Tell Me :
Talk
Is that actually why KR played bass on Sympathy or just a theory of yours? I always believed it was because he wanted to lead the recording of the rhythm track for that song with the bass as opposed to guitar.
Peace,
Mr DJA
I guess that basically sums it up. Making a record is different than playing in a concert. In the studio there were people who were able to do the bass part if needed and if Bill was not around. Bill himself has stated that he refused to live according to Keith's "junkie time", which probably caused some missed sessions. Then there were those experimental times during the 60's when Keith, as mentioned, seemingly wanted to play some bass parts, even though Bill was present. Bill later bitterly commented something to the effect that when Keith did the bass they ended up being mixed much higher than his bass contributions...
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-01-29 22:00 by Doxa.
Then why does he play on Live With Me and Street Fighting Man when there is already rhythm guitar in those tracks? I have no theory on that actually. But if he weren't interested in the instrument, then why would he pick it up and learn to play it?
It seems, and yes I'm theorizing here, that Keith was becoming more interested in the arrangements of the songs he was writing and maybe felt he could better convey the bass aspect of it himself in a few instances.
Bill complained in Stone Alone how there were numerous other instances--not noted in the musicians' credits on albums--how after Bill left the studio Keith would then erase the bass parts recorded by Bill and dub over them with his own parts, adding that he felt the only reason he was even in the band was because they needed someone to play bass on tour.
Bill had other hobbies too......photographing, metal detactors, tabletennis and
(Quoting duke richardson
He was randier than all of them put together, apparently..
In a nutshell why I think Wyman was important. He always played stuff live more interesting than the studio, imo.
People have varied opinions on him. All that matters to me is that I really dig his playing and he influenced me to play the bass. He will always remain a key part of the Stones to me, and one of my heroes too!
You are correct. Bill would show up for a session at a reasonable hour but Keith would not arrive until 11Pm. This is when Keith's work day began. But Bill would be gone by then.
Or on other occasions when the magic struck Bill just was not there because it was a jam or noodling around. Can you really see Bill Wyman hanging around the degeneracy at Nellcote? And being available to play bass anytime at a moments notice? lol lol lol
perhaps his undergarments were a trifle snug?
If there were a few strange birds around I'm sure Bill would have found the motivation to hang...besides wasn't this the period where he was starting to smoke hash every day...Bill's degenerate period? I think he was more put off by Keith's on again/off again personal interaction.
But you're right, Nellcote seemed to be a social scene as well as a session location and Bill never seemed to fit into the social clique of the Stones.
peace
Exactly...and here are the number of times Jagger's lead vocal wasn't 'required':
Connection
In Another Land
Salt of the Earth (intro)
You Got The Silver
Happy
Coming Down Again
Memory Motel (~1/4 of the song)
Before They Make Me Run
All About You
Little T & A
Wanna Hold You
Sleep Tonight
Can't Be Seen
The Worst
Thru and Thru
Thief In The Night
How Can I Stop
Losing My Touch
This Place Is Empty
Infamy
Soul Survivor
We Had It All
I'm sure I missed a couple...anyone?
EDIT
OF COURSE, the best part of Gimme Shelter!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-01-30 01:09 by treaclefingers.
Ruby Tuesday: Bass and bowed double bass
Sympathy for the Devil: maracas and backing vocals
All Down The Line: He's on the early version released on Amazon during the Exile re-issue
Some Girls: Synthesizer
Emotional Rescue: Synthesizer
Pretty Beat Up: Electric piano
On the others, he wasn't around or his bass parts were "demo" type so someone recorded over it during the mixes.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-01-30 04:30 by georgelicks.
Yes. He did on A BIGGER BANG.
"Mick made a mistake with the credits on two of the cuts. He listed Mick Taylor or somebody as playing bass on Loving Cup and one other track. It was really me."
- Bill Wyman, 1981
quote borrowed from timeisonourside site
peace
wasn't trying to disparage bill's contributions; was just struck by the number of HUGE hits he did not play his primary instrument on.
also, in my opinion, the number of stones tracks that are better live than in studio can be counted on one hand: midnight rambler, and er, one or two others. i think they are a monster in the studio and their recorded studio legacy is WHY they can tour forever on old material.
that's not to deny that they are not great performers, of course--they certainly are. i just think their best work has been in the studio. perhaps a minority opinion, though?
