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Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: DiscoVolante ()
Date: April 26, 2011 07:46

I haven't been on this board for a long time but I was surprised to see that so many fans here adore Brian Jones. Why? Seriously, what did he do that was so great?
Of course he was the founding member, he taught Jagger to play the harmonica and if it wasn't for him the Stones would probably not exist. But I just don't think that's enough for all the rave around him. Sure, he was the front figure in the really early days but how long did that last, a few years, if even that.

Me myself aren't very fond of the Stones early stuff, sure there are some good songs but mostly it was pretty much just covers and later really shitty attempts to psychedelia, which the Stones in my opinion never had anything to do with in the first place. For me, the Stones didn't "become" the Stones until the release of Jumping Jack Flash and Beggars Banquet in 1968, and sure, Brian was on these recordings but was already by then "gone" and when Let it bleed was released he was gone for real, just appearing on two tracks.

We all know the story, he couldn't write songs, and he got bored of the guitar and started to play all these weird foreign instruments instead when he actually showed up to the sessions. Some of you might say that he was a talented "multi-instrumentalist" and I'm sure that he was, it's just that Ron Wood is a way more talented "multi-instrumentalist" and he will never get bored of playing the guitar.

I feel that when they got rid of Brian Jones and got reborn as a group in 1969 with Mick Taylor, the Stones reached a whole new level. It was like Brian was just putting the group on hold, I'm sure it was a relief for everybody to get rid of him.

I'm sure it has to do with the "myth", because he drowned shortly after he got kicked out. What if he had survived and lived on? We could just speculate but I don't think he would do anything creative really, he would become a Syd Barret-type of icon.

Apart from being a well dressed icon of the 60's and a founding member of a band which became so much better when he wasn't in the band, what did he do? Why do so many fans still adore him?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-26 07:48 by DiscoVolante.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Vocalion ()
Date: April 26, 2011 08:53

"it's just that Ron Wood is a way more talented "multi-instrumentalist"

No, not really.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Come On ()
Date: April 26, 2011 09:07

I haven't been on this board for a long time but I was surprised to see that so many fans here adore Brian Jones. Why? Seriously, what did he do that was so great?


He formed The Rolling Stones for a starter...


Good evening one and all we're all so glad to see you here

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: April 26, 2011 09:15

Heck ...Without Brian they coulda ended up being called The Kidney Stones ......

ROCKMAN

Re: Brian Jones
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: April 26, 2011 09:36

>> Me myself aren't very fond of the Stones early stuff <<

i am sorry for you
you'll get it one day, though - don't give up hope

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: DiscoVolante ()
Date: April 26, 2011 10:34

Quote
Come On
He formed The Rolling Stones for a starter...
Wasn't that pretty much the only thing he did? He didn't write any songs, just à few riffs, but wanted to be the star in the band so bad. He was in the band for 7 years (although pretty much absent of the last 2) and the band has been going on for almost 50(!). C'mon, can he still be that important? If he would have lived on he would be forgotten and just be the guy that just couldn't make it in the band. But because of his early death he has become somewhat of a legend, forever young.

The Stones really did become something else without him, the widly considered masterpieces are the suit of Let it bleed-Sticky fingers-Exile on Main st and he isn't on those records (I can't really say percussion or autoharp is a serious contribution to a record). I have a really hard time picturing him playing Brown Sugar for an instance. Wouldn't y'all agree?

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Max'sKansasCity ()
Date: April 26, 2011 10:42

another meaningful pertinent important thread, like .....

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Sleepy City ()
Date: April 26, 2011 10:43

Quote
DiscoVolante
I have a really hard time picturing him playing Brown Sugar for an instance. Wouldn't y'all agree?

I have an even harder time picturing Mick Taylor (or Ronnie Wood) playing a sitar on Paint It Black / a recorder on Ruby Tuesday / marimbas on Under My Thumb / mellotron on 2000 Light Years From Home / oboe on Dandelion...

Wouldn't y'all agree?

The guy was a musical genius, & the only person with the onstage charisma to rival Jagger.

[themargatemusicman.blogspot.com]

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Date: April 26, 2011 10:49

All the fantastic things Brian added to the band's sound in the 60s, and you doubt his importance??

