Tell Me :  Talk
Talk about your favorite band. 

Previous page Next page First page IORR home

For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.

Goto Page: 123Next
Current Page: 1 of 3
which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: April 23, 2012 03:47

- The Last Time was simply a re-working of The Staples Singers' This May Be The Last Time
- Bill Wyman wrote the riff to Jumping Jack Flash
- Ry Cooder wrote the intro/riff to Honky Tonk Women
- Midnight Ramber was largely nicked from an old bluesman (I forget who, but I remember reading about the allegation)
- She's So Cold was ripped off of a Willie Nile track
- Marianne Faithful wrote Sister Morphine
- It's Only Rock N' Roll was mainly written by Ron Wood
- "Classic Keith riff" Brown Sugar was all written by Mick - Keith had nothing to do with that song
- Brian Jones created the melody to Ruby Tuesday (otherwise credited as a Keith song) (Keith undispudedly wrote the lyrics, which are really very articulate and poetic I must say)
- Mick Taylor wrote a bunch of stuff
- Bobby Keys contributed to Happy in such a way that he deserved credit

How do you feel about all this stuff? How much does it even matter?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-23 22:23 by Send It To me.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Date: April 23, 2012 03:52

Quote
Send It To me
- The Last Time was simply a re-working of The Staples Singers' This May Be The Last Time
- Bill Wyman wrote the riff to Jumping Jack Flash
- Ry Cooder wrote the intro/riff to Honky Tonk Women
- Midnight Ramber was largely nicked from an old bluesman (I forget who, but I remember reading about the allegation)
- She's So Cold was ripped off of a Willie Nile track
- It's Only Rock N' Roll was mainly written by Ron Wood
- "Classic Keith riff" Brown Sugar was all written by Mick - Keith had nothing to do with that song
- Brian Jones created the melody to Ruby Tuesday (otherwise credited as a Keith song) (Keith undispudedly wrote the lyrics, which are really very articulate and poetic I must say)

How do you feel about all this stuff? How much does it even matter?

I don't hear the similarity to the Willie Nile track other than the title. The rest of it is obviously true though, although I've never heard/read about Midnight Rambler being nicked but then what blues song doesn't sound like some other blues song? It's so funny that Keith gives Mick shit about writing "imitation riffs" like I Go Wild when Mick is the one that came up with Brown Sugar, one of their most instantly identifiable songs and riffs if not THE most identifiable. Only Start Me Up comes close to having that and that was a toss away.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Riley103 ()
Date: April 23, 2012 04:14

Quote
Send It To me
- The Last Time was simply a re-working of The Staples Singers' This May Be The Last Time
- Bill Wyman wrote the riff to Jumping Jack Flash
- Ry Cooder wrote the intro/riff to Honky Tonk Women
- Midnight Ramber was largely nicked from an old bluesman (I forget who, but I remember reading about the allegation)
- She's So Cold was ripped off of a Willie Nile track
- It's Only Rock N' Roll was mainly written by Ron Wood
- "Classic Keith riff" Brown Sugar was all written by Mick - Keith had nothing to do with that song
- Brian Jones created the melody to Ruby Tuesday (otherwise credited as a Keith song) (Keith undispudedly wrote the lyrics, which are really very articulate and poetic I must say)

How do you feel about all this stuff? How much does it even matter?
I don't understand question

Watch Lockout Online Free

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: April 23, 2012 04:23

It's funny how Keith always denigrates the creativity of the JJF riff by saying "it's just Satisfaction backwards" Uh...no Keith, actually its not. eye rolling smiley

He's asked about JJF specifically here at the 11:00 mark, and immediately starts talking about writing riffs generally, and Satisfaction, of course




Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 23, 2012 12:44

Quote
Send It To me
- The Last Time was simply a re-working of The Staples Singers' This May Be The Last Time
- Bill Wyman wrote the riff to Jumping Jack Flash
- Ry Cooder wrote the intro/riff to Honky Tonk Women
- Midnight Ramber was largely nicked from an old bluesman (I forget who, but I remember reading about the allegation)
- She's So Cold was ripped off of a Willie Nile track
- It's Only Rock N' Roll was mainly written by Ron Wood
- "Classic Keith riff" Brown Sugar was all written by Mick - Keith had nothing to do with that song
- Brian Jones created the melody to Ruby Tuesday (otherwise credited as a Keith song) (Keith undispudedly wrote the lyrics, which are really very articulate and poetic I must say)

How do you feel about all this stuff? How much does it even matter?