All really great tracks ... but the list of tunes that Bill did not play bass on is staggering in its quality and popularity.
I agree with you on this one. The songwriting and studio work is their best stuff. Especially during Jimmy Miller's time with the band. Although the concerts are great overall, there are plenty of tunes they just haven't come close to the magic of the recorded versions. peace
Talk about your favorite band.
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Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: January 29, 2015 21:03
Have always wondered about something:
Is this an unusual amount of "A" grade songs for an essential member of the band NOT to have played on?
Ruby Tuesday
Let's Spend the Night Together
Sympathy for the Devil
Street Fighting Man
Live With Me
Happy
Rip This Joint
All Down the Line
Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker)
Silver Train
If You Can't Rock Me
It's Only Rock'n'Roll
Crazy Mama
Some Girls
Shattered
Emotional Rescue
Hang Fire
Pretty Beat Up
Tie You Up
Maybe no big deal, to have missed that many over a LONG career. And perhaps Richards and Watts have missed some, too ... but surely not even close to as many as Bill.
Not a knock on Bill; love him; just was struck by this.
Is this an unusual amount of "A" grade songs for an essential member of the band NOT to have played on?
Ruby Tuesday
Let's Spend the Night Together
Sympathy for the Devil
Street Fighting Man
Live With Me
Happy
Rip This Joint
All Down the Line
Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker)
Silver Train
If You Can't Rock Me
It's Only Rock'n'Roll
Crazy Mama
Some Girls
Shattered
Emotional Rescue
Hang Fire
Pretty Beat Up
Tie You Up
Maybe no big deal, to have missed that many over a LONG career. And perhaps Richards and Watts have missed some, too ... but surely not even close to as many as Bill.
Not a knock on Bill; love him; just was struck by this.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: January 29, 2015 21:31
Yeah but he made 'em work live plenty of times. I imagine since he knew he'd never get writing credits on any of them, that it took some of the incentive to contribute his talents to the studio recordings. peace
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 29, 2015 21:34
That list could be longer...
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: January 29, 2015 21:41
I don't make that much of it considering:
One (if not both) of the composers/arrangers/producers of the songs could adequately play his instrument. (Does Jagger play bass?)
At any given time, 2-3 other band members could adequately play his instrument. (Again, does Jagger play bass?)
Once the band started using multi-track overdubs to produce tracks and ESPECIALLY once they started recording "on Keith time", Bill's presence was not always required to record the bass part for a song. I'd like to think that, for the most part, Bill was desired and preferred, but he really wasn't required or necessary.
Wow... Although I've kind of had those thoughts for years it was strange typing them.
Peace,
Mr DJA
One (if not both) of the composers/arrangers/producers of the songs could adequately play his instrument. (Does Jagger play bass?)
At any given time, 2-3 other band members could adequately play his instrument. (Again, does Jagger play bass?)
Once the band started using multi-track overdubs to produce tracks and ESPECIALLY once they started recording "on Keith time", Bill's presence was not always required to record the bass part for a song. I'd like to think that, for the most part, Bill was desired and preferred, but he really wasn't required or necessary.
Wow... Although I've kind of had those thoughts for years it was strange typing them.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: January 29, 2015 21:41
He was there for Sympathy, as we see in One Plus One, but got relegated to percussion as Keith was becoming very interested in developing his bass playing around that time.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 29, 2015 21:43
He played on RT. Keith only played the bow.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: January 29, 2015 21:58
Quote
stonehearted
He was there for Sympathy, as we see in One Plus One, but got relegated to percussion as Keith was becoming very interested in developing his bass playing around that time.
Is that actually why KR played bass on Sympathy or just a theory of yours? I always believed it was because he wanted to lead the recording of the rhythm track for that song with the bass as opposed to guitar.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: January 29, 2015 21:59
Quote
mr_dja
Once the band started using multi-track overdubs to produce tracks and ESPECIALLY once they started recording "on Keith time", Bill's presence was not always required to record the bass part for a song. I'd like to think that, for the most part, Bill was desired and preferred, but he really wasn't required or necessary.
I guess that basically sums it up. Making a record is different than playing in a concert. In the studio there were people who were able to do the bass part if needed and if Bill was not around. Bill himself has stated that he refused to live according to Keith's "junkie time", which probably caused some missed sessions. Then there were those experimental times during the 60's when Keith, as mentioned, seemingly wanted to play some bass parts, even though Bill was present. Bill later bitterly commented something to the effect that when Keith did the bass they ended up being mixed much higher than his bass contributions...
