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ROLLINGSTONE

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rlngstns

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ROLLINGSTONE

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Palace Revolution 2000

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SwayStones

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Edith Grove

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Palace Revolution 2000
Why did the show all the sudden go on like a great gig after the murder?

I think I remember hearing that Hunter died later at the hospital.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

I always thought that The Stones, unaware of what had just happened, went on singing on stage . When doctors arrived, Hunter was pronounced dead and his corpse was flown away by helicopter.
I am not trying of course to minimize what happened ,but this was filmed ,although
Hunter was just one of four people who died in Altamont. Two others were killed when the driver of a Plymouth stepped into a campfire and hit them . The body of a "John Doe" was found in an irrigation canal .They said 850 suffered injuries.

I'm not sayig that the Stones changed anything they were doing before or after. What I am trying to say is that most accounts agree that the latter section of the concert was very good. That the Angels calmed down and let the show progress.

How well they played might have something to do with when they threatened NOT to continue Keith having a pistol jammed in to his side and ordered to 'Play!'
IF you believe Sonny Barger's account who then went on to say that Keith then played like a Motherfker.

Question for you...was sonny the angel that was staring down jagger during one of the songs, and also the one who eventually pulled the guy that was tripping on the stage...thanks

That could be our boy. Back to us in photo.http://deansguide.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/altamont-and-jagger.jpg

thank you

There is simply no evidence to support your claims.

Persistent rumors abounded of a "second stabber". The case was reopened and a photo forensics expert was hired to enhance,etc All the photographic evidence. Alan Passaro was acquitted by a jury of 8 men and 4 women who had access to all photo evidence then available. Passaro died in 1985 of drowning.

Just for the record, over 1,000 people were interviewed. The theory of other stabbers was dismissed both by Passro's attorney (who had every motive to introduce it) as well as the cold case detectives.

The case was closed in 2005 after a rather exhaustive considering the time which had passed.

To say Jagger was unafraid at Altamont would be untrue.

Over 20 camera persons were filming that day. Since the theatre version is very heavily edited, we cannot rely on it to be "The Zapruder Film" of the event. We see only that which the creators want us to see.

The "face making" comments regarding Hunter are his licking his lips rapidly; a well known symptom of methamphetamine users who are called "tweakers". Though it does appear that Hunter lost his footing or has just emerged into the clearing created by fans who backed away prior to drawing his weapon, what occured just prior to this is not revealed in the film.

let us too remeber that the majority of interviews, columns, etc were written well BEFORE the film was released. Thus, the editors chose what we would and would not see. No less than four cameras caught the event. Also, just as Hunter is being stabbed you can see the flash of a hand held camera go off-clearly-.

What we see also must be reviewed over and over. For example, in 40 years, I've never heard anyone comment about Mick Jagger's physical scufffle with a female just as the Hunter incident is taking place. She walks between the gaps of the numerous Hells Angels (whose attention is drawn elsewhere and attempts to embrace him. She has something in her hands, perhpas a boquet of flowers, and we see Mick throw his hands up and push her away instictively. Not long after that, another female fan approaches him for the side and gives him and encouraging hug- only to be hustled off stage by someone.

I've never heard anyone mention that Marty Balin threw his tambourine (ostensibly at a Hells Angel) with a great deal of force just before he hops offstage to get clocked.

But these things are all there.

Methamphetamine was widley employed by the Nazis in WWII. @#$%& himself received daily injections of it.

Does Sonny Barger give a truthful account of Altamont in his book?

Meredith Hunter was no different than any other black youth that day, even if he was with a white female. Traditonaly, racial attacks instigated against inter racial couples are initiated against BOTH participants. This was the East Bay Area, home of the Black Panther Party. This was the Berekley area, the bastion of liberalism. More inter racial dating was seen in this area perhaps than anywhere else in the country at that time. It is highly unlikey that, even if racism were the motive, the Hells Angels would choose such a venue.

We see his girlfriend attempting to RESTRAIN Hunter, not tend to his wounds. We see her struggle with him physically perhaps because she knew he had a gun and what would happen if he chose to brandish it. Hunter was a member of a street gang called The East Bay Executors, he was known to carry a gun.

