Rock 'n Roll is significantly about image and Brian also brought that to the Stones. He was the ultra-cool one in the mid-60s when that was a huge thing. He ought never be under-rated in my opinion.

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hbwriter
That was said to me this week by a friend - who then went on to support his case that while Brian showed great intuition in formulating the band, that his strengths were limited beyond that and that his greatest legacy was creating an environment that allowed Mick and Keith to thrive.

I vehemently disagreed - we debated - (I argued that while Brian's personality may not have been strong enough to survive the cyclonic fury of the Jagger/Richards storm, that musically, his instincts and exquisite musical flair/talents gave the Stones their original soul)

anyway - anyone care to debate?

Tell your friend that while he has his head up his ass he should have a look around.

I think that without Brian the Stones would have been buried by the Beatles. The "coloring" that he added put them in another league regarding those other British blues bands coming out at the time.

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leteyer
I think that without Brian the Stones would have been buried by the Beatles. The "coloring" that he added put them in another league regarding those other British blues bands coming out at the time.

That's an astute observation. Many of the Rolling Stones singles from the golden pop period of the mid-60s owe their exalted status to Brian's contributions. Everybody was picking up new instruments as fast as possible in a very competitive environment. George picked up a sitar and came up with a folky, nice sounding Norwegian Wood. Brian picked one up and came up with a dark, exotic Paint It Black. Brian was essential to that period. Unfortunately everything turned back to guitars by 1968 and he was flummoxed.

depends how you look at it, i guess. brian's 'colouring' was a prototype of the times and of the sounds of the time. the basic root of the stones sound, for me anyway, was always keith and charlie, even if brian 'founded' the band. and keith wrote (most of) the stuff. and probably arranged it. brian's job was 'to add colour' to keith's sketches. you could argue all day long about whether those colourings ot texturings are over rated or not, but they certainly were imaginative and tasteful. you could open a whole other debate on the question 'what do you think was most important, brian's legacy on 'colouring' or his legacy with keith with 'weaving'? the weaving came first.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-12 21:12 by pinkfloydthebarber.

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leteyer
I think that without Brian the Stones would have been buried by the Beatles. The "coloring" that he added put them in another league regarding those other British blues bands coming out at the time.

Good observation. That also helped put them in competition with the Beatles and Beach Boys, sort of, which led to Jaggers failed attempt with Satanic that also finished that competition which in turn led them to Jimmy Miller and Dave Mason and their own satanic version of Dear Mr Fantasy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-12 21:37 by Redhotcarpet.

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24FPS
That's an astute observation. Many of the Rolling Stones singles from the golden pop period of the mid-60s owe their exalted status to Brian's contributions. Everybody was picking up new instruments as fast as possible in a very competitive environment. George picked up a sitar and came up with a folky, nice sounding Norwegian Wood. Brian picked one up and came up with a dark, exotic Paint It Black. Brian was essential to that period. Unfortunately everything turned back to guitars by 1968 and he was flummoxed.

Finally someone who can put 1 and 1 together and see the context! Cheers!

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pinkfloydthebarber
depends how you look at it, i guess. brian's 'couring' was a prototype of the times and of the sounds of the time. the basic root of the stones sound, for me anyway, was always keith and charlie, even if brian 'founded' the band. and keith wrote (most of) the stuff. and probably arranged it. brian's job was 'to add colour' to keith's sketches. you could argue all day long about whether those colourings ot texturings are over rated or not, but they certainly were imaginative and tasteful. you could open a whole other debate on the question 'what do you think was most important, brian's legacy on 'colouring' or his legacy with keith with 'weaving'? the weaving came first.

I don't think Keith arranged many songs on his own since the albums say "Arranged by the Rolling Stones". However in 68 the arrangement bit seems to have been taken over by the glimmers and Jimmy Miller.

Nobody gave Brian the "job" to add colour. If that was the case we would have known. Being the multiinstrumentalist of the band was a role he took himself mainly because he had lost his other role in the band and because he got fed up with the guitar. Brian liked sounds as his history with instrumens show. He knew what he was doing, made it work and lucky for him weird sounds were in.

i don't think anybody 'gave' brian the role of colour, but lets face it; he wasn't a writer or arranger. so colouring is what he fell into, at least by 66. he had drifted off and away from guitar into these exotic intruments and sounds. a band is the sum of its parts; brian added what the others couldn't. but he got there because he wanted to present himself as the stones' leader, initially, but basically used his "leadership" status to take extra gig money off the top. once oldham took over the hustling of gigs brian began to be marginalized by his inability to compete with Mick and Keith as songwriters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-12 22:25 by pinkfloydthebarber.