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-01-29 22:00 by Doxa.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: January 29, 2015 22:00
well to his credit he always tried to play for the song..
he knew along with the rest if someone else got a better line or feel for a song and didn't make a fuss if that happened..
didn't he..?
he knew along with the rest if someone else got a better line or feel for a song and didn't make a fuss if that happened..
didn't he..?
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
lem motlow
()
Date: January 29, 2015 22:14
it says what the stones themselves have been saying for years-the rolling stones are a live band.the tours and the live shows are what the stones are all about.
keith once said that he didnt think the stones had "ever been properly captured on record"- nowdays they tour and dont even bother to record.
what i'm saying is that bill was there when it really counted and thats all that matters.
keith once said that he didnt think the stones had "ever been properly captured on record"- nowdays they tour and dont even bother to record.
what i'm saying is that bill was there when it really counted and thats all that matters.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
ronkeith72
()
Date: January 29, 2015 22:23
not that big of a deal...look at Exile...they had whoever was around at the time play on the tracks. Bill played most of 'em live so its of no consequence...
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
vertigojoe
()
Date: January 29, 2015 22:27
Woah.
I have to say the under appreciation of Wyman for me is perhaps the biggest own goal in the entire career of the RS.
He should have been cherished, loved whatever but all he ever got was the piss taken. On an epic scale. Pure British class snobbery of the time from the middle class Jagger and Jones, and to a lesser extent, Richards.
So he left in 93 and what we have had since then is "Plastic dry f$%k" or whatever Gram's comment on The Eagles was..
I have to say the under appreciation of Wyman for me is perhaps the biggest own goal in the entire career of the RS.
He should have been cherished, loved whatever but all he ever got was the piss taken. On an epic scale. Pure British class snobbery of the time from the middle class Jagger and Jones, and to a lesser extent, Richards.
So he left in 93 and what we have had since then is "Plastic dry f$%k" or whatever Gram's comment on The Eagles was..
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: January 29, 2015 22:32
I wonder how he managed to not have more offspring, he was randier than all of them put together, apparently..
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: January 29, 2015 23:12
Quote
mr_djaQuote
stonehearted
He was there for Sympathy, as we see in One Plus One, but got relegated to percussion as Keith was becoming very interested in developing his bass playing around that time.
Is that actually why KR played bass on Sympathy or just a theory of yours? I always believed it was because he wanted to lead the recording of the rhythm track for that song with the bass as opposed to guitar.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Then why does he play on Live With Me and Street Fighting Man when there is already rhythm guitar in those tracks? I have no theory on that actually. But if he weren't interested in the instrument, then why would he pick it up and learn to play it?
It seems, and yes I'm theorizing here, that Keith was becoming more interested in the arrangements of the songs he was writing and maybe felt he could better convey the bass aspect of it himself in a few instances.
Bill complained in Stone Alone how there were numerous other instances--not noted in the musicians' credits on albums--how after Bill left the studio Keith would then erase the bass parts recorded by Bill and dub over them with his own parts, adding that he felt the only reason he was even in the band was because they needed someone to play bass on tour.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
RipThisBone
()
Date: January 29, 2015 23:12
Quote
LongBeachArena72
Have always wondered about something:
Is this an unusual amount of "A" grade songs for an essential member of the band NOT to have played on?
Ruby Tuesday
Let's Spend the Night Together
Sympathy for the Devil
Street Fighting Man
Live With Me
Happy
Rip This Joint
All Down the Line
Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker)
Silver Train
If You Can't Rock Me
It's Only Rock'n'Roll
Crazy Mama
Some Girls
Shattered
Emotional Rescue
Hang Fire
Pretty Beat Up
Tie You Up
Maybe no big deal, to have missed that many over a LONG career. And perhaps Richards and Watts have missed some, too ... but surely not even close to as many as Bill.
Not a knock on Bill; love him; just was struck by this.
Bill had other hobbies too......photographing, metal detactors, tabletennis and
(Quoting duke richardson
He was randier than all of them put together, apparently..Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
Rollin92
()
Date: January 30, 2015 00:25
Quote
Naturalust
he made 'em work live plenty of times.