The guy's a legend for his mellotrone and his way of making that gel into a rock sound for starters. He is also very well known for the use of slide guitar in rock'n'roll. The I Wanna Be Your Man-theme only makes him deserve more respect from you, imo.

And there are just as much Stones fans thinking of songs like Under My Thumb, Satisfaction, The Last Time and Lady Jane as equal masterpieces to the one you mention.

And: There is something great in every stones era!

Re: Brian Jones
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: April 26, 2011 10:52

... you're quite er young, aren't you, DiscoVolante? :E

right, Brian was absent for quite some time before his departure from the band was formalized.
that doesn't lessen his contributions up through (say) mid-1967. the power and glory of that early stuff shines!

every element of the saga is crucial to the development of the band we love.
those "widely considered masterpieces" you mention represent a second "golden era"
that wouldn't have come about without everything that came before them.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Come On ()
Date: April 26, 2011 10:57

Brian were hangin with Dylan and Robertson already 1965...He was the musician personality in Stones for your information...


Good evening one and all we're all so glad to see you here

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: alimente ()
Date: April 26, 2011 11:06

Bullshit. And you should know it.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: elmo wiman ()
Date: April 26, 2011 11:24

Strange thinking Disco Volante, if you do not know it by now Brian was The Foundation Stone. Simple as that.
Perhaps you should pick up the history book´s and study the Rolling Stones history. Brian was a bit of a complicated nature but No Jones - No Stones.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: DiscoVolante ()
Date: April 26, 2011 11:30

Quote
Sleepy City
I have an even harder time picturing Mick Taylor (or Ronnie Wood) playing a sitar on Paint It Black / a recorder on Ruby Tuesday / marimbas on Under My Thumb / mellotron on 2000 Light Years From Home / oboe on Dandelion...

Wouldn't y'all agree?

The guy was a musical genius, & the only person with the onstage charisma to rival Jagger.
Didn't Ron Wood play a sitar guitar live on some numbers? Anyway, it's just a matter of taste. The Open G-straight forward rock n roll-guitar weaving sound is the Stones sound I love and that sound has been working for the past 40 years. And except from Under My Thumb, all those tracks belongs to the psychedelic era. Yuck, I'd rather listen to Dirty Work than that Satanic Majesties crap...

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Come On ()
Date: April 26, 2011 11:50

there were a couple of album relesed before Satanic which is not my cup of tea either...


Good evening one and all we're all so glad to see you here

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: teleblaster ()
Date: April 26, 2011 12:03

A sitar and a "sitar guitar" are two very different instruments. The sitar guitar is strung in a way that it imitates the sound of a sitar. A sitar is much harder to play.

You might want to listen to the Satanic Majesties outtakes. It certainly gave me a different perspective on the album (more Keith and Nicky Hopkins than Brian on a lot of the tracks).

For my tuppence worth, Brian was absolutely essential to the development of the Stones as an English R&B band, essential to their image (he was the pretty one in the 60s) and his musical versatility lent a uniqueness to the band during the "pop group" years. It was inevitable - given his well-documented weaknesses and failings - that he could not sustain group membership into the seventies and his untimely death meant that he could not explore subsequent musical paths.

Brian was a victim of his own success / excess. So sad. Would have loved to have seen him play Brown Sugar, but he was all burnt out by then.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Date: April 26, 2011 12:26

This era you speak of, when Taylor joined the Stones, when, in your words, they truly became the Stones, is a natural progression of what came before.
It is perfectly alright to decide the glam era is your favorite Stones period; they did a lot of great music in that time, but for your own sake: don't discount those insane early years of hard Blues, travel, and hysteria; and above all incredible music. Maybe the technology doesn't speak to you as easily and readily as the crunchy sparkly sounds from the loud Ampegs and Teles.
Brian was a fabulous istrumentalist. Not being able to write a song was part hm; just like not being able to play a xylophone after 3 hours was part of Keith. Brian's contributions to early material are incalculable.
Ron Wood is a fine guitarist; he plays a mean slide. But while Brian played a sitar on stage, Ron plays a sitar guitar. Still - not going into who is 'better' here. They are all Stones.