Context is always lost when speaking about Brian. There hadn't been any world wide famous rock and roll groups before the Beatles and the Stones. They set the template. Harrison got hip and saw he had to write if he was going to be rich and powerful like the others. For whatever reasons, Brian couldn't write, or didn't have the personality to force his way in. Who knows what could have been? Harrison's first efforts weren't that great but he learned and developed his own idiosyncratic style. If time had allowed it, Brian might have made a solo album and showed what his style would be absent Mick and Keith.

Brian was a bright fellow with a lot of interests. Guitar was just another instrument to him. He didn't seem able to repeat himself. And in time he was reduced to being a sideman on Mick & Keith compositions, a position I'm sure he loathed and passively drug his feet on. Picking up an instrument, creating art with it, and laying it down for another instrument, seemed all he would do. He was probably a little shocked when it all came back to guitars and that's all they needed. He was backed into a corner and although it appears he tried to go in that direction again, his heart wasn't in it.

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pinkfloydthebarber
i don't think anybody 'gave' brian the role of colour, but lets face it; he wasn't a writer or arranger. so colouring is what he fell into, at least by 66. he had drifted off and away from guitar into these exotic intruments and sounds. a band is the sum of its parts; brian added what the others couldn't. but he got there because he wanted to present himself as the stones' leader, initially, but basically used his "leadership" status to take extra gig money off the top. once oldham took over the hustling of gigs brian began to be marginalized by his inability to compete with Mick and Keith as songwriters.

Brian was probably too much of a musician to write commerical tunes like the glimmers. But to say he wasn't a writer or arranger is absolute bullocks.
He wrote the score for a movie and produced an album in his short time. The guy was a very capable musician and his coloring shows much of it.

The extra fiver that Brian took as a leader has shadowed the fact that he worked as the band's manager before Oldham. Brian worked his arse off to promote the Stones in the beginning, he was their spokesman and the one the others sent to do the dirty work. Oldham and Jones never shared ideas about the band in the first place but the glimmers did so Brian was out. It hadn't much to do with his inability to compete with song writing since Brian wasn't into what the new trio wanted for the band - ff you want coffee and I bring you tea you would most likely say "No thanks".



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-12 23:52 by tonterapi.

***But to say he wasn't a writer or arranger is absolute bullocks.
He wrote the score for a movie and produced an album in his short time.***

-- i mean with the stones. he wrote a movie score for some movie that had anita pallenberg in it, yeah, but nothing with the stones. least not that i've ever heard. never released any solo record, either.

Brian Was an Integral part of the forming and gelling of one of the world's greatest Rock and Roll band. The greatness that came after without him still owes him a credit, because without him, it would have been different.

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pinkfloydthebarber
***But to say he wasn't a writer or arranger is absolute bullocks.
He wrote the score for a movie and produced an album in his short time.***

-- i mean with the stones. he wrote a movie score for some movie that had anita pallenberg in it, yeah, but nothing with the stones. least not that i've ever heard. never released any solo record, either.

Didn't he write the Rice Krispies-jingle?

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pinkfloydthebarber
-- i mean with the stones. he wrote a movie score for some movie that had anita pallenberg in it, yeah, but nothing with the stones. least not that i've ever heard. never released any solo record, either.

We are many who feel that Brian's soundtrack for A Degree of Murder deserve an official and proper release but sadly this was never done at the time and seems impossible to do today for various reasons. That would have been a solo album to be proud of. Let's just say that if Brian had been a beatle - that score would have just as available as Wonderwall and The Family Way.

It's also impossible to say if Brian actually wrote anything for the Stones. Bill has said that both him and Brian showed up with songs but that they were pretty much ignored by Oldham, Mick and Keith. Maybe they sucked - who knows? Maybe they weren't what Oldham, Mick and Keith wanted for the band? It was their show and their decision if they wanted to share the song writing space (meaning money) with the others.

