care about Jefferson?
A late-20th-century America is concerned about its identity, and it’s come to be aware of the fact that we are a creedal nation—and he gave us our creed. He made it accessible. A lot of nations emerge from the mists of history and their basic identity is tribal, it’s rooted in groups. Ours is rooted in a great ascent, an ascent to certain propositions. We are, as Lincoln said—Lincoln being the greatest student of Jefferson of them all—“a nation dedicated to a proposition.“ Jefferson wrote the proposition.

Every once in a while, George Will gets it right.

The proposition that white is right?

Deep rooted racism was at the core of the founders of USA and at the core of many a USA president after.