I know this is probably redundant, but, is there a way to find out when the individual tracks originated? I've broke out the record for the first time in nearly 15 years the other day. I love a lot of it and like the rest. But it sounds to me that Mick Taylor is doing a solo on at least one track. Not too mention Jagger's voice sounds more circa "exile" than "some girls". In hind-sight I'm glad that Mick went for the falcetto disco crap. It's kind of nice now that it's dated a little. Anyhow if anyone feels like loading some info on me I'd appreciate it. I'm curious now that I'm not listening to it as an 16-year-old kid. The record really sounds like a hodge-podge of the 70's.

There were only 3 new songs on Tattoo You and the most sucessful album of the decade reported Victor Bockris: "Start Me Up" was changed from a Reggae tune to a Rock track by Mick. SMU was one of the Stones most successful singles of all their songs and THE SONG of 1981

"Tattoo You" was "COBBLED TOGETHER FROM OUTTAKES, BETWEEN 1975-79. . Mick called in Bob Clearmountain and he and Keith reedited it. "Clearmountain made the important decision to mix Charlie's drums up front and put the dual guitars in the foreground, (like it use to be when Keith and Brian did this with the first Stones Albums).

Mick changed the title of the album "slightly" without letting Keith in on the decision. It was oiginally titled "Tattoo" and when it was released Keith was annoyed because Mick changed the title to "TATTOO YOU." Keith asked: "What's this "Tattoo You?" Mick didn't like sharing the decisions with the new Keith, the one that was shedding the "heavy druggie out of it type." Mick made the remark, "I wish he was still a junkie."

Hope this helps ya a bit.

Try 'Complete Works of the Rolling Stones 1962 - 2004' site. Actually the oldest tracks seem to be 'Tops', & 'Waiting On A Friend' (Goats Head), tho I only hear Mick T for certain on the former. Additional recording on new trax & overdubs/mixing on some older ones took place in '81, including Sonny Rollins' terrific saxophone.'Worried About You' has Wayne Perkins on guitar (Black & Blue), & Slave originated from those sessions but like all of side 1, has Ron Wood on guitar (or bass, 'Hang Fire'). Other tracks were begun at Some Girls ('Hang Fire') or Emotional Rescue sessions (Ain't No Use', 'Little T & A') & Heaven, Neighbors, Start Me Up seem to be the newest recordings (or versions, in case of SMU).

Thanks for the quick info guys. The solo on "worried" is defintely Taylor, that in itself dates it to early 70's. Taylor was and is still such an amazing guitar player. I know the Stones put out some great record apre' Taylor but just imagine if he'd made it through those drugged out years? You have to give the guy credit for lasting as long as he did. Not too many people could have hung with Keith, Charlie and the rest of the cast and crew for too long. He was probably smart to get out and live on. Still, an absolute amazing blues guitarist. He was perfect for the band.

MisterD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the quick info guys. The solo on
> "worried" is defintely Taylor, that in itself
> dates it to early 70's.

No, it's not............. type worried about you under search and you'll find an older thread about this topic.

All of the vocals were re-recorded in 80/81. Some just a few weeks before release date. Sonny Rollins Sax was used to emulate some guitar parts.
"Hang Fire" stared during Goats Head sessions: Its a Jamacian term for doing nothing
"Start Me Up" was reggae and didnt work after 40 something takes. On a lark during a break, Keith played it Rock style and it stuck, according to Charlie
"Worried" from Goats
"Slave" Black and Blue
"Waiting On Friend originally had MT on it. Listen to Sonny's sax part, its
a MT solo played on a sax. (Taylor got some royalties from that song)
"T&A came along somewhere during SG-ER sessions
I think Neighbors was a new one penned by Keith. He lived in an apt above a record store on West 4th street in NYC, The Village, and the neighbors were always bitching about the noise. He had a soundproof room built to shut them up and got a song out of it.
"Heaven" may date back to 73 and Bill Wyman Plays guitar on it.

Milo, NYC
It's not the singer, it's the song

There were only 3 new songs on Tattoo You and the most sucessful album of the decade reported Victor Bockris: "Start Me Up" was changed from a Reggae tune to a Rock track by Mick. SMU was one of the Stones most successful singles of all their songs and THE SONG of 1981

Milo Yammbag Wrote:
> "Hang Fire" stared during Goats Head sessions:
> "Worried" from Goats
> "Slave" Black and Blue
> "Waiting On Friend originally had MT on it.
> Listen to Sonny's sax part, its
> a MT solo played on a sax. (Taylor got some
> royalties from that song)
> I think Neighbors was a new one penned by
> Keith. He lived in an apt above a record store on
> "Heaven" may date back to 73 and Bill Wyman
> Plays guitar on it.
>