In a nutshell why I think Wyman was important. He always played stuff live more interesting than the studio, imo.
People have varied opinions on him. All that matters to me is that I really dig his playing and he influenced me to play the bass. He will always remain a key part of the Stones to me, and one of my heroes too!
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 30, 2015 00:40
Bill was great for the Stones, but using a different bass track doesn't mean that he was under-appreaciated in any way. When you're focusing on making the best album possible, you'll make decisions you think will serve the album best. Only VERY FEW times were his tracks wiped. Some times he wasn't there.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
triceratops
()
Date: January 30, 2015 00:47
Quote
mr_dja
Once the band started using multi-track overdubs to produce tracks and ESPECIALLY once they started recording "on Keith time", Bill's presence was not always required to record the bass part for a song. I'd like to think that, for the most part, Bill was desired and preferred, but he really wasn't required or necessary.
You are correct. Bill would show up for a session at a reasonable hour but Keith would not arrive until 11Pm. This is when Keith's work day began. But Bill would be gone by then.
Or on other occasions when the magic struck Bill just was not there because it was a jam or noodling around. Can you really see Bill Wyman hanging around the degeneracy at Nellcote? And being available to play bass anytime at a moments notice? lol lol lol
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: January 30, 2015 00:53
Quote
duke richardson
I wonder how he managed to not have more offspring, he was randier than all of them put together, apparently..
perhaps his undergarments were a trifle snug?
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: January 30, 2015 01:01
Quote
triceratops
Can you really see Bill Wyman hanging around the degeneracy at Nellcote? And being available to play bass anytime at a moments notice? lol lol lol
If there were a few strange birds around I'm sure Bill would have found the motivation to hang...besides wasn't this the period where he was starting to smoke hash every day...Bill's degenerate period? I think he was more put off by Keith's on again/off again personal interaction.
But you're right, Nellcote seemed to be a social scene as well as a session location and Bill never seemed to fit into the social clique of the Stones.
peace
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: January 30, 2015 01:07
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Bill was great for the Stones, but using a different bass track doesn't mean that he was under-appreaciated in any way. When you're focusing on making the best album possible, you'll make decisions you think will serve the album best. Only VERY FEW times were his tracks wiped. Some times he wasn't there.
Exactly...and here are the number of times Jagger's lead vocal wasn't 'required':
Connection
In Another Land
Salt of the Earth (intro)
You Got The Silver
Happy
Coming Down Again
Memory Motel (~1/4 of the song)
Before They Make Me Run
All About You
Little T & A
Wanna Hold You
Sleep Tonight
Can't Be Seen
The Worst
Thru and Thru
Thief In The Night
How Can I Stop
Losing My Touch
This Place Is Empty
Infamy
Soul Survivor
We Had It All
I'm sure I missed a couple...anyone?
EDIT
OF COURSE, the best part of Gimme Shelter!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-01-30 01:09 by treaclefingers.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
georgelicks
()
Date: January 30, 2015 02:02
Quote
LongBeachArena72
Have always wondered about something:
Is this an unusual amount of "A" grade songs for an essential member of the band NOT to have played on?
Ruby Tuesday
Let's Spend the Night Together
Sympathy for the Devil
Street Fighting Man
Live With Me
Happy
Rip This Joint
All Down the Line
Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker)
Silver Train
If You Can't Rock Me
It's Only Rock'n'Roll
Crazy Mama
Some Girls
Shattered
Emotional Rescue
Hang Fire
Pretty Beat Up
Tie You Up
Ruby Tuesday: Bass and bowed double bass
Sympathy for the Devil: maracas and backing vocals
All Down The Line: He's on the early version released on Amazon during the Exile re-issue
Some Girls: Synthesizer
Emotional Rescue: Synthesizer
Pretty Beat Up: Electric piano
On the others, he wasn't around or his bass parts were "demo" type so someone recorded over it during the mixes.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-01-30 04:30 by georgelicks.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 30, 2015 02:04
Quote
mr_dja
I don't make that much of it considering:
One (if not both) of the composers/arrangers/producers of the songs could adequately play his instrument. (Does Jagger play bass?)
At any given time, 2-3 other band members could adequately play his instrument. (Again, does Jagger play bass?)