At least Keith's description of Brian's song writing "complicated with too many chords" doesn't match the music on Brian's soundtrack. Oldham and Mick has said that Brian couldn't write songs at all. Keith has said that Brian most likely never finished a song but that he had various bits and pieces that he wrote. Being the insecure guy he was I find that easy to believe but I'm also pretty convinced that more than one of those "bits and pieces" has made into songs that Mick and Keith finished. I know that saying this on IORR is a like throwing molotov cocktail but; I believe there were a more going on behind the Jagger/Richards credit that we will never know.

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DandelionPowderman
Didn't he write the Rice Krispies-jingle?

...and he was also involved in the Nanker/Phelge songs.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-13 10:40 by tonterapi.

He may have added 'color'and played weird instruments but without the songs, you got nothing.

George playing sitar on NW means nothing without Lennon and McCartney's song.

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KeefintheNight82
He may have added 'color'and played weird instruments but without the songs, you got nothing.

George playing sitar on NW means nothing without Lennon and McCartney's song.

You can argue that without the sitar noone would care much for NW today. George sitar makes it into something else than Lennon wanting to be Dylan.

It's true that without the songs there wouldn't have been nothing for starters. But if you want the songs to stand out from the competition it takes more as there are lots of good song writers. In the 60's a "weird instrument" could give you that since sounds were in. Brian understood that and so did George and Paul.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-13 15:21 by tonterapi.

---We are many who feel that Brian's soundtrack for A Degree of Murder deserve an official and proper release but sadly this was never done at the time and seems impossible to do today for various reasons.-----

that would be cool. what reasons? legal?

It's also impossible to say if Brian actually wrote anything for the Stones. Bill has said that both him and Brian showed up with songs but that they were pretty much ignored by Oldham, Mick and Keith. Maybe they sucked - who knows? Maybe they weren't what Oldham, Mick and Keith wanted for the band? It was their show and their decision if they wanted to share the song writing space (meaning money) with the others.

At least Keith's description of Brian's song writing "complicated with too many chords" doesn't match the music on Brian's soundtrack. Oldham and Mick has said that Brian couldn't write songs at all. Keith has said that Brian most likely never finished a song but that he had various bits and pieces that he wrote. Being the insecure guy he was I find that easy to believe but I'm also pretty convinced that more than one of those "bits and pieces" has made into songs that Mick and Keith finished. I know that saying this on IORR is a like throwing molotov cocktail but; I believe there were a more going on behind the Jagger/Richards credit that we will never know.

- i read some where too that even Ian Stewart said Brian couldn't write - does that mean at all? or just to the others liking? who knows

He wrote his parts for the songs he played on.

Also, this is from Mick from 1967 Palladium/Courtfield Road footage...

Who is the author of your songs?

No one of us in particular, and all of us at the same time. We usually sign Jagger and Richards but Brian is the one that knows music best and, in short, one cannot be distinguished by the other. We are all necessary.



* His Majesty, Prince Jones smiled as he moved among the crowd *

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pinkfloydthebarber
that would be cool. what reasons? legal?

For starters the tapes are gone. Noone knows where they are. Then there is this legal jungle regarding rights and and who's going to get paid. It's said that there have been attempts by fans to sort it out and have it released but no luck so far.

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pinkfloydthebarber
- i read some where too that even Ian Stewart said Brian couldn't write - does that mean at all? or just to the others liking? who knows

Since we know he wrote a score for a soundtrack I think it's safe to say that he could write music. But writing music for a film and writing a pop song are two different things.

Hey. At least this is interesting regarding the song writing.

[www.iorr.org]

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Reporter: Who is the author of your songs?

Mick: No one of us in particular, and all of us at the same time. We usually sign Jagger and Richards but Brian is the one that knows music best and, in short, one cannot be distinguished by the other. We are all necessary.

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KeefintheNight82
He may have added 'color'and played weird instruments but without the songs, you got nothing.

George playing sitar on NW means nothing without Lennon and McCartney's song.

But Jagger didnt write songs like NW in 1965. Brian meant more to the Stones than George to the Beatles in the early days.

Brian added a riff to the Last Time. Same goes for Little Red Rooster.

I wish you'd left this thread in the bucket of the past where it belonged.

* His Majesty, Prince Jones smiled as he moved among the crowd *

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pinkfloydthebarber

It's also impossible to say if Brian actually wrote anything for the Stones. Bill has said that both him and Brian showed up with songs but that they were pretty much ignored by Oldham, Mick and Keith. Maybe they sucked - who knows?

Jumpin Jack Flash didnt suck because Mick and Keith liked Bills riff.