Start Me Up: Pathe Marconi, 1977. It didn't start as a reggea, but at a point a reggea rythm was tried. It never worked.
Hang Fire: first version March 1978, Hang Fire is also an British English term.
Slave: first versions from Rotterdam, February 1975, recorded during the guitarist hunt.
Black Limousine: first version recorded in Munich, 1973, with Ron Wood as a guest. Version from TY recorded in June 1978.
Waiting on a Friend: recorded December 1972 in Jamaica. Taylor's guitar parts can still be heard, only his introduction lines were rerecorded by Rollins.
Worried About You: Recorded February 1975 in Rotterdam.
Neighbours: written by Mick on Keith's problems with neighbours in New York.
Heaven" no Bill Wyman on guitar, that's Mick Jagger.

Mathijs

Thnks Mathijs, pretty much what I said (& believed) imo Worried is clearly Perkins - slightly 'rockier' tone than MT's more liquid solo on 'Tops' - just compare WAY to his B & B solos. Black Limo also sounds like Sugar Blue on harmonica (only worked w/them beginning w/ SG)

Only two songs ('Heaven' and 'Neighbours') were first recorded after Emotional Rescue - both on November 1980. Sonny Rollins' sax parts on the album were added in spring 1981 in New York

To correct what I assume is a typing error by Mathijs - Black Limousine was recorded in June 1979, not 1978.

Perkins is definitely on guitar on WAY.

Wasn't Start Me Up re-recorded for TY?

No..for Emotional rescue.

The Tattoo You version comes from November 1979.

"START ME UP" isn't on "Emotional Rescue," (But, Gazza probably meant it was tried out/re-recorded for "possible use" on "Emotional Rescue" in 1979, it was not re-recorded/changed, at that time). SMU was still a reggae tune in 1979. "Start Me Up" wasn't changed until 1980. Here's what I found:

"Emotional Rescue" was released in June 1980, then, "Sucking In The Seventies," (regarded as a substandard compilation) was released, then "TATTOO YOU" in 1981.

"By the time Richards went to Paris to meet Jagger in October to start work on the next STONES album, "Tattoo You," (this was Paris 1980, 1980's section, page 308) everything between them was copacetic." (Victor Bockris)

"Two of the four songs recorded in the October-November sessions at Pathe-Marconi
in Paris, (this is a 1980 reference again) were celebrations of their friendship, [Keith and Mick's] the loving "Waiting on a friend" and "Neighbor's."

"By the time Richards joined the rest of the band menbers in the fall of 1980 to hammer out songs for a new album, everyone noticed the change in him."
However, the mood changed, and only "three" new songs were recorded for the new album. (From VB, KR)

Yes, "the Stones turned to their rich inventory of material and relying on tracks recorded between 1975 and 1979, put together an album that would be their most successful of the decade." (V

But, as I quoted before, (from Bockris) it appears that this is what happened to "START ME UP" and this in the Fall of 1980: "It was Jagger, for example, WHO DUSTED OFF a 1979 Richards tune called "START ME UP," and by turning it from a Reggae song into a rock track and speeding it up, made it into one of the most successful singles of their career..."I found it,"Mick remembered, "put it together, wrote the lyrics, put it on, and Keith said, 'I can't believe it, it's just wild.'" Jagger also brought in Clearmountain to mix "Tattoo you." (VB, 309-310)

"Tattoo You" was released August, 1981. So, it appears that, "START ME UP" was REWORKED for "Tattoo You" in 1980, and not in 1979 for "Emotional Rescue," and that it was still a Reggae tune and only then, switched to the "Rock gem" in 1980, the version that we all know and love today.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2005-01-03 00:37 by Demon.

Start Me Up....started out as Never Stop.

Never Stop
Musicland Studios, Munich, Germany
March - April 1975

Found on
LA Fog - VGP 277
Tattoo Two - Rattle Snake RS 071-072
Start Us Up - MD 2009

ROCKMAN

Start me up was reworked on during two Emotional rescue sessions in 1979 (versions IV and V). But The Emotional rescue and Tattoo You sessions were in reality just the same sessions....

We're talking about START ME UP "changing from Reggae to Rock" on TATTOO YOU from 1979 and 1980.

All the songs start as something, Example: YOU GOT IT MADE has went thru several renditions and titles, the most finished is "YOU GOT IT MADE" I hope Keith polishes it off and does it himself next tour.

Demon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We're talking about START ME UP "changing from
> Reggae to Rock" on TATTOO YOU from 1979 and 1980.
>
> the only reggae version (it was not really reggae in the first place....) was recorded in 1977, so there is no 1979 / 1980 issue!

I didnt say Start Me UP was on ER. I said it was re-recorded for Emotional Rescue, which is the case as it comes from November 1979. The version of "Tops" on TY comes from the same session.