Yes. He did on A BIGGER BANG.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
2000 LYFH
()
Date: January 30, 2015 02:16
Bill did state that Jagger screwed up the credits on EOMS and that he was on additional tracks. Anybody have the exact quote?
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: January 30, 2015 02:33
Quote
2000 LYFH
Bill did state that Jagger screwed up the credits on EOMS and that he was on additional tracks. Anybody have the exact quote?
"Mick made a mistake with the credits on two of the cuts. He listed Mick Taylor or somebody as playing bass on Loving Cup and one other track. It was really me."
- Bill Wyman, 1981
quote borrowed from timeisonourside site
peace
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: January 30, 2015 04:35
Quote
lem motlow
it says what the stones themselves have been saying for years-the rolling stones are a live band.the tours and the live shows are what the stones are all about.
keith once said that he didnt think the stones had "ever been properly captured on record"- nowdays they tour and dont even bother to record.
what i'm saying is that bill was there when it really counted and thats all that matters.
wasn't trying to disparage bill's contributions; was just struck by the number of HUGE hits he did not play his primary instrument on.
also, in my opinion, the number of stones tracks that are better live than in studio can be counted on one hand: midnight rambler, and er, one or two others. i think they are a monster in the studio and their recorded studio legacy is WHY they can tour forever on old material.
that's not to deny that they are not great performers, of course--they certainly are. i just think their best work has been in the studio. perhaps a minority opinion, though?
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: January 30, 2015 04:37
Quote
treaclefingersQuote
DandelionPowderman
Bill was great for the Stones, but using a different bass track doesn't mean that he was under-appreaciated in any way. When you're focusing on making the best album possible, you'll make decisions you think will serve the album best. Only VERY FEW times were his tracks wiped. Some times he wasn't there.
Exactly...and here are the number of times Jagger's lead vocal wasn't 'required':
Connection
In Another Land
Salt of the Earth (intro)
You Got The Silver
Happy
Coming Down Again
Memory Motel (~1/4 of the song)
Before They Make Me Run
All About You
Little T & A
Wanna Hold You
Sleep Tonight
Can't Be Seen
The Worst
Thru and Thru
Thief In The Night
How Can I Stop
Losing My Touch
This Place Is Empty
Infamy
Soul Survivor
We Had It All
I'm sure I missed a couple...anyone?
EDIT
OF COURSE, the best part of Gimme Shelter!
All really great tracks ... but the list of tunes that Bill did not play bass on is staggering in its quality and popularity.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
Naturalust
()
Date: January 30, 2015 05:23
Quote
LongBeachArena72
that's not to deny that they are not great performers, of course--they certainly are. i just think their best work has been in the studio. perhaps a minority opinion, though?
I agree with you on this one. The songwriting and studio work is their best stuff. Especially during Jimmy Miller's time with the band. Although the concerts are great overall, there are plenty of tunes they just haven't come close to the magic of the recorded versions. peace
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: January 30, 2015 05:35
<<The songwriting and studio work is their best stuff.>>
Add this to the fact that their studio albums have far and away outsold their live albums.
There's a place for both live and studio stuff: The concert is the celebration, the experience, the party. The studio albums are the appreciation, the legacy, the pleasure.
Add this to the fact that their studio albums have far and away outsold their live albums.
There's a place for both live and studio stuff: The concert is the celebration, the experience, the party. The studio albums are the appreciation, the legacy, the pleasure.
Re: Wyman: What if anything are we to make of this?
Posted by:
ROLLINGSTONE
()
Date: January 30, 2015 16:46
Quote
LongBeachArena72
Have always wondered about something:
Is this an unusual amount of "A" grade songs for an essential member of the band NOT to have played on?
Ruby Tuesday
Let's Spend the Night Together
Sympathy for the Devil
Street Fighting Man
Live With Me
Happy
Rip This Joint
All Down the Line
Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker)
Silver Train
If You Can't Rock Me
It's Only Rock'n'Roll
Crazy Mama
Some Girls
Shattered
Emotional Rescue
Hang Fire
Pretty Beat Up
Tie You Up
Maybe no big deal, to have missed that many over a LONG career. And perhaps Richards and Watts have missed some, too ... but surely not even close to as many as Bill.
Not a knock on Bill; love him; just was struck by this.[/quote)
Everyone and his dog is on It's Only Rock N Roll
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-01-30 16:49 by ROLLINGSTONE.
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