I have to be honest: I thought your first post was to be meant sarcastically; your own first paragraph seems to answer your question. To say " what is the deal about him? If it wasn't for him, the band wouldn't exist" is a head scratcher.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: tonterapi ()
Date: April 26, 2011 13:00

Besides being a founding member and public poster boy Brian gave the songs the sound they needed to stand out. He had an amazing understanding to what sounds to use and where and also used the instruments he brought in his own way to say the least. What you call shitty psychedelia I find excellent experimental rock music and I think that the Stones were really good at it. The late 60's music was all about experimenting with sounds and other stuff - a "think outside the box" mentality. The Satanic album and Beggar's Banquet are two of the best albums that came out of it IMHO and Brian did his fair share on those.

No, Brian couldn't/didn't write catchy pop songs. He was probably too much of a musician to be able to do that and compete with Jagger/Richards.
Brian he had his strengths elsewhere - blues, soundtracks and world music.

Quote
DiscoVolante
I can't really say percussion or autoharp is a serious contribution to a record.
Then what is? Is guitar the only instrument that counts?

Quote
DiscoVolante
I have a really hard time picturing him playing Brown Sugar for an instance. Wouldn't y'all agree?
I honestly don't think that he would have liked it as he wanted to leave because he didn't like the musical way the Stones were going with Let it Bleed. But could he have played second guitar on that song - yes. Why not?

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Sleepy City ()
Date: April 26, 2011 13:06

The ultimate Brian Jones RS album is Between The Buttons, which just happens to also be my favourite album. On this he plays organ, vibraphone, accordion, harmonica, recorder, percussion, kazoo, saxophone, Vox Bijou(electric dulcimer) , harpsichord, guitar, piano...

[themargatemusicman.blogspot.com]

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Kingbeebuzz ()
Date: April 26, 2011 13:16

As "withsssoul" says..........."DiscoVolante" you must be young.

Unfortunately anyone who did not live in the UK between 1961 and 1969 cannot possibly imagine the impact both the Stones and Beatles had within the UK.

It was not just music and fashion, it included their attitude, what they said in the media, their accents on the BBC, their humour, their unwillingness to conform in what now appear trivial ways. The Stones by 1967 were truely seen as a risk by the UK government.......unbelievable in todays society. Stones records were banned on the BBC, their images were censored on BBC television, the police targeted them, a leading UK newspaper entrapped them.

Brian Jones was central to all this and together with Lennon was responsible to a great extent for unknowingly changing UK society. True there were others but Brian and Lennon were in at the start. It was who they were.

And also for what its worth, when Brian was in the Stones it was him and Jagger that the cameras lingered on, who were interviewed and whose pictures were on a 1000 bedroom walls. Keith was shy and quiet and very rarely interviewed in the sixties when Brian was in the band (which was called a group then). It was only after Brian died that Keith emerged into the media spotlight and became more central.

It would not have hurt the Stones to issue an album of early unreleased tracks and clearly promote it as a dedication to Brian. Rock history is in danger of forgetting his contribution. "DiscoVolante's" comments would not have been made had Jagger & Richards dealt with Brian's contribution differently in passed years and it would be nice to think they were big enough to read his comments now, recognise how sad they are, and act to officially place Brian more centrally to their early history.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: marcovandereijk ()
Date: April 26, 2011 14:23

Thank you, Kingbeebuzz, for giving us a first hand report from a Brittish fan who was a witness
of those early years. It is hard for fans like me, who only discovered the Stones after
Brian had already passed away, to see the band in the right perspective when it comes
to the 60s. I can't get enough of posts like these.

I am a big fan of the Brian-years. Aftermath, Now!, the first record, Between the Buttons
and the singles collection London Years, are among the records I play the most. Their
creativity was immens and though we never really know who created what in the studio,
I am very positive that Brian was very important for the music that came out of them in this era.
Read Bill's books to find out more of the importance of Brian Jones.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: ghostryder13 ()
Date: April 26, 2011 14:44

until 1969 brian was the stones . i love mick taylor and ronnie but brian and ian stewart founded the stones and without him ,we would be listening to little boy blue and the blue boys without wyman and watts as well. and that's if they would of got a record deal.for a stones fan to say brian is overrated is like a christian saying god is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-26 20:35 by ghostryder13.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Sleepy City ()
Date: April 26, 2011 14:48

Quote
ghostryder13
until 1969 brian was the stones .

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Keith became Brian in several ways:

Band leader.