Bockris is wrong. His book is entertaining, but like most Stones biographies contains errors. His strength is as a journalist, not as a historian. Neither was "Start Me Up" a tune from 1979, its actually from the mid 70's. There are outtakes of it recorded during the sessions for "Some Girls" but the original sessions date from Musicland Studios, Munich in spring 1975 when it was first tried out for Black and Blue. The credits on "Jump Back" list it as being recorded at Musicland, so the basic track dates from there in '75 and they would have added parts to it years later.

"Slave" was also reworked at the November 1980 session in Paris along with "Heaven" and "Neighbours".

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bockris is wrong.

That's true. No historian what so ever! The 1975 version was never RECORDED I believe. I think it was not more than a jam-style thing. When listening to the other 1975 Rotterdam / Munich session-songs. The first RECORDED version must be the one for some girls in 1977.

.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-01-03 01:14 by Demon.

The album liner notes sure dont give you the complete story, thats certainly true (with the exception of Black and Blue perhaps), and the recording info on "Jump Back" pretty annoying in that respect, in that it doesnt adequately cover the fact that the Stones have very often down the years used a basic track from one session and then added bits to it years later.

the problem with most of these biographies is that while they're maybe good from a journalistic point of view (and I think Bockris' book is a great read, even though I think he short-changes Mick's contribution to the band) they dont delve that deeply into the factual side of the things in the way that many fans would, because a) its a hobby to people like us and b) to most readers, its not really that interesting to get anal like we are about whether an outtake hardly anyone has ever heard comes from 1975 or 1977 or whatever.

there's two types of books you can use for reference, I guess - the Bockris, Davis, Kris Needs, Nick Kent style efforts which while they may be more interesting to read are basically journalistic hack jobs often with questionable research - or the ones concentrating solely on the music and written by historians of repute such as Nico Zentgraf, Felix Aeppli etc. very rarely do you find a book on the Stones which is a good blend of both fields.

I have found yet another reference to "START ME UP." This comes from: "THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO THE MUSIC OF THE ROLLING STONES, By James Hector;

It ["Start Me Up"] BEGAN as a REGGAE tune as far back as the 'Black and Blue' sessions, was presented with a rock backbeat" during the making of 'SOME GIRLS'. BEFORE BEING GIVEN THE 'BROWN SUGAR' MAKEOVER FOR this album "TATTOO YOU." (page 122) That's Hector's version. He doesn't mention "Emotional Rescue" in this sense, in the reworking of SMU.

So, even Hector says "START ME UP" wasn't changed to what we know as "START ME UP" today, until the "TATTOO YOU" sessions.

I don't think we can say one author is wrong, or not wrong, etc. It's their take/slant on the subject they are writing about. We all have our favorite versions that we go to for reference. At least I have documented where I got my references from. Liners of albums don't give you "the complete" story, we have to cull from the many different sources available to us. I was interested in this thread and responded. We all will believe what we want to, the STONES only know the REAL TRUTH, anyway.

And in reference to "NEVER STOP," I read in an interview that many songs come out of bits and pieces of others, (Keith says). In someone elses interview, some mag at Border's Bookstore last year, I read that "Don't Stop" came out of "Never Stop." (Refering to Mick alluding to that one, himself.)

Hector's not correct. The circulating alternate versions prove otherwise. A lot of these guys write books and copy mistakes made by other people (a bit like that oft repeated myth - which appears in Bockris' book and originated by Nick Kent - about Keith thumping Ronnie onstage at Wembley in '82..it didnt happen yet Ive read 3 or 4 books which recycle the same nonsense)

Anyway, to be honest I dont even think the Stones themselves would be the definitive source for the most part. Studio logs would.

Mick is notoriously uninterested in this stuff, if you were to pick 10 obscure released songs from their back catalogue at random and ask him what album they come from, I think he'd struggle to tell you. Bill once described him as "hopeless..and so's Charlie", although he acknowledged that Keith has a very good memory. Mick after all had to give back the advance he got from Faber & Faber in the mid 80's to write his autobiography because he couldnt hardly remember anything!

These people obviously live much too interesting lives to think in minute detail about the stuff we pore over on here!

Demon: my references come from Zentgraf AND Hoffmann AND Aeppli. They basicly all say the same thing....I found them to be very reliable in the past! Also I trust my own boots. My 1977 version is clearly NOT reggae. So the song changed into a rock song years before the Tattoo sessions you mentioned. IMHO Hector made a little mistake.

>Zentgraf AND Hoffmann AND Aeppli

Those three guys are IMO the best authorities on documenting the Stones' recorded history.