Hmm.. many of them classical topics of some heated debates here along teh years... and most of them still open issues...

How do I feel? Does it even matter? Well, of course the 'truth' interests me, but that wouldn't change how much I love the output, no matter how it was done. It is just "theoretical interest" for myself to see how the dinner was cooked...

But some guesses:

The Last Time was simply a re-working of The Staples Singers' This May Be The Last Time

Hmm.. no it was, they nicked basically just the chorus and the key line... they created by themselves the verse melodies and lyrics plus Brian Jones added the magnificient riff into it, which actually made the song.

Bill Wyman wrote the riff to Jumping Jack Flash

That what he says and I don't think he would actually lie about it. And he claims to have a document where Keith admits the case. The story of the riff "Satisfaction" played backwards is technical bullshit.

Ry Cooder wrote the intro/riff to Honky Tonk Women

Hmm, I'm not sure has Cooder actually claimed that to be the case. Ry obviously "inspired" Keith, or the latter borrowed ideas from he former quite harshly... Ry's ideas found an ideal templete in that song, and that was an act of genious...

Midnight Ramber was largely nicked from an old bluesman (I forget who, but I remember reading about the allegation)

This is news to me. Never heard about that.

She's So Cold was ripped off of a Willie Nile track

Well, this was a discovery I only heard a few days ago... Actually the resemblance is a bit too obvious in the repeated "She's So Cold,, She's So Cold.. She's Cold.." chorus... can that be a co-incidence? Pretty difficult to believe to such miracles.. But the term "ripping off" is still a strong word to use here. Probably Jagger heard the song (drunk?), and it stuck unconsciously to his mind, and then popped up in the record studio, when Keith and the guys were rehearsing an occasional riff that turned t be song's musical backing track...eye rolling smiley

It's Only Rock N' Roll was mainly written by Ron Wood

I guess musically (plus the key phrase) the claim holds true. But for sure the lyrics are pure Jagger mainly - Woodie would never come with such clever and insightful lines the song is full of, pretty much based on Jagger's personal status and history as a rock star.

Classic Keith riff" Brown Sugar was all written by Mick - Keith had nothing to do with that song

Well, Mick wrote the riff as the song but I suppose Keith really worked out the possibilities the riff had. It's Keith's feel and groove that makes the opening riff so terrific. But in the ideal world of justice, all the credits would go totally to Mick Jagger.

Brian Jones created the melody to Ruby Tuesday (otherwise credited as a Keith song)

I suppose Marianne Faithfull's testimony is all there is to claim Brian's role in creating the melody of "Ruby Tuesday", and that is not the most reliable source (to say it mildly)... But despite that I think Brian had a role in creating the tune, either proposing some ideas to Keith, or helping finishing Keith's ideas.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-23 12:51 by Doxa.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Title5Take1 ()
Date: April 23, 2012 18:35

Bobby Keys in his recent book said he was so much a part of the birth of HAPPY that's he's arguably a co-composer. And he even jokes with Keith about it. And Keith just jokes back. If true, the rich got richer and the guy who could have used that royalty didn't get it (Bobby Keys in the book had to return to living with is mother at one point he was so broke).

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: duke richardson ()
Date: April 23, 2012 18:46

this question is too much like something on a test for a class.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: April 23, 2012 18:54

Quote
Title5Take1
Bobby Keys in his recent book said he was so much a part of the birth of HAPPY that's he's arguably a co-composer. And he even jokes with Keith about it. And Keith just jokes back. If true, the rich got richer and the guy who could have used that royalty didn't get it (Bobby Keys in the book had to return to living with is mother at one point he was so broke).

I guess you could call it a bittersweet symphony. cool smiley




Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: April 23, 2012 19:12

Aside: I met Vincent Nguini, a great guitarist who has worked w/ Paul Simon for over 20 years. He told me a story about this Paul Simon composition, The Cool Cool River, saying that the music was invented in the studio on a day when Paul wasn't even there. Ironically, like bittersweet symphony, the lyrics are about bitterness.