The only thing worse than carying a gun in such a large crowd would be to carry an unloaded gun.

We do not see Hunter attempting to flee a scuffle. We do not see him reacting in anway but with agression and resolve.

The Stones and their manager, while perhpas not being fully aware a death had just occured, were very much aware that a full scale riot might be avoided if they continued to play. Hunter was pronounced at 6:10 PM. He died at the scene.

Sonny Barger is not visible in the film except in the scene where several Hells Angels arrive on their bikes and the crowd parts to allow them to pass. Sonny stops and is given a jug of wine to drink from.

A UCLA med student was the first person to attempt to revive Hunter, and he states that there were "no signs of life" by the time he reached him.

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Ravallion
The Stones and their manager, while perhpas not being fully aware a death had just occured, were very much aware that a full scale riot might be avoided if they continued to play. Hunter was pronounced at 6:10 PM. He died at the scene.

Sonny Barger is not visible in the film except in the scene where several Hells Angels arrive on their bikes and the crowd parts to allow them to pass. Sonny stops and is given a jug of wine to drink from.

A UCLA med student was the first person to attempt to revive Hunter, and he states that there were "no signs of life" by the time he reached him.

Are you an Angel or a cop?

In that sea of humanity, it looked like a wide spectrum of ethnic and racial backgrounds. He was not the only guy there with a white woman. In fact, I'll bet he was not the only person there with a gun.

What was different? He clearly flourished a weapon in front of the security staff (Hell's Angels). They in turn did what security personnel are prone to do at concerts, they opened a can of AssKick and went to work.

It's not like this guy in the LIME GREEN leisure suit was the only person that had his block knocked off that day. Take a gander at all the people THROWN forcibly off the stage. The laying of hands by the security team when the Harley was knocked over. It was a display of brute force by the security staff pretty much from the moment the event started.

This is the same security staff that knocked out one of the Jefferson Airplane DURING THEIR PERFORMANCE! Marty (obviously not black) was given the free sedative called a straight right to the head and it did not seem to make any difference to the Angel who or what color he was.

This movie quite clearly demonstrated what happens when you enlist the services of a known violent band of men tripping LSD as your security detail.

The one thing that to this day blows me away is how the guy consoling the friend of the guy killed is telling her, "oh he'll be alright". Alright? They had the body completely draped over! Even in one's wildest hallucination, a covered body is a very dead one.

CBII

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Does Sonny Barger give a truthful account of Altamont in his book?

He comes across as truthful but at the same time sounds like someone who's a bit p'ssed off at the hype and publicity it has added to The Stones mystique over the years. It's as if he's saying in reality it was all really down to them (The Angels). Which I suppose is true to a degree. As Ravallion indicates in his post, Barger says the Stones were like frightened little boys and who wouldn't be when having a gun jammed in to their side and ordered to play like happened to Keith (IF Barger's being honest).

I suspect The Stones knew and indeed feared that the Angels could turn on them at any second and had that happened...well zap goes their security and we might well have ended up with a dead band.

"I'll be in my basement room with a needle and a spoon."

I don't think anybody asked the Angels to turn up up with pool cues or knives to keep "order".


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

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Deltics
I don't think anybody asked the Angels to turn up up with pool cues or knives to keep "order".

There in lay a large part of the problem. The Stones had hired the London Angels for the Hyde Park gig which was trouble free. The London version of the Angels were mainly 'weekend Angels'with shiny bikes to scoot about on whereas those good old boys fron Cali were an entirely different life form altogether. At best the Stones and their management could be accused of extreme naivety. No one would have had to ask those Angels to turn up with pool cues or knives. From the people in the know at the time, nothing less would have been expected.

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Deltics
I don't think anybody asked the Angels to turn up up with pool cues or knives to keep "order".

There in lay a large part of the problem. The Stones had hired the London Angels for the Hyde Park gig which was trouble free. The London version of the Angels were mainly 'weekend Angels'with shiny bikes to scoot about on whereas those good old boys fron Cali were an entirely different life form altogether. At best the Stones and their management could be accused of extreme naivety. No one would have had to ask those Angels to turn up with pool cues or knives. From the people in the know at the time, nothing less would have been expected.

Nail on the head.