Gazza wrote:
"the problem with most of these biographies is that while they're maybe good from a journalistic point of view (and I think Bockris' book is a great read, even though I think he short-changes Mick's contribution to the band)"

Gaz, many times I have run across Bockris actually giving credit to Mick on may things, re-read the book, especially on the Topic of "TATTOO YOU." page 303, and especially pages 309-310. But after I read the book, I felt at times, hey, this book titled KEITH RICHARDS is pretty favorable to Mick too! Just goes to show two different reader's and their opposing views on the same book.

Gazza wrote:
"Anyway, to be honest I dont even think the Stones themselves would be the definitive source for the most part. Studio logs would."

Yeah, I have proof and a copy of the "studio logs" from the LICKS Tour rehearsals, that the boys actually rehearsed LOVE IS STRONG. It was on the ROLLING STONES official site too, from a July, 2002 date, (in one of those window pop-ups with the pull down thingy). Can you believe, that many posters replying to my post on this topic, still discounted the fact? And from a copy of the STUDIO LOGS too and in Keith and Ronnie's handwriting!

Oh I wouldnt say its a Mick-bashing book by any stretch of the imagination, but I just think his (understandable) admiration for Keith clouds his take on a few things.

Its been a while since I've read it, maybe all this mention of it might get me to pick it up again.

Did you read Kris Needs' book on keith which came out a few months ago?

When I asked about it, it wasn't in yet, at the local book store, I plan on checking it out. But, it sounds like the same type of book, such as Bockris wrote. I like this reference to Keef. "The World's Blackest White Man." :

Here are three reviews, two of which are two customer's contrasting reviews on the Needs book:

-----------------
Editorial Reviews

"The World's Blackest White Man." "The World's Most Elegantly Wasted Human Being." "The Human Riff." These descriptions are all part of the myth surrounding the legendary songwriter and rhythm guitarist of the Rolling Stones. A veteran observer of the rock scene on both sides of the Atlantic, Kris Needs has interviewed Keith Richards regularly for 25 years. Drawing on archives, interviews, and his encyclopedic knowledge of the Stones' discography, he reveals the complex man behind the myth, from blues-infatuated working class kid to world-renowned musician nearly ruined by heroin to present-day elder statesman of rock who continues to find personal redemption in music. Dozens of photographs and interviews with the legend himself make this the most up-to-date biography of the "Soul of the Stones."
2 different takes on this book caught my interest:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Customer Reviews
Avg. Customer Review:
Write an online review and share your thoughts with other customers.

1 of 2 people found the following review helpful:

Try a Little Harder, October 20, 2004
Reviewer: with sssoul (Poland) - See all my reviews
Kris Needs has a nice writing style, and bubbles with a lot of enthusiasm for Keith, so it's too bad he hasn't been paying better attention: The book is full of glaring inaccuracies that you don't even need to be a particularly intent Stones fan or Keith devotee to notice. If you were having trouble finding a competent researcher, editor and/or proofreader, Kris, all you had to do was call me!

---------------------------------------
strangely inspiring, September 14, 2004
Reviewer: M. Ashby "ecclectic" (florida) - See all my reviews

A fascinating look at what makes Kieth Richards tick. Needs is very knowledgable about his subject, but what really made this book compelling was the insight into Kieth's personality and the contrast between his very real bad boy image and his creativity and compassion. The author makes no bones about being a charter member of the "Keef" fan club but after reading this book I'm inclined to join him.






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-01-03 02:01 by Demon.

Potted Shrimp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gazza Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Bockris is wrong.
>
> That's true. No historian what so ever! The 1975
> version was never RECORDED I believe. I think it

I fully agree. I really don't care for Bockris or any other so-called biography author. To have interviewed Keith three times doesn't make you an in-the-know kind of guy.

I stick to my very own ears, and to the story as told by Chris Kimsey. First, there's about 7 or 8 Start Me Up / Never Stop versions available on vynil or CD, and ALL these versions are from 1977. The sound of the drums is the absolute give-away (Charlie changed his blue Gretsch drum set to a natural Maple Gretsch drum set in 1977). I have never heard a version of SMU from 1975, not even the reggea version. Second, in the words of Chris Kimsey: Keith had this riff in Pathe-Marconi while recording Some Girls (so 1977), and they worked on it for an entire night, recording at least 40 takes. They tried everything: rock, punk, reggae, ballad, but it just never clicked. They forgot about it, until Kimsey offered Jagger to look through the archive for songs that could be used. Kimsey checked his notebooks, and searched for this Never Stop song. Kimsey remixed the song, but Jagger still wasn't convinced. The click happened when Bob Clearmountain took the tape, and used his -now very famous- trick: put a set of studio monitors in a large bathroom, place a mike in front of it, and record it with all the natural echo. An instant hit was born. Jagger rewrote the lyrics, and there you have it.

Mathijs