(see also: Paul Simon/Los Lobos controversy [blog.wfmu.org]

see also: Paul Simon/Martin Carthy controvery
[www.torvund.net])







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-23 19:13 by Send It To me.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Des ()
Date: April 23, 2012 19:20

Regarding the questions relating to other artisits work. Go to an Arlo Guthrie concert. He will explain the art of taking others songs and reworking them to your style. If there is anything to your questions the point can not be that songs are original from begining to end. As Arlo says writing songs is like fishing, just don't fish down stream of Dylan, he is the poster boy for this.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: April 23, 2012 19:29

Quote
Des
Regarding the questions relating to other artisits work. Go to an Arlo Guthrie concert. He will explain the art of taking others songs and reworking them to your style. If there is anything to your questions the point can not be that songs are original from begining to end. As Arlo says writing songs is like fishing, just don't fish down stream of Dylan, he is the poster boy for this.

when does inspiration and legitimate borrowing become larceny? You have to put yourself in the shoes of the initiating artist and ask yourself "would I be flattered or would I be pissed?"

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: April 23, 2012 21:12

- The Last Time was simply a re-working of The Staples Singers' This May Be The Last Time

No. They did take the chorus, but build a new song around it based on Brian's riff.

- Bill Wyman wrote the riff to Jumping Jack Flash

The only testimony there is is from Bill. All other statements point towards Keith. Most importantly, the very first take we have of JJF is Keith bashing out a riff with only slight resemblemce to the final riff: so either Richards wrote it, or Bill wrote a very early embyonic version and Keith developed it further.

- Ry Cooder wrote the intro/riff to Honky Tonk Women

No. But Memo From Turner, SM and Downtown Suzie feature each and every lick Keith does on HTW.

- Midnight Ramber was largely nicked from an old bluesman (I forget who, but I remember reading about the allegation)

The 'don't do that' bit has a swing pattern not uncommon with 30's blues music, like Hot Tamala's. That's as far as I can tell. New to me.

- She's So Cold was ripped off of a Willie Nile track

No.

- It's Only Rock N' Roll was mainly written by Ron Wood

Musically yes, the 'I know, it's only RaR' line yes, all the rest is Jagger.

- "Classic Keith riff" Brown Sugar was all written by Mick - Keith had nothing to do with that song

Correct. The entire chord sequence was written by Jagger. Richards did ad his sense of rhythm though.

- Brian Jones created the melody to Ruby Tuesday (otherwise credited as a Keith song) (Keith undispudedly wrote the lyrics, which are really very articulate and poetic I must say)

No, I really don't believe that at all. For somebody who basically hasn't written anything in his life to suddenly come up with RT is just too far fetched for me. And Keith has stated he wrote it.

Mathijs

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: April 23, 2012 21:20

Quote
Mathijs
- The Last Time was simply a re-working of The Staples Singers' This May Be The Last Time

No. They did take the chorus, but build a new song around it based on Brian's riff.

- Bill Wyman wrote the riff to Jumping Jack Flash

The only testimony there is is from Bill. All other statements point towards Keith. Most importantly, the very first take we have of JJF is Keith bashing out a riff with only slight resemblemce to the final riff: so either Richards wrote it, or Bill wrote a very early embyonic version and Keith developed it further.

- Ry Cooder wrote the intro/riff to Honky Tonk Women

No. But Memo From Turner, SM and Downtown Suzie feature each and every lick Keith does on HTW.

- Midnight Ramber was largely nicked from an old bluesman (I forget who, but I remember reading about the allegation)

The 'don't do that' bit has a swing pattern not uncommon with 30's blues music, like Hot Tamala's. That's as far as I can tell. New to me.

- She's So Cold was ripped off of a Willie Nile track

No.

- It's Only Rock N' Roll was mainly written by Ron Wood

Musically yes, the 'I know, it's only RaR' line yes, all the rest is Jagger.

- "Classic Keith riff" Brown Sugar was all written by Mick - Keith had nothing to do with that song

Correct. The entire chord sequence was written by Jagger. Richards did ad his sense of rhythm though.

- Brian Jones created the melody to Ruby Tuesday (otherwise credited as a Keith song) (Keith undispudedly wrote the lyrics, which are really very articulate and poetic I must say)

No, I really don't believe that at all. For somebody who basically hasn't written anything in his life to suddenly come up with RT is just too far fetched for me. And Keith has stated he wrote it.