Main co-vocalist (the main backing vocals in the early days were by Brian & Bill, & Brian even had a solo spot with 'You Better Move On' according to at least one early report)

Main interviewee (along with Mick).

Main drug casualty / liability.

Anita's other half.

[themargatemusicman.blogspot.com]

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 26, 2011 15:00

When he lost his interest in playing the guitar and started using too much drugs, he digged his own grave.

Apart from that: How can the founder of the Rolling Stones be overrated?

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Sleepy City ()
Date: April 26, 2011 15:06

Quote
Amsterdamned
When he lost his interest in playing the guitar and started using too much drugs, he digged his own grave.

Apart from that: How can the founder of the Rolling Stones be overrated?

Actually I thought he was at his best when he lost interest in his guitar & picked up all those other instruments instead.

[themargatemusicman.blogspot.com]

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: ab ()
Date: April 26, 2011 15:31

As a harmonica player, I can attest to his skills on the harmonica. He was absolutely top shelf. Check out his playing on Come On (the only redeemable part of that track), Not Fade Away, Look What You Done, etc. Then you add in all the other things he did that others have described in detail earlier in this thread. His story is more one of talent squandered.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Big Al ()
Date: April 26, 2011 15:31

I always thought of Brian as being the rhythm guitarist who occasionally added some superb harp-playing, decent slide or some interesting - and mainly excellent - instrumentation. He deserves credit for what he achieved and bought o the table, but for me, Brian the character is far more interesting: he was the man-about-town, the hipster who oozed fashion and really had an elegant air of cool about him. Perhaps I shouldn't, but I've always focused on Keith more in a musical sense.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: carlostones10 ()
Date: April 26, 2011 15:32

Quote
DiscoVolante
I haven't been on this board for a long time but I was surprised to see that so many fans here adore Brian Jones. Why? Seriously, what did he do that was so great?
Of course he was the founding member, he taught Jagger to play the harmonica and if it wasn't for him the Stones would probably not exist. But I just don't think that's enough for all the rave around him. Sure, he was the front figure in the really early days but how long did that last, a few years, if even that.

Me myself aren't very fond of the Stones early stuff, sure there are some good songs but mostly it was pretty much just covers and later really shitty attempts to psychedelia, which the Stones in my opinion never had anything to do with in the first place. For me, the Stones didn't "become" the Stones until the release of Jumping Jack Flash and Beggars Banquet in 1968, and sure, Brian was on these recordings but was already by then "gone" and when Let it bleed was released he was gone for real, just appearing on two tracks.

We all know the story, he couldn't write songs, and he got bored of the guitar and started to play all these weird foreign instruments instead when he actually showed up to the sessions. Some of you might say that he was a talented "multi-instrumentalist" and I'm sure that he was, it's just that Ron Wood is a way more talented "multi-instrumentalist" and he will never get bored of playing the guitar.

I feel that when they got rid of Brian Jones and got reborn as a group in 1969 with Mick Taylor, the Stones reached a whole new level. It was like Brian was just putting the group on hold, I'm sure it was a relief for everybody to get rid of him.

I'm sure it has to do with the "myth", because he drowned shortly after he got kicked out. What if he had survived and lived on? We could just speculate but I don't think he would do anything creative really, he would become a Syd Barret-type of icon.

Apart from being a well dressed icon of the 60's and a founding member of a band which became so much better when he wasn't in the band, what did he do? Why do so many fans still adore him?

ah, of course is a joke. You are joking. smileys with beer

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 26, 2011 16:27

Quote
Sleepy City
Quote
Amsterdamned
When he lost his interest in playing the guitar and started using too much drugs, he digged his own grave.

Apart from that: How can the founder of the Rolling Stones be overrated?

Actually I thought he was at his best when he lost interest in his guitar & picked up all those other instruments instead.

Sure he was good on other instruments, but the Stones where a 2 guitar band basically, and Keith didn't want to do it on his own. Using huge amounts of dope didn't make it any better.

Re: Brian Jones. Overrated?
Posted by: leteyer ()
Date: April 26, 2011 17:01

"Seriously, what did he do that was so great?
Of course he was the founding member, he taught Jagger to play the harmonica and if it wasn't for him the Stones would probably not exist."


Not enough?

Oh, I'm sorry it's a joke, funny, ha, ha, ha.

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