From Mojo August 2009


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

I still think it was almsot inevitable. It was a mess! You take all of Ravallion's posts, Deltics and ROLLINGSTONE's last ones, and CBII, and add Sonny Barger's accounts. The whole thing took place in a virtual powder keg of time and circumstance. Late 60's, California - lots of alcohol and bad dope, irritable crowd and 100's of thousands. Then add a "security force" that was brought in complete ignorance of what they were about. The US Angels are violent; I mean they will be the first to tell you. The violence was outrageous; we've all seen the heavily edited films,heard accounts but one thing everyone agrees on: it was violent. Of course Hunter was no innocent angel. Anyone carrying a gun to a concert is no innocent lamb. He was outnumbered. It was going to happen.
The Stones had to be scared shitless. I have played gigs to biker crowds; of course not even remotely close to this situation, but we were hassled in a major way, and I was crapping my pants.

sweetcharmedlife: Why do I have to be either?

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Edith Grove
Does Sonny Barger give a truthful account of Altamont in his book?

Sonny Barger tells the truth as he sees/saw it with the exception that he will not implicate himself or another in any event that might bring criminal charges.

Even before he wrote his book, all the industry experts agreed it would be a best seller. There is no motive for Mr Barger to lie or embellish any event recorded in his book.

Further, his 16 minute on-air interview with KSAN the following night is factual in that the majority of his version of events are born out in the film itself.

He flatly stated the Angels were duped, and in effect, the very people who invited them attempted to denounce them for doing the job they were asked to do.

If he says he stuck a pistol to Keith Richard's side, he is doing so for all posterity and we ought to give the benefit of the doubt. Besides, all that needs to be done is for Keith Richards to deny this.

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Deltics
I don't think anybody asked the Angels to turn up up with pool cues or knives to keep "order".

Angels have always worn knives no matter where they go. Even today. The pool cues in my opinion were a moderate choice given the alternatives,such as baseball bats.

Late 1968 some English bikers wore unauthorized Death's Head logos and the words, HELLS ANGELS without knowledge of American Angels. Some of these bikers flew to California and actually prospected. Subsequently a charter was issued on July 30, 1969.

The only issue with this is that the Hyde Park Concert was on July 5th. Whoever formed the "honor guard" for the Roling Stones that day, they were not Hells Angels, merely they wore the clothing.

Though this is inconceivable today, in 1969 the Angels were still a predominantly California group. At any rate, 25 days before an actual charter was established, a group of "bikers" apprently representing numerous clubs included some personating the Hells Angels.

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I remember reading an earlier quote from Hunter's girlfriend saying that they had been smoking meth all day and her constant praising of Mick Jagger had caused Hunter to pull the gun and run at the stage in a jealous rage, with her trying to restrain him.

I'm no drug expert, but I thought meth was a recent thing, like the last decade or two. Was that even around back then?

Oh hell yes, that stuff has been around for ever.

Mothers Little Helper
Puppy Uppers (SNL skitt)
Uppers
Speed
White Crosses
Bennie's (or was that Dexi's)
Go pills (Military gargin)
Truckers pills

Terms that all refer to Amphetamines.

CBII

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Ravallion
To say Jagger was unafraid at Altamont would be untrue.

I agree with that one 100%. Jagger and everyone on that stage had to be totally freaked out. Only a complete idiot or someone ignorant to the situation around them would not be concerned about things getting out of control.

We have been on stage playing and BIG fights have broke out right in front of us. Even with the security just off stage and those in front, it would not take much for them to be overwhelmed by a crowd of people.

Yeah man, it can be very un-nerving.

CBII

[www.dead.net]#



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

[www.abc.net.au]

Click on Sam Cutler related media.



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

This is an amazing find! Thanks so much.

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[www.dead.net]#

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CBII

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Ravallion
To say Jagger was unafraid at Altamont would be untrue.

I agree with that one 100%. Jagger and everyone on that stage had to be totally freaked out. Only a complete idiot or someone ignorant to the situation around them would not be concerned about things getting out of control.

We have been on stage playing and BIG fights have broke out right in front of us. Even with the security just off stage and those in front, it would not take much for them to be overwhelmed by a crowd of people.