Mathijs

Perfect

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Green Lady ()
Date: April 23, 2012 21:36

Most I either don't know or agree with Doxa & Mathijs.

Ruby Tuesday: I go with the story that Brian's essential contribution is the little recorder "riff": that came before anything else and the rest was built around it.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: April 23, 2012 21:39

Quote
Doxa

Ry Cooder wrote the intro/riff to Honky Tonk Women

Hmm, I'm not sure has Cooder actually claimed that to be the case. Ry obviously "inspired" Keith, or the latter borrowed ideas from he former quite harshly... Ry's ideas found an ideal templete in that song, and that was an act of genious...

Midnight Ramber was largely nicked from an old bluesman (I forget who, but I remember reading about the allegation)

This is news to me. Never heard about that.

- Doxa

Keith: "I took Ry Cooder for everything I could get"

The HTW main intro riff, the simplistic repeated two note riff is Taylors ticket to the Stones.
The licks or whatever you call it, what Keith plays between the chords, are Ry Cooder note for note. Ry Cooders impact on Keiths style in 1969, the new Keith guitar sound and style first heard on Let it bleed, has been underrated. The Monkey Man riffing is an example of that style. Live with me another. Rambler a third.

Midnight Rambler is very very similar to two songs featured on Jamming with Edwards (with Ry Cooder, Jagger) but the real reason Cooder once said some bitter things about the Glimmer Twins probably is what he played on the tapes Keith made of Ry Cooder in the studio. I do think that whole episode has been misunderstood. Its not just about HTW.

The way Keith plays HTW in 1975/1976 makes it his own signature song. That slow groove is Keith playing guitar like only Keith played the guitar.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: April 23, 2012 21:39

Note that I never mentioned M. Taylor's claim on the music for Moonlight Mile, which he did play on and enhance, because Keith created "Japanese Thing" which, IMO, is enough to satisfy authoriship, but its the kind of thing rational minds can disagree on.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: April 23, 2012 21:46

Should be added to the list - Marianne Faithful's claim that she wrote Sister Morphine in its entirety by herself.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: April 23, 2012 21:47

The Last Time riff is Brian, the words in the refrain is Staples. JJF is Wyman and everytime Keith says a riff came in a dream/was in the air/fell from a tree/is just Satisfaction backwards/is nothing special/was written by Ian Stewart/was played by I know Keith sure didnt come up with the riff.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: April 23, 2012 21:54

I dont think Bill would make up a story about JJF. He says he, Brian and Charlie jammed, he started playing the riff, Keith and Mick came in and went nuts about it and they wrote a song around that riff.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: April 23, 2012 21:59

Quote
Redhotcarpet
The HTW main intro riff, the simplistic repeated two note riff is Taylors ticket to the Stones.

Er, no, that's Keith. The track was already recorded completely when Taylor did his overdub, which is the pentatonic country bends in the verses.

Mathijs

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: April 23, 2012 22:04

Quote
Redhotcarpet
I dont think Bill would make up a story about JJF. He says he, Brian and Charlie jammed, he started playing the riff, Keith and Mick came in and went nuts about it and they wrote a song around that riff.

But the version of JJF from the rehearsals on February 21, 1968 has the riff in a very, very early stage, almost not recognizable. So either Wyman wrote something that was completely reworked by Keith, to such extent that it can hardly be credited to Wyman, or Keith wrote the riff.

Mathijs

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Koen ()
Date: April 23, 2012 22:05

Quote
Mathijs
No, I really don't believe that at all. For somebody who basically hasn't written anything in his life

Except for the Last Time riff?

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: April 23, 2012 22:06

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Redhotcarpet
The HTW main intro riff, the simplistic repeated two note riff is Taylors ticket to the Stones.

Er, no, that's Keith. The track was already recorded completely when Taylor did his overdub, which is the pentatonic country bends in the verses.

Mathijs

Not according to Keith who says Taylor.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: April 23, 2012 22:08

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Redhotcarpet
I dont think Bill would make up a story about JJF. He says he, Brian and Charlie jammed, he started playing the riff, Keith and Mick came in and went nuts about it and they wrote a song around that riff.

But the version of JJF from the rehearsals on February 21, 1968 has the riff in a very, very early stage, almost not recognizable. So either Wyman wrote something that was completely reworked by Keith, to such extent that it can hardly be credited to Wyman, or Keith wrote the riff.

Mathijs

I m not talking about a recorded early version. I know what you mean, they used Bills riff for the song. The song came first, then Bills riff.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Koen ()
Date: April 23, 2012 22:11

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Redhotcarpet
I dont think Bill would make up a story about JJF. He says he, Brian and Charlie jammed, he started playing the riff, Keith and Mick came in and went nuts about it and they wrote a song around that riff.

But the version of JJF from the rehearsals on February 21, 1968 has the riff in a very, very early stage, almost not recognizable. So either Wyman wrote something that was completely reworked by Keith, to such extent that it can hardly be credited to Wyman, or Keith wrote the riff.

Mathijs

I always interpreted Bill's claim to be the intro that is on the studio version, not the intro that is played live.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Send It To me ()
Date: April 23, 2012 22:20

Quote
Koen
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Redhotcarpet
I dont think Bill would make up a story about JJF. He says he, Brian and Charlie jammed, he started playing the riff, Keith and Mick came in and went nuts about it and they wrote a song around that riff.

But the version of JJF from the rehearsals on February 21, 1968 has the riff in a very, very early stage, almost not recognizable. So either Wyman wrote something that was completely reworked by Keith, to such extent that it can hardly be credited to Wyman, or Keith wrote the riff.

Mathijs

that's a legitimate interpretation of his claims, as I remember them

I always interpreted Bill's claim to be the intro that is on the studio version, not the intro that is played live.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: April 23, 2012 23:14

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Redhotcarpet
The HTW main intro riff, the simplistic repeated two note riff is Taylors ticket to the Stones.

Er, no, that's Keith. The track was already recorded completely when Taylor did his overdub, which is the pentatonic country bends in the verses.

Mathijs

Not according to Keith who says Taylor.

I definitely added something to Honky Tonk Women, but it was more or less complete by the time I arrived and did my overdubs. They had already laid down the backing track, but it was very rough and incomplete. I added some guitars to it, but I didn't play the riffs that start it - that's Keith playing. I played the country kind of influence on the rock licks between the verses.

- Mick Taylor, 1979

There's many more statements that Taylor only added the countrfills. And if you listen to the track, you can hear several guitars but only one Taylor track: the country fills.

Mathijs

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: April 23, 2012 23:18

Quote
Koen
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Redhotcarpet
I dont think Bill would make up a story about JJF. He says he, Brian and Charlie jammed, he started playing the riff, Keith and Mick came in and went nuts about it and they wrote a song around that riff.

But the version of JJF from the rehearsals on February 21, 1968 has the riff in a very, very early stage, almost not recognizable. So either Wyman wrote something that was completely reworked by Keith, to such extent that it can hardly be credited to Wyman, or Keith wrote the riff.

Mathijs

I always interpreted Bill's claim to be the intro that is on the studio version, not the intro that is played live.

But the intro basically is the chorus, so then Bill would state he wrote the chorus, and not the riff. He stated he wrote the riff:

We got to the studio early once and... in fact I think it was a rehearsal studio, I don't think it was a recording studio. And there was just myself, Brian and Charlie - the Stones NEVER arrive at the same time, you know - and Mick and Keith hadn't come. And I was just messing about and I just sat down at the piano and started doing this riff, da-daw, da-da-daw, da-da-daw... and then Brian played a bit of guitar and Charlie was doing a rhythm. We were just messing with it for 20 minutes, just filling in time, and Mick and Keith came in and we stopped and they said, Hey, that sounded really good, carry on, what is it?
- Oh, that was just something we were messing with.
- That sounds good.
And then the next day all I can really remember... we recorded it and Mick wrote great lyrics to it and it turned out to be a really good single.
- Bill Wyman, 1982



Mathijs

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Date: April 23, 2012 23:26

If there were finally a gig or gigs with Bill on stage, it would be fair that Mick made a polite and elegant remark at Bill's introduction moment by mentioning him as the riff maker of JJF. Better late than never.

Re: which of these are true about Jagger/Richards compositions?
Posted by: Koen ()
Date: April 23, 2012 23:26

Thanks for the quote, case closed thumbs up

Goto Page: 123Next
Current Page: 1 of 3


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Online Users

Guests: 222
Record Number of Users: 47 on October 30, 2014 15:28
Record Number of Guests: 282 on October 29, 2014 22:40

Previous page Next page First page IORR home