Yeah man, it can be very un-nerving.

The thing that has always been prominent in my mind is that since The Stones played last; they must've heard other musician's reports about the violence and the Hells Angels. I'm certain if they could have found a way, they would have chosen not to even play. I don't know how far into the set they were when Mick begins pleading with the crowd, but it is evident he was attempting to ward off a total stampede. Since the film is subtitled when there is speaking, what is said by others though it can be heard,its NOT subtitled.

There is one scene where Keith shouts out "@#$%& Angels, man!" before he launches off into his "either these cats cool it man, or we're splitting monologue." You do not see "@#$%& Angels, man" subtitle, but you can hear it.

Since nothing could truly be discerned from the stage apparenty all the Stones saw was the backs of Hells Angels wading into the crowd: they never saw what provoked it.

I think all of this was extremely gutsy on the part of Keith and Mick, since they were surrounding by Hells Angels onstage. We now know that at least Sonny Barger took great offense at what he saw was The Stone's attempt to villify the Angels, and we have his account of pulling a gun on Keith Richards.

Imagine how this event must have racheted up the fear factor. Imagine being Mick and watching the long haired guy in the denim jacket freak out barely 15 feet from him. One enterpising Hells Angel, the Wolf Head guy, grabs the mike and tells the crowd to STFU or "do you all want to go home or what?".

I mean, it was a collective effort at one point to get some sort of control back, by both The Stones and the Hells Angels. Even some of the audience "deputized" theselves in this effort. One black male wearing a brimless floppy "beach hat" takes up a positon in front of the stage and can be seen motioning with his arms for the crowd to stay down and away from the stage. This is in the final minutes before the Hunter stabbing.

Just about every scene of the crowd filmed in the minutes leading up to the stabbing, you can see how whacked out everyone is. LSD, alcohol, and who knows what all...I cannot fathom the huge female naked and flailing away in her attamepts to make it onto that stage, but it must have been a terrifying site to The Stones!

Without question, some band members had to fear for their lives as if a hoard of locusts had descended, threatening to devour everything. We do not know if the crowd estimate of 300,000 was known to The Stones at that time. As darkness fell, I'm sure the fear level rose. The fact that these muscians were even capable of carrying on is a tribute to them, no doubt.

I was at Summer Jam at Watkins Glen in 1973, with a reported crowd of over 600,000. In the almost 72 hours I was there, I did not witness one single act of agression, despite the fact that the promoters and Highway Patrol had planned for only 150,000. I say this because in contrast to Altamont, a crowd twice its size under like conditions (if not worse) managed to behave itself from Wedensday night until Sunday morning. This being the last outdoor concert of its kind, and 4 years AFTER both Woodstock and Altamont.

Something was "unique" to Altamont............

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sweetcharmedlife: Why do I have to be either?

You don't. But you just sound like you have some personal involvement in this. Just wondering that's all.

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@#$%&
who brings a gun to a concert anyway?? that's just stupid.

Who brings a pool stick?
Who bring the Angels as Security?

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Baboon Bro

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@#$%&
who brings a gun to a concert anyway?? that's just stupid.

Who brings a pool stick?
Who bring the Angels as Security?

When you really step back and think about it, think about all the chains, knifes and other weapons confiscated by air travelers today. When I was a teenager, it was quite normal to see lock and switch blades, M-80's, brass knuckles, smoke bombs, kanes and cork bats at concerts. I witnessed insane brawls concerts break out in the crowd.

Aerosmith and Van Halen had some near riots break out. Van Halen was so bad they had to stop the concert 4 times due to the fights spilling on to the stage! St. Louis banned them from returning for a year (just so happened the ban was lifted when their next album was released).

Has anyone noticed how we get searched before entering events? This started long before 9-11. I went to see the Rolling Stones in LA at the Coliseum and people were getting searched left and right. Maybe as a result of the Altamont mess, maybe not.

Poor judgment regarding who would provide security is nothing new either. In many cases the security staff have been untrained people off the street that had no business trying to protect anyone. Governor Reagan had the Hells Angles being watched by the CHP. This was a commonly known fact even then. Using a known group of people the cops had their eye on in the first place makes no sense to me either but it happens all the time